Salary Cap: Future Roster Building (2017-18 and beyond) Pt. 2 | Contract/FA charts in Post #1

[Penske]

Next season I'd like to see a Phil Kessel Powerplay and a Crosby/Malkin powerplay. Phil doesn't do well with both of them, there is simply not enough pucks to go around.

He was 3rd in the league for PP points. Seems to do alright

 

[Shady Machine]

Getting a rugged player or two is overhauling the roster and taking us back to 70s hockey? Really?

No. You missed my point. What I'm suggesting is that in order to be successful, teams generally need an identity. The players you acquire need to help build that identity. I believe the times of having a rugged 4th line that only plays 5-8 minutes ES are over and you need 4 lines that fit your identity.

If the Pens go out and get 1-2 rugged players with the specific intent on protecting Crosby, does that change their identity? Do those players fit into the identity of the Penguins?

My concern is that having players focused on protecting Crosby might take the team's focus off the 'just play' mentality and discipline that Sullivan has preached to this team. They've been extremely successful by turning the other cheek, mostly staying out of the scrums, not retaliating, and just playing hockey. We've seen this team get thrown off in the past by resorting to trying to play to other team's identities (see Flyers series in 2012 and even Boston series in 2013). It hasn't worked.

Now if you can go find a skilled player with speed, size, physicality + ability to punch, and doesn't have a knack for taking stupid, undisciplined penalties, then sign me up. However, I would guess along the way to finding that player, you might run into a few unicorns.

 

[GenoMachino71]

Which is why I brought this up. I'm curious at what people here think the return for Phil would be alone or if packaged with a guy like Maata. It's a fun way to look at the roster for next year.

Imagine the trade to Colorado if we packaged say Phil, Olli and Wilson, interesting stuff would be coming back.

packaging Kessel/Maatta is ALOT of money between the two of them.... so that could be tough

if I'm looking to move Kessel, I'd be looking to cut salary in the process unless I'm getting a legit top 4 DMan back.... I'd look for 2 younger/cheaper players plus 1-2 high draft picks.... help reload the system maybe not for next season, but for the next 5 seasons....

and then if they want to reinvest some of that money into a free agent forward, whether a legit top 6 or someone to help bridge the gap until Sprong is ready to be a top 6/9 guy, so be it..... or maybe they'd use that money for help on the blue line

 

[Shady Machine]

I dont think they will, but I wouldnt dismiss it by calling Madden an idiot

you can make a case that Kessel is no longer in his prime and will start to decline over the next few years.... he hasnt scored 30 goals in the past 3 seasons

maybe they think it would be smart long term term to cash on him maybe 1 or 2 years too early than have him decline and be stuck with his contract for 2-3 years when he's not worth it

and lets be honest.... he's not the ideal Mike Sullivan player

with Sheary, Guentzel, Rust, and Sprong around, there is still young/cheap top 6 level talent.... plus Hornqvist is around for at least 1 more season.... and it sounds like they want to add a top 6 power forward type player than can play with/protect Sid

I dont think it's an absurd idea and might be a smart business move

No one is going to pay you dollar for dollar on Phil Kessel with his restrictive no trade clause, cap hit (even at 6.8MM, he's highly compensated), and still perceived idea that he isn't the type of player you build around.

Also, sure he hasn't scored 30 goals, but he's also a far more versatile offensive player than people give him credit for. He just put up 70 points this year (the most since his 37 goal 80 point campaign in '13-14) and had 20 points in 21 playoff games this year.

 

[PensandCaps]

Huh? Daley is like 32 right? That is certainly not "too old."

Convention wisdom used to be that a dman only hit his prime from 28-35. I guess that isn't true anymore?

Most players Primes are 22-28.

anyway, daley is like 36

oh. hes 33, 34 to start next season. looks much older. Anyway, based off his play this year, no way i want to bring him back.

 

[Shwag33]

I hope you're right. A message needs sent by the Pens that crosschecks to Sid's head, eye gouges, bowling over Murray, etc are no longer acceptable. Barring a collapse of epic proportions, we're a virtual lock for the playoffs, so if it costs us a few games in December who really cares.

