Salary Cap: Future Roster Building (2017-18 and beyond) Pt. 2 | Contract/FA charts in Post #1

[Shady Machine]

The more I think about it, just go after Kane. Botterill is sure to like a piece we have to offer. He helped acquire/draft them.

Kane produces best at ES. Natural LW where we're a bit shallow at in terms of quality depth and size. Skates extremely well. Will create the type of up tempo pressure game we like to play. And I'd like to see what Tocchet can do with him.

He's got issues, but it's one year left on his deal. It works out, our forward group is about as ideal as it gets. It doesn't, he walks.

The discipline and penalties are the issue I have with him. We just saw in game 1 how a selfish penalty from Neal can impact a game. Do you trust Kane to not take selfish penalties? I'm not convinced.

 

[Winger for Hire]

This isn't entirely true. I'm not saying that the guys you listed above stops 100% of the cheap stuff, but I can't remember a time when we had toughness where Sid would be targeted the entire game the way he is now.

On top of that, it's not about just prevention. It's about letting a team know if you are going to go that route against Sid or any other skilled player, your favorite teammate might be eating some boards sometime soon.

Last night I saw the Pens target Ekholm after his crap. Cullen, Kunitz and Malkin all went out of their way to let them know the team wasn't happy with his crap.

Some will say that's enough, that's fair. But others, including JR, may want to see a truly scary guy who makes a much more emphatic point. This could have occurred late in the 3rd last night and the Pens wouldn't be any worse off as we sit here today.

I get where you're coming with your line of thinking.

BUT, where I get off the train is when I actually try to figure out HOW those players will stop said cheap shots and out of control guys. It's either going to be an eye for an eye type thing after Sid/Geno/Letang is laid out or it's going to be preventative and probably cost some games (in the standings or suspensions).

I get getting some tough, skilled guys (Oshie, Simmonds, younger Dustin Brown, etc), but 1) those guys are far from cheap (Cap dollars and/or trade assets) if you're not developing them yourself and 2) if you step down in skill to knock the price down, they're not playing with Sid/Geno and lose usefulness.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

The JR comments about having to get one or two guys who are tough is making me wonder if he'd be interested in E. Kane.

I think the kid's a ****ing moron because of all the **** he's pulled off the ice, and the way he was run out of Atlanta/Winnipeg by his own teammates (Byfuglien making him dress in the hallway as opposed to the lockerroom, throwing his track suit in the shower because it went against the team's dress code, guys speaking very candidly about him in interviews, etc).

But, the kid's extremely talented, a fantastic skater, big, strong and tough as nails. If JR and Sullivan think that this team can correct all of his off-ice garbage with a combination of Sully's coaching with the presence of Sid and Geno, I wonder if JR goes after E. Kane this summer.

I don't know. I really, really wouldn't want a known lockerroom disaster and schmuck off the ice to come in and potentially **** up one of this team's greatest strengths--being a tight-knit group that wholly buys in to what Sully preaches, to a man. There's a huge possibility that E. Kane comes in and completely throws a wrench in that. But, at the same time, there's real potential that if anyone in the league can straighten him out, it's Sully, Sid and Geno.

His size, speed and style are incredibly intriguing, but that off-ice ****... Eh.

They have no incentive to eat salary. Staal is worth 6MM to Carolina and they really have no incentive to move him unless he's miserable there.

Yeah, pretty much. I didn't mean it was going to happen, but that's what needed to happen in order to even open up the possibility of Staal's return.




And I'm pretty sure everyone knows my stance regarding Maatta as a Penguin long-term. That being said, you don't expose him unless you know for sure Vegas is picking Fleury. You can't lose an asset as valuable as Maatta for absolutely no return. I'm by no means against moving the guy, but I'm adamant that he's got significant value around the league and would bring back a great return if we package him with other assets.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

For pretty much the entire playoffs I've thought that:

a) The refs are letting a lot of stuff go (aside from kind of just sucking for a large part of the playoffs).

b) This has been the way the playoffs have been reffed since the beginning of time and is no different this year.

c) Every team has a choice to adjust their game accordingly, or have faith in the way they play instead. Some people seem to want their cake and eat it too (high flying team with a league that calls the game in a way that fully benefits them on top of it).

