GDT: GAME #1: Canucks vs. Flames | 7:00 p.m. on HNIC

[Zombotron]

The rest of the lineup was blown away in the storm.​

Click to read more...

 

[Josepho]

nvm that was a good one

 

[y2kcanucks]

LOL. Stupid storm. Blew away Willie's common sense too which is why Horvat is on the fourth line.

 

[clunk]

Think I hate Willie more than Mike Keenan now.

 

[biturbo19]

Should've put that Burr-Bo-Dorsett line at the top of the graphic tbh.


WillieD put Dorsett on the 1st line. Booooooooooooooo.

 

[CherryToke]

I don't understand how anyone can think playing with Dorsett and Burrows is best for Horvats 2-way potential. Running around in your own zone isn't good for anything really. if it does somehow help develop his defensive game it will come at the expense of him struggling offensively. If he loses his confidence offensively it might stunt his growth overall. I would like to see him play in an offensive role and continue to work on faceoffs, and offensive/defensive positioning. No reason he can't do that playing with decent players.

 

[mathonwy]

Watch Bo's deployment. Look at the linemates WD is playing him with. What kind of "honest two-way game" comes with lining up with Burr and Dorsett? By the time they finally fluke their way out of their own zone, they'll only have enough energy to hit centre ice and dump it in for a line change.

Here's a player who struggled with hard defensive assignments, which is no big surprise for a sophomore player. He did start to show life as an offensive player. So now that we've got Sutter back for those hard matchups you'd want a vet for, why not give him those hard matchups and let Bo continue to develop at what he showed aptitude for? You know, the thing we missed most badly last year? Scoring...?

I just don't understand why this is not intuitive.

I feel like I'm arguing the stale core argument here.

2014-15 happened. Yes it did. 2014-15 was the season before last season and it happened.

Posters can try their best to blot this season out of their heads but .. sorry .. it happened.

And in this season, Burr scored 33 points, Dorsett scored 25 points and neither were considered boat anchors.

Please tell me if I'm telling any falsehoods here.

15-16 also happened and 15-16 was a cluster of catastrophic proportions for too many reasons to be listed here.

But to Burr and Dorsett, LOOK AT WHO BOTH PLAYERS WERE PLAYING WITH.

Yes, it makes a difference who a player plays with. The performance of a player does not exist in a vacuum. There is direct correlation between how a player does and the quality of their line mates.

There is ALSO direct correlation between what kind of a effort level one can expect out of a player and the overall state of the team and suffice it to say, stripping the team of all its veteran depth and expecting the remaining veterans to carry the team isn't exactly top notch strategy.

Elite players are elite players because they legitimately make their line mates better. The non-elite players (95% of the league) vary in terms of their ability to drive play and how they affect their teammates.

Burr, has proven himself to be an above average player. He's extremely good at reading the play, he's defensively very sound and once upon a time, he was an extremely good forechecker. What Burr doesn't do is drive play or drive possession. He's good at being part of a possession line but he doesn't have the puckhandling to do it on his own.

Dorsett showed us in 14-15 that he can be an effective winger when he's got other good veteran players driving play for him. Dorsett showed us in 15-16 that he is useless in a traditional 4th line chip-and-chase role because he's too light and he also showed us that he's ok with being crappy if his linemates are also crappy.

Put all three together - Burr-Bo-Dorsett

And you got a line that is MUCH better than a traditional 4th line.

I don't understand what intuition has got to do with this. It's just plain analysis looking at the players involved and taking into consideration their individual histories beyond last season.

 

[JuniorNelson]

Willie rolls lines. The fourth listed unit might have more minutes than another line. Horvat isn't in line hell, he is just being deployed with a grinder and a set-up man. Canucks obviously searching for scoring and they are trying stuff. Burrows feeding a shooting center might unsettle some checking units, no? This might be a scoring unit!

Guance, Sutter, Hansen looks like a checking unit. Baertschi, Granlund and Virtanen do not. Each of these lines has a shooter and a speedy guy. It's not crazy, just far fetched.

 

[Intoewsables]

Should've put that Burr-Bo-Dorsett line at the top of the graphic tbh.


WillieD put Dorsett on the 1st line. Booooooooooooooo.

Any line with Dorsett on it is getting the most ice-time anyway, so yeah.

 

[Nuckles]

Oh boy, another year of terrible coaching and players like Dorsett and Sbisa getting undeserved minutes.

This will probably be the first season opener I don't watch by choice.

 

[lousy]

Oh boy, another year of terrible coaching and players like Dorsett and Sbisa getting undeserved minutes.