Inevitable retaliation? Do you mean like when guys run Sid, and our guy runs their guy, you hope that Sid doesn't get hurt when they'll run him again in retaliation for us running their guy? That's like the bullied kid who's afraid to fight back because they may get beat up worse for making the bully mad.

A lot of people say this kind of stuff now, but in december there will be pages of *****ing and complaining; after a 2-0 loss.

 

[Shady Machine]

Most players Primes are 22-28.

anyway, daley is like 36

oh. hes 33. looks much older. Anyway, based off his play this year, no way i want to bring him back.

Correction - Most FORWARDS are in their primes from 22-28. Dmen take longer to mature and their primes are probably in the 25 - to mid 30's. The problem with Daley is that his major asset is his skating and he broke his ankle last year and has had knee issues this year. You have to ask yourself if he's going to be the same skater during his next contract. Plus this is likely his last chance at a longer term contract. If he wants it, the Pens should move on.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Kessel, being on a team that actually can supplement him, doesn't have to score 30, 35, 40 goals anymore. He's shown to be a pretty good passer and dished out 47 helpers this year.

I'd be hard pressed to move him anytime in the next 2 years.

Not to mention how insanely durable he is. I don't think I have to remind Pens fans how awesome that is.

 

[Shady Machine]

Obviously the goal is to win the Cup every year.

But, if we go back to back, Sid and Geno will have accomplished more than any Pens players in history. Maybe JR and co are placing more emphasis on trying to keep them happy and healthy as they skate off into the sunset? For the life of me I just can't understand how having Matt Martin or Patrick Maroon over Tom Kuhnackl or Scott Wilson destroys our team identity and Cup chances.

Do you want to allocate 2.5 per x 4 years for Matt Martin vs 600K for Kuhnhackl?

There's the rub. Rugged 4th liners (who by the way, aren't going to be on the ice with Crosby for any length of time) that can actually play hockey cost more than our cap structure allows us to spend.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Do you want to allocate 2.5 per x 4 years for Matt Martin vs 600K for Kuhnhackl?

There's the rub. Rugged 4th liners (who by the way, aren't going to be on the ice with Crosby for any length of time) that can actually play hockey cost more than our cap structure allows us to spend.

Not to mention that those "rugged 4th liners" turn into Tanner Glass and Craig Adams faster than you notice.

 

[GenoMachino71]

No one is going to pay you dollar for dollar on Phil Kessel with his restrictive no trade clause, cap hit (even at 6.8MM, he's highly compensated), and still perceived idea that he isn't the type of player you build around.

Also, sure he hasn't scored 30 goals, but he's also a far more versatile offensive player than people give him credit for. He just put up 70 points this year (the most since his 37 goal 80 point campaign in '13-14) and had 20 points in 21 playoff games this year.

depends on what you consider dollar for dollar.... I dont expect an all star player in return for him

if they traded him, I'd expect it to get younger/cheaper in terms of maybe 1 NHL ready player now, and then a combination of 2-3 prospects/high draft picks

and you'd have to look at part of the deal as opening up cap space right now and getting out of a contract that still has another 5 years or so at a high cap hit

like I said.... I dont expect it to happen.... but from a business standpoint, I dont think it's off the table like some people may think

hypothetically, if I told you they could trade Kessel for a 22 year old 3rd line center making less than $1 million per season, a potential 2nd pairing DMan prospect who may be 1 year away, and a 2017 1st and 2nd round pick (in the teens), and they would spend that $5+ million that opens up in free agency, would you consider that package?

because that would not be a dollar for dollar deal.... and would not make the Penguins a better team in 2018 (unless they used that money and signed like TJ Oshie or a legit top 6 forward/top 4 DMan)..... but you could make a case that deal would greatly help the Penguins over the next 5 years

 

[PensandCaps]

Correction - Most FORWARDS are in their primes from 22-28. Dmen take longer to mature and their primes are probably in the 25 - to mid 30's. The problem with Daley is that his major asset is his skating and he broke his ankle last year and has had knee issues this year. You have to ask yourself if he's going to be the same skater during his next contract. Plus this is likely his last chance at a longer term contract. If he wants it, the Pens should move on.

yah, That sounds right, Dmen take longer to develop.