We seem to be managing just fine. Usually teams retaliate and get into scraps to fight fire with fire. We don't because we prefer sticking to the plan. I don't see the problem. If we had lost at any point in these playoffs it wouldn't be because the refs or because the league, it'd be because we needed to make alterations to the team. Maybe those alterations would be in the form of a little bit of toughness, maybe not, but you don't establish a philosophy then put the blame on outside elements when things don't go your way. Thankfully we haven't had to do that anyways.

I know this might sound blasphemous but I don't want every team in the league to play just like the Penguins do. I love skating, players that can actually pass, and offense in general. I also enjoy hard-nosed but skillful defense and checkers that can play a well-rounded game. We are actually the exception instead of the rule anyways. Edmonton will be too. No one else can copy what we do because they don't have the talent to start with that we do. You're going to have different styles, and I think that's a good thing.

 

[PensandCaps]

I really don't care about " protecting" Crosby/Malkin. if the NHL doesn't stop it, it wont matter who you have on the team to protect them, there will still be cheap shots. Although, please please waste a CBJ game next year and lay out Dubinsky (nothing Dirty, just a big clean hit, Maybe a fight too)

 

[billybudd]

Matt Martin's better than Rowney and Kuhnhackl, imo. He's also expensive and not available.

I'd love to get some tougher players who can play, but they're just not out there. I can think of three who might be available: Tom Wilson, Wayne Simmonds and Evander Kane. The first two are non-starters unless we were to swing a 3 way deal (and Wilson's so dumb that he could be argued to be a net negative) and the last guy is a disruption.

If Wayne Simmonds were ever a Penguin, I'd rent out a hall and throw a party, but I really don't see how that would be possible.

 

[Shady Machine]

For pretty much the entire playoffs I've thought that:

a) The refs are letting a lot of stuff go (aside from kind of just sucking for a large part of the playoffs).

b) This has been the way the playoffs have been reffed since the beginning of time and is no different this year.

c) Every team has a choice to adjust their game accordingly, or have faith in the way they play instead. Some people seem to want their cake and eat it too (high flying team with a league that calls the game in a way that fully benefits them on top of it).

We seem to be managing just fine. Usually teams retaliate and get into scraps to fight fire with fire. We don't because we prefer sticking to the plan. I don't see the problem. If we had lost at any point in these playoffs it wouldn't be because the refs or because the league, it'd be because we needed to make alterations to the team. Maybe those alterations would be in the form of a little bit of toughness, maybe not, but you don't establish a philosophy then put the blame on outside elements when things don't go your way. Thankfully we haven't had to do that anyways.

I know this might sound blasphemous but I don't want every team in the league to play just like the Penguins do. I love skating, players that can actually pass, and offense in general. I also enjoy hard-nosed but skillful defense and checkers that can play a well-rounded game. We are actually the exception instead of the rule anyways. Edmonton will be too. No one else can copy what we do because they don't have the talent to start with that we do. You're going to have different styles, and I think that's a good thing.

I agree with a lot of this post, but hard nosed and skillful defense SHOULDN'T include repeatedly cross checking dudes in the head/neck/ribs, slashing, spearing, jabbing players constantly, and punches to the face. The league is letting that **** impact the game instead of calling the penalties. I think the Pens approach of just playing is the best one for them, but that doesn't mean I have to approve of the way the league officiates.

 

[Shady Machine]

Matt Martin's better than Rowney and Kuhnhackl, imo. He's also expensive and not available.

I'd love to get some tougher players who can play, but they're just not out there. I can think of three who might be available: Tom Wilson, Wayne Simmonds and Evander Kane. The first two are non-starters unless we were to swing a 3 way deal (and Wilson's so dumb that he could be argued to be a net negative) and the last guy is a disruption.

If Wayne Simmonds were ever a Penguin, I'd rent out a hall and throw a party, but I really don't see how that would be possible.