This will probably be the first season opener I don't watch by choice.

The hand–wringing beings before the first game has even been played. Watch by choice? Do or do not.

PS

Butts

 

[JA]

Skille is out?

 

[biturbo19]

I don't understand how anyone can think playing with Dorsett and Burrows is best for Horvats 2-way potential. Running around in your own zone isn't good for anything really. if it does somehow help develop his defensive game it will come at the expense of him struggling offensively. If he loses his confidence offensively it might stunt his growth overall. I would like to see him play in an offensive role and continue to work on faceoffs, and offensive/defensive positioning. No reason he can't do that playing with decent players.

While i agree it's kind of insane to think Dorsett specifically is the guy to help Horvat get back to his roots and really succeed...I think the premise behind it is at least somewhat reasonable. I'd call it an A for Idea, F for Execution.


As to the bolded though...Why does Horvat need to be in an "offensive role" to get back to his fundamental strength as a player and grow from there? That seems completely counterintuitive when the core of Horvat's game, and what he was drafted so highly on, was that defensive conscience and potential to be a defensive matchup center who also creates significant offense. Take care of your own house first, and the offense will follow from there. It's like a basic premise of responsible two-way hockey. Bo himself would tell you that.

Horvat+Dorsett is booo. But Horvat playing a defence-first role is not booo. It's entirely reasonable, and taking a long-term view of his development as an important core piece of this team's future. The heir apparent #2C ought to be able to handle cruddy 40-45% OZone starts distribution, while still producing. And DZone skewed starts inherently come with tough competition matchups.


I think you really have to ask yourself how much difference there even is between our various Bottom-9 wingers as well. They all have different niches and strengths/weaknesses, some have a bit more upside (Bae offensively, Hansen defensively)...but it's pretty much just a collection of 25-35pt guys. We've got 3 "third lines" basically.


Upshot is that the Flames defence really isn't that deep. Either Gulutzan goes full Willie and splits Giordano/Brodie/Hamilton on each different pairing...or their 3rd pairing ends up possibly worse than ours and rife for exploitation by whatever line draws that matchup...and their 2nd pair is sporting a wonky wheel that may or may not hold up as well.

 

[Nuckles]

The hand–wringing beings before the first game has even been played. Watch by choice? Do or do not.

PS

Butts

Don't watch by choice as in I have maybe missed one or two past season openers because of commitments that had me occupied.

 

[lousy]

Don't watch by choice as in I have maybe missed one or two past season openers because of commitments that had me occupied.

Ah, I got you. I still don't understand why you would give up so soon though.

edit:

err just re-read things. I am slow tonight.

 

[Huggy]

ZOMBO GDT

GO CANUCKS GO

BOO WILLIE BOO

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[NucksRuleYep]

7-2 canucks

Granlund with the Hat Trick

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I feel like I'm arguing the stale core argument here.

2014-15 happened. Yes it did. 2014-15 was the season before last season and it happened.

Posters can try their best to blot this season out of their heads but .. sorry .. it happened.

And in this season, Burr scored 33 points, Dorsett scored 25 points and neither were considered boat anchors.

Please tell me if I'm telling any falsehoods here.

15-16 also happened and 15-16 was a cluster of catastrophic proportions for too many reasons to be listed here.

But to Burr and Dorsett, LOOK AT WHO BOTH PLAYERS WERE PLAYING WITH.

Yes, it makes a difference who a player plays with. The performance of a player does not exist in a vacuum. There is direct correlation between how a player does and the quality of their line mates.

There is ALSO direct correlation between what kind of a effort level one can expect out of a player and the overall state of the team and suffice it to say, stripping the team of all its veteran depth and expecting the remaining veterans to carry the team isn't exactly top notch strategy.

Elite players are elite players because they legitimately make their line mates better. The non-elite players (95% of the league) vary in terms of their ability to drive play and how they affect their teammates.

Burr, has proven himself to be an above average player. He's extremely good at reading the play, he's defensively very sound and once upon a time, he was an extremely good forechecker. What Burr doesn't do is drive play or drive possession. He's good at being part of a possession line but he doesn't have the puckhandling to do it on his own.

Dorsett showed us in 14-15 that he can be an effective winger when he's got other good veteran players driving play for him. Dorsett showed us in 15-16 that he is useless in a traditional 4th line chip-and-chase role because he's too light and he also showed us that he's ok with being crappy if his linemates are also crappy.

Put all three together - Burr-Bo-Dorsett

And you got a line that is MUCH better than a traditional 4th line.