Gotta think alot of teams will be wanting Daley, coming off of Two cup runs, so his value will be inflated, a team may give him a 3 yr deal worth over 3 mil per, And That's just to much for a guy who has been bad 90% of the time this year.

 

[Terrapin]

No. You missed my point. What I'm suggesting is that in order to be successful, teams generally need an identity. The players you acquire need to help build that identity. I believe the times of having a rugged 4th line that only plays 5-8 minutes ES are over and you need 4 lines that fit your identity.

If the Pens go out and get 1-2 rugged players with the specific intent on protecting Crosby, does that change their identity? Do those players fit into the identity of the Penguins?

My concern is that having players focused on protecting Crosby might take the team's focus off the 'just play' mentality and discipline that Sullivan has preached to this team. They've been extremely successful by turning the other cheek, mostly staying out of the scrums, not retaliating, and just playing hockey. We've seen this team get thrown off in the past by resorting to trying to play to other team's identities (see Flyers series in 2012 and even Boston series in 2013). It hasn't worked.

Now if you can go find a skilled player with speed, size, physicality + ability to punch, and doesn't have a knack for taking stupid, undisciplined penalties, then sign me up. However, I would guess along the way to finding that player, you might run into a few unicorns.

You don't need the 18 fastest skaters on the planet to be successful. We're proving that this year. Our speed hasn't been a huge factor in most games this playoffs. Also, many people here are under the impression anyone that plays with an edge has the skill and skating ability of Steve Mcintyre. It's simply not the case.

And I understand the mental scarring people still have from that Flyers series. But that was 6 years ago. There's what, 3 or 4 players from that roster left? Not to mention a new coach. And that series was humiliating more due to Fleury playing like a 7 years old than us trying to beat up Philly.

You're right, we have been successful turning the other cheek. But for how much longer? How many more head shots do Sid, Letang, and Murray have to take before they miss significant time?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Correction - Most FORWARDS are in their primes from 22-28. Dmen take longer to mature and their primes are probably in the 25 - to mid 30's. The problem with Daley is that his major asset is his skating and he broke his ankle last year and has had knee issues this year. You have to ask yourself if he's going to be the same skater during his next contract. Plus this is likely his last chance at a longer term contract. If he wants it, the Pens should move on.

I question his lower body right now, tbh. He wasn't the same player for most of the season after the ankle injury, he's had knee problems this year and he's only managed a couple of those good Daley games in the playoffs. His skating hasn't been bad but I question if his legs are what they used to be already. It's a shame.

If it was something like 2x2 it would be interesting but he's not going to do that.

 

[Winger for Hire]

How many more head shots do Sid, Letang, and Murray have to take before they miss significant time?

They have been taking heads shots and cheap shots and cross checks and slashes even with gritty, rugged guys on the roster like Malone, Talbot, Glass, Engo, Asham, etc.

Having these guys on the roster isn't going to stop that... it's the league that has to stop that.

 

[Terrapin]

Not to mention that those "rugged 4th liners" turn into Tanner Glass and Craig Adams faster than you notice.

Yeah, just pick the 2 worst players in the last decade to prove your point! Besides, Adams decline didn't happen fast. It took several loooong years, that for some reason Bylsma didn't notice.

 

[Coastal Kev]

The look on Tocchet's face after Ekholm punched Jake in the face spoke volumes. If Rick has any input, the Pens will get at least one angry tough hombre for next season.

 

[Terrapin]

They have been taking heads shots and cheap shots and cross checks and slashes even with gritty, rugged guys on the roster like Malone, Talbot, Glass, Engo, Asham, etc.

Having these guys on the roster isn't going to stop that... it's the league that has to stop that.

Did they? I recall some rough games and cheap shots back then, but never the blatant abuse these guys taken nowadays.