Yeah for sure Martin is better than them and I'd love to have him but when players like him are available, they get overpaid.

Agreed with the rest of the post as well. You have to develop these guys in house (and often spend a 1st rounder on a guy that might only be a 3rd/4th liner like Wilson) or overpay for them.

 

[mpp9]

The discipline and penalties are the issue I have with him. We just saw in game 1 how a selfish penalty from Neal can impact a game. Do you trust Kane to not take selfish penalties? I'm not convinced.

I have a feeling it's something JR might be willing to take a chance on. When Bobby Orr is calling the head of the league complaining about how our star player is being treated, you can bet Mario is even more pissed and letting management know that.

I'd take the chance on a one year deal.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I agree with a lot of this post, but hard nosed and skillful defense SHOULDN'T include repeatedly cross checking dudes in the head/neck/ribs, slashing, spearing, jabbing players constantly, and punches to the face. The league is letting that **** impact the game instead of calling the penalties. I think the Pens approach of just playing is the best one for them, but that doesn't mean I have to approve of the way the league officiates.

Of course it is, look at the results the past 2 years. But at what point does Sid tire of the abuse? It's easy to say "play through it" when it's not your face getting smashed with a stick.

Sid is a much better man than me for it was I who took that shot from Nisky, I would have went after him in a deliberate and dangerous manner. This topic cuts multiple ways. We don't really know what conversations Sid has had with Mario or JR on the topic. My guess is we will have a little more insight upon seeing the roster to start next year.

 

[Shady Machine]

I have a feeling it's something JR might be willing to take a chance on. When Bobby Orr is calling the head of the league complaining about how our star player is being treated, you can bet Mario is even more pissed and letting management know that.

I'd take the chance on a one year deal.

Yeah I won't say no, to be honest. I'm just pointing out my concerns. I think Kane has a lot of talent and assets that fit this team's identity, I just worry about price and discipline (both on and off the ice).

 

[PensandCaps]

Matt Martin had 9 points in 82 games, im not sure hes better than players the leafs have in the AHL, let alone Kuhn, who had 16 points in 57 games. while being ALOT cheaper.

 

[mpp9]

Matt Martin's better than Rowney and Kuhnhackl, imo. He's also expensive and not available.

I'd love to get some tougher players who can play, but they're just not out there. I can think of three who might be available: Tom Wilson, Wayne Simmonds and Evander Kane. The first two are non-starters unless we were to swing a 3 way deal (and Wilson's so dumb that he could be argued to be a net negative) and the last guy is a disruption.

If Wayne Simmonds were ever a Penguin, I'd rent out a hall and throw a party, but I really don't see how that would be possible.

Kane's the better fit than Simmonds, IMO. Like PH, Simmonds goes MIA at ES a lot. And it's not like we can guarantee him a spot on our PP since that's PH's main strength.

 

[Shady Machine]

Of course it is, look at the results the past 2 years. But at what point does Sid tire of the abuse? It's easy to say "play through it" when it's not your face getting smashed with a stick.

Sid is a much better man than me for it was I who took that shot from Nisky, I would have went after him in a deliberate and dangerous manner. This topic cuts multiple ways. We don't really know what conversations Sid has had with Mario or JR on the topic. My guess is we will have a little more insight upon seeing the roster to start next year.

I don't doubt Sid is tired of it, but does getting a player that will cross check Nisky right back in the face do any good? I'm not convinced it stops anything. You obviously believes it helps.

I can buy that it might make Sid feel better from a mental perspective knowing he has a teammate that will take issue with it and react back.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

The fact that JR even has to address this situation is embarrassing for the NHL. This stems from a non-existent Dept. of Player Safety and an officiating crew that's so laughably bad that egregious things go uncalled on a nightly basis against all teams around the league.

This isn't a "stuff is called differently in the playoffs" issue, though that is definitely true. This is a "stuff isn't called every single night that should be, and would clean up the game and make it safer for the guys playing it" issue.

