Speculation: Front Office

[Peat]

Somebody said there should be a thread for this in the Coaching thread so here it is. I don't think anything's going to happen, but pretty interesting to see what people think.

Are you happy with him staying with the FO staying as is?

Or do you want him gone?

Or do you think he has it but maybe needs another sort of different voice among those surrounding him?

Click to read more...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Should've been under serious pressure after the Caps series.

No way he should be the GM by the next time the Penguins play.

As for his replacement, no clue. But JR's lost all sense of purpose and direction as far as team building goes several years ago. He's just firing blindly at the wall and hoping he hits the target. For every successful deal he makes, it feels like there's two or three that go poorly and/or need to be undone.

He is the biggest issue facing this team and the biggest obstacle in the way of one last Cup before the Sid/Geno/Letang era ends.

 

[K Fleur]

JR hit a magic streak of trades and signings from the summer of 2015(maybe even as far back as 2014 summer since that was when he got Hornqvist) through the 2016 trade deadline. Since then his moves have been anywhere from meh to just shockingly awful.

It’s been beaten to death obviously but that Jack Johnson signing is crippling to this team’s contending window. Great teams on paper lose playoff series all the time when they play JJ caliber defenseman. And no team that has actually played JJ has ever won a playoff series.

It’s time to clean house.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

He’s been drafting well and knows the roster, but he overdoes it. This year, Zucker is great.

But then he shook up the team too much with the Sheary move. He just makes too many moves imo. I think he should stay with Allvin (drafting has seemed strong) but there should be changes to the people around him.

In all honestly though, a fresh set of eyes and ideas in charge of the roster would not be the worst thing either.

 

[EightyOne]

Go...only because, honestly, I think he is getting too old for this shit. It's a young man's game....he needs to burn both ends of the candles and grasp actual statistics. He should be content with what he accomplished on multiple teams and bow out.

 

[Merc29]

I just think it’s a serious time for a change. Not discrediting anything he’s done, and I seriously loved 90% of the moves he’s made and what’ he’s done for us, but it’s nothing more than just a goalie change to get a spark going

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Out of boredom and curiosity, I'm going to trudge through the last several years of signings and trades made by JR and throw together a list to see just how bad his work has been since the last Cup.

 

[Night Shift]

One more year for JR

 

[Empoleon8771]

I hate how people are scapegoating JR and Sullivan for the failures of guys like Malkin, Guentzel, Rust and Hornqvist.

Does JR deserve blame for the series loss? Of course. He signed JJ to the contract and JJ actively hurt them. Schultz hasn't played up to his contract extension for even a second. JR has targeted a lot of players who just didn't work in Pittsburgh, which he deserves criticism for to an extent (Marleau and Galchenyuk are the most obvious ones). He's spent a ton of assets making big trades, and when those trades didn't work out, he'd spend even more assets trying to correct them. He's not blameless here.

But they didn't lose this series because of that. Firing JR because Malkin, Guentzel, Rust, Hornqvist, McCann and Dumoulin decided to not show up for a series makes no sense. You're just scapegoating JR for the failures of the players that are supposed to play well.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Again, JR and Sully are safe for now.

I know people don’t want to read that, but it’s a fact.

I know these threads help people vent, but if everyone doesn’t accept that reality now, the misery is going to be a lot worse for many of you getting your hopes up.

I hate how people are scapegoating JR and Sullivan for the failures of guys like Malkin, Guentzel, Rust and Hornqvist.

Anyone blaming Guentzel needs to slam their head in a door for awhile.

 

[Peat]

He’s been drafting well and knows the roster, but he overdoes it. This year, Zucker is great.

But then he shook up the team too much with the Sheary move. He just makes too many moves imo. I think he should stay with Allvin (drafting has seemed strong) but there should be changes to the people around him.

In all honestly though, a fresh set of eyes and ideas in charge of the roster would not be the worst thing either.

See, that's a rough one for me, because while I do kinda agree with you, I just think back to the situation as it was and ask what did you want him to do? We thought we were heading to a Guentzel-less playoffs and Kahun, McCann, and Simon weren't cutting it around Crosby and Malkin, not to mention our 4th line was a joke with all the injuries. If he'd stuck his course on those guys and McCann/Kahun had continued doing the same things around Sid/Geno, he'd have got crucified for doing nothing.

I do kinda wonder what Kahun might have done these playoffs with McCann, but that's maybes and Sheary did his fair share - one of the few who did.

And going forwards... yeah, I think Rutherford's constant chopping and changing hasn't been helpful, but at the same time, whoever the next GM is, they're going to need to make roughly as many moves as Rutherford over the next year to refresh the depth/fit under the cap.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

See, that's a rough one for me, because while I do kinda agree with you, I just think back to the situation as it was and ask what did you want him to do? We thought we were heading to a Guentzel-less playoffs and