Yeah, keep waiting for the league to stop it.... lol

 

[mpp9]

The more I think about it, just go after Kane. Botterill is sure to like a piece we have to offer. He helped acquire/draft them.

Kane produces best at ES. Natural LW where we're a bit shallow at in terms of quality depth and size. Skates extremely well. Will create the type of up tempo pressure game we like to play. And I'd like to see what Tocchet can do with him.

He's got issues, but it's one year left on his deal. It works out, our forward group is about as ideal as it gets. It doesn't, he walks.

 

[PensandCaps]

I don't mind suggesting getting some tough guys, but when you suggest Matt Martin i can't help but laugh. Tough guys who are actually good, like Simmonds or Maroon. not awful 2.5 million Matt Martin, who is better than no one on the Pens, Maybe WBS pens too.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Did they? I recall some rough games and cheap shots back then, but never the blatant abuse these guys taken nowadays.

Yeah, keep waiting for the league to stop it.... lol

Please tell me how <insert rugged guy> is going to stop it. By dishing it out afterwards? By doing it first?

Did you miss where Staal made Sid's head a pinata? Bortuzzo and Neal and Glass and Orpik didn't go **** to stop it.

Cooke and Godard and Rupp and Asham really made Hedman pay for boarding Sid and breaking his neck.

 

[mpp9]

They have been taking heads shots and cheap shots and cross checks and slashes even with gritty, rugged guys on the roster like Malone, Talbot, Glass, Engo, Asham, etc.

Having these guys on the roster isn't going to stop that... it's the league that has to stop that.

I can see where JR is coming from though. It's also about the mental aspect of the game. The team for the most part should be skating away from the ********, but occasionally, it'd be nice if someone got between Sid and a guy ****ing with him and had the mean streak to back it up.

Sid ain't a robot. Eventually, it's gonna get to him.

 

[Coastal Kev]

They have been taking heads shots and cheap shots and cross checks and slashes even with gritty, rugged guys on the roster like Malone, Talbot, Glass, Engo, Asham, etc.

Having these guys on the roster isn't going to stop that... it's the league that has to stop that.

This isn't entirely true. I'm not saying that the guys you listed above stops 100% of the cheap stuff, but I can't remember a time when we had toughness where Sid would be targeted the entire game the way he is now.

On top of that, it's not about just prevention. It's about letting a team know if you are going to go that route against Sid or any other skilled player, your favorite teammate might be eating some boards sometime soon.

Last night I saw the Pens target Ekholm after his crap. Cullen, Kunitz and Malkin all went out of their way to let them know the team wasn't happy with his crap.

Some will say that's enough, that's fair. But others, including JR, may want to see a truly scary guy who makes a much more emphatic point. This could have occurred late in the 3rd last night and the Pens wouldn't be any worse off as we sit here today.

 

[Shady Machine]

You don't need the 18 fastest skaters on the planet to be successful. We're proving that this year. Our speed hasn't been a huge factor in most games this playoffs. Also, many people here are under the impression anyone that plays with an edge has the skill and skating ability of Steve Mcintyre. It's simply not the case.

And I understand the mental scarring people still have from that Flyers series. But that was 6 years ago. There's what, 3 or 4 players from that roster left? Not to mention a new coach. And that series was humiliating more due to Fleury playing like a 7 years old than us trying to beat up Philly.

You're right, we have been successful turning the other cheek. But for how much longer? How many more head shots do Sid, Letang, and Murray have to take before they miss significant time?

The Madden speculation is they want players to protect Crosby. What player out there is going to stop opponents from giving head shots to Sid, Letang, or Murray? There's just no evidence it'll make a damn bit of difference. Now, if Sid wants it, he gets it, I guess, so I won't complain too much as long as the star players just keep playing.

 

[Shady Machine]

Did they? I recall some rough games and cheap shots back then, but never the blatant abuse these guys taken nowadays.

Yeah, keep waiting for the league to stop it.... lol

Yes they did. Sid got his teeth knocked out in his rookie year when we had plenty of "tough hombres" on the team.