The real change that needs to be made is the NHL has to hold meetings all summer long to sort out it's officiating disaster, and it's DoPS needs a complete overhaul. Call games by the book, ignore the score, don't have petty grudges against certain players/teams.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I agree with a lot of this post, but hard nosed and skillful defense SHOULDN'T include repeatedly cross checking dudes in the head/neck/ribs, slashing, spearing, jabbing players constantly, and punches to the face. The league is letting that **** impact the game instead of calling the penalties. I think the Pens approach of just playing is the best one for them, but that doesn't mean I have to approve of the way the league officiates.

Yeah I don't mean to say that everything they're letting go should be let go, but I do think a lot of it is par for the course honestly. We're just not a team that's built to benefit from doing it ourselves.

Of course it is, look at the results the past 2 years. But at what point does Sid tire of the abuse? It's easy to say "play through it" when it's not your face getting smashed with a stick.

Sid is a much better man than me for it was I who took that shot from Nisky, I would have went after him in a deliberate and dangerous manner. This topic cuts multiple ways. We don't really know what conversations Sid has had with Mario or JR on the topic. My guess is we will have a little more insight upon seeing the roster to start next year.

Sid has been around for 12 years now. He knows the deal.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I don't think Sid is getting any more abuse than usual. He's been getting hacked, whacked, cross-checked and sucker punched since he was 15 years old. We've all seen it through the years. It's a game-by-game basis that Sid has to play through a ton of garbage that doesn't constitute a hockey play and shouldn't be in the game.

There is no real deterrent factor with guys like Godard or anything like that, I don't think. Even when we had guys like that, multiple tough guys (Godard, Rupp, Asham, Engelland) Sid and Geno still got targeted and abused on a nightly basis. As depressing and unrealistic as it is to say, the only way things change is if the NHL steps up it's Player Safety and officiating standards by about a thousand-fold.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Yeah I don't mean to say that everything they're letting go should be let go, but I do think a lot of it is par for the course honestly. We're just not a team that's built to benefit from doing it ourselves.



Sid has been around for 12 years now. He knows the deal.

Trust me, the older you get, the less tolerance you have for certain things in life. I would bet anything Sid is seeing red and I would hate to see him walk away the same way Mario did all those years ago if we can somehow prevent it.

Edit for a question: Do the Pens not have an obligation to Sid to try and protect his health by every means available?

 

[Richard]

Honestly, if I were Sid and the Penguins I would have the first questionable cheap shot on sid I'd have sid shut it down until playoffs. Go on long term injury reserve. Grab a 7M player at the deadline.


F the NHL

 

[CertifiedLurker]

Matt Martin had 9 points in 82 games, im not sure hes better than players the leafs have in the AHL, let alone Kuhn, who had 16 points in 57 games. while being ALOT cheaper.

Matt Martin is something this team definitely does NOT need. He has very little actual hockey skill.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Kane's the better fit than Simmonds, IMO. Like PH, Simmonds goes MIA at ES a lot. And it's not like we can guarantee him a spot on our PP since that's PH's main strength.

You mean we couldn't guarantee a spot for Hornqvist if the Pens somehow acquired Simmonds.

 

[mpp9]

You mean we couldn't guarantee a spot for Hornqvist if the Pens somehow acquired Simmonds.

It's pointless to discuss. Flyers ain't trading Simmonds to us.

 

[Clatartar]

So go into the off season wanting kane, come out with an extended Kunitz?

 

[Riptide]

Right, but if he is such a valuable commodity, they should be able to trade him for a nice piece in return.

For what nice piece though?

You cannot just trade him just for the sake of trading him - even if you get a good return. Additionally, the moment you do trade him, you need to go find another top 4D to take up his minutes. Sure if we manage to win back to back cups, this might be easier... but it's still a hole we'd have to fill. And depending on who we're getting back, a hole we'd have even less cap space then we're projected to have now to fill it.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Trust me, the older you get, the less tolerance you have for certain things in life. I would bet anything Sid is seeing red and I would hate to see him walk away the same way Mario did all those years ago if we can somehow prevent it.

Edit for a question: Do the Pens not have an obligation to Sid to try and protect his health by every means available?

If they could prevent it I'd be interested, but they can't.