I don't understand what intuition has got to do with this. It's just plain analysis looking at the players involved and taking into consideration their individual histories beyond last season.

Okay. If you want to pretend Burr's the same player he was 2 seasons ago and hasn't lost a step, fine.

You really think an offence-starved team should be using its second best offensive centre as a 4th line defensive checker? Swell.

Pass me some of what you're smoking. I'm gonna need some by...ooo about 7:30, 8ish tomorrow night.

 

[CherryToke]

As to the bolded though...Why does Horvat need to be in an "offensive role" to get back to his fundamental strength as a player and grow from there? That seems completely counterintuitive when the core of Horvat's game, and what he was drafted so highly on, was that defensive conscience and potential to be a defensive matchup center who also creates significant offense. Take care of your own house first, and the offense will follow from there. It's like a basic premise of responsible two-way hockey. Bo himself would tell you that.

Why does he need to play with 4th liners to get back to his fundamental strength as a player? Why not play him with actual two-way players like Hansen who he's already proven to have chemistry with and played his best hockey with?

 

[JA]

As to the bolded though...Why does Horvat need to be in an "offensive role" to get back to his fundamental strength as a player and grow from there? That seems completely counterintuitive when the core of Horvat's game, and what he was drafted so highly on, was that defensive conscience and potential to be a defensive matchup center who also creates significant offense. Take care of your own house first, and the offense will follow from there. It's like a basic premise of responsible two-way hockey. Bo himself would tell you that.

If you don't nurture the offensive abilities of a defence-first player, sometimes they remain a defence-only player. It's already difficult as it is for most prospects to develop NHL-level offense; reducing their ice time will only neuter their development.

Canucks high on Guelph's Malhotra: Vancouver clearly covets defenceman Brad Stuart but is keeping all avenues open.: [Final Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 24 June 1998: C5.

...

Armed with this knowledge, there is obvious reason to doubt the Canucks' stated happiness to select defenceman Bryan Allen at No. 4 if fellow blueliner Brad Stuart goes No. 3 in Buffalo, site of Saturday's big show. Vancouver clearly covets Stuart and will almost certainly take him if he is available but it is no slam dunk that Allen will follow Stuart like a lamb following Mary.

The wild card is Manny Malhotra, the impressive centre from the Memorial Cup finalist Guelph Storm.

Scouts know all about Stuart, his offensive capabilities and his big shot. They are convinced Allen is a punishing hitter with a mean streak. What they can't figure out is whether Malhotra will be able to produce offensively or merely become a glorified checker.

"Manny is an outstanding kid and a complete player," said Guelph general Alan Miller. "He's extremely hard working, very responsible at both ends of the rink and will do anything for his teammates. His character and leadership capabilities are unbelievable."

At 6'2" and 210 pounds, the Mississauga product has NHL size. But at 16 goals and 51 points in 57 Ontario Hockey League games, there are legitimate doubts about his ability to finish.

"I'd like to take a look at other 17-year-olds in major junior hockey who, for the most part, checked the top 18 and 19-year-olds in the country and were able to put up big numbers," Miller said. "Manny centred the line that checked David Legwand in our league semi-finals and shut him down. He checked Ottawa's top line in our final and did the same thing at the Memorial Cup. When a player is put in that situation, it's tough to put up big numbers. Yet he still scored nine goals in the playoffs.

"What he's going to lack in the odd goal, his wingers will get. I really believe Manny is a guy who makes everybody on the ice better. You don't like to put pressure on kids and compare them to people but Rod Brind'Amour comes to mind."

Malhotra earned raves for his work at the Memorial Cup, where Guelph fell short by one goal, and was described by many as the best player in the showcase tournament. He is rated at No. 4 on the respected Hockey News list, one spot ahead of Allen. Central Scouting has Malhotra sixth.

"Manny Malhotra's name and his ability keep popping up," admitted Canuck chief amateur scout Jack Birch. "This guy is a work horse and he's got better hands than people give him credit for. He led his team at the Memorial Cup as an 17-year-old which I felt was another indication of his character. In terms of physical development, he is a specimen right now.

...

Manny Malhotra was drafted as a two-way forward. He was played in a defensive role in the NHL and developed into exactly that type of player. He was a near-point-per-game player in the OHL during his draft season, as was Bo Horvat. Is that our objective with Horvat, or do we want him to be more than that? His development over the past few seasons has shown that he can be more than the player he was drafted to be, so why slow his offensive growth?

NHL ENTRY DRAFT Lecavalier goes No. 1 No surprise as Lightning selects Rimouski star
Daily Gleaner [Fredericton, N.B] 29 June 1998.

...

Seventh in line were the New York Rangers, and they snapped up Guelph Storm centre Manny Malhotra, 18, who scored 16 goals and assisted on 35 in 57 OHL games. A two-way, 6-1 forward with strong leadership qualities, Malhotra knows he'll have to pick up the pace to make it to the next level.

...

 

[ProstheticConscience]

What really pisses me off about Horvat being on the 4th line is it shows that the arbitrary player evaluation and assignments are still in full swing. They just seem to make their minds up about players regardless to any kind of track record or stats or anything beyond their own frequently wrong gut feelings.

Anyway, season opener beckons. I hope whatever virus I've been nurturing for the last week finally goes away, the lump in my throat stops being the size of a golf ball, and I can crack a beer in celebration instead of heating up the kettle for another Neo Citran.

Go Canucks.

Yay.

 

[Bougieman]

Flames are going to be smarting from getting knocked around by the Oilers. Elliot didn't look very good in those games, and he's a proud guy. I expect that he'll play much better tonight.

Canucks will have to be ready to play, and pretty dang good to get one over on the Flames, who are already warmed up and pissed off.

My prediction is a 5 - 3 final for the Flames. Two of three Canucks goals will come from the Sedin line, and the other will be Sutter's.

 

[timorousme]

Switch Horvat with Granlund and I don't mind the forward group.

 

[biturbo19]

Why does he need to play with 4th liners to get back to his fundamental strength as a player? Why not play him with actual two-way players like Hansen who he's already proven to have chemistry with and played his best hockey with?

He doesn't. And i completely agree it's asinine that Bo is not playing with Hansen given the situation. I'm extremely unhappy with Horvat playing with Dorsett too.

But by and large, our wingers are fairly close in quality. Just with different niches and strengths/weaknesses. We've got a massive collection of like 8 "3rd line forwards" of various assorted brands. And it wouldn't shock me at all to see Horvat end up with more minutes than Granlund.

It's just the idea of sliding Horvat into more of a defensive/matchup role has some merit imo, in getting him back to basics and back on track to hopefully become the stud 2-way matchup #2C we all hope and expect he could one day become. Poorly executed in the form of Derek Dorsett as a linemate...but a decent enough concept otherwise.

If you don't nurture the offensive abilities of a defence-first player, sometimes they remain a defence-only player. It's already difficult as it is for most prospects to develop NHL-level offense; reducing their ice time will only neuter their development.

Manny Malhotra was drafted as a two-way forward. He was played in a defensive role in the NHL and developed into exactly that type of player. He was a near-point-per-game player in the OHL during his draft season, as was Bo Horvat. Is that our objective with Horvat, or do we want him to be more than that? His development over the past few seasons has shown that he can be more than the player he was drafted to be, so why slow his offensive growth?

Horvat has already shown many miles more offensive instinct than Manny ever showed - even with scrap linemates and in way over his head as a rookie. Hence all the clamoring for Bo to be put in some silly "pure offense" role to kick off this season. Malhotra was always a complete black hole offensively. Being asked to focus on his own zone first wasn't the problem there. The problem was that Malhotra simply didn't have an offensive bone in his body. He never in his long career matched Horvat's sophomore season total. It just wasn't ever in him to be a true "2 way forward". He was a 1-way forward...the defensive way.

Ultimately, if asking Horvat to play a responsible game in his own end and saddling him with a tough load of defensive zone faceoffs in his 3rd NHL season somehow "destroys" his offensive instincts, then frankly i'm highly skeptical there was ever that much natural offensive ability there to begin with. Though i can't really fathom that actually being a serious scenario that unfolds. Horvat has the potential to be a special player...if he can develop his defensive game to expectations, in addition to generating that 2nd line type offense. That might take time to find the right balance. It's hard to really find fault with having him build out from his defensive game...the exact same way the kid burst onto the scene through his Junior career to eventually become a "surprise" Top-10 pick in the NHL Entry Draft.

 

[Verbalyst]

I'm perfectly fine with Bo's deployment to begin this year. I recall in his rookie season Bo had developed quite the chemistry with Dorsett and playing with him played a big part in his breakthrough. A lot of you are upset Stecher didn't make the team but for some reason you aren't ok with Granlund getting a look on a scoring line. Granlund was our best forward in the preseason. He earned this spot. While Bo was mediocre in the preseason. You can't be upset when someone earns their keep. Baertschi mentioned that he loved playing with Granlund when we first traded for Markus. Let's give it a shot. Be optimistic about something for once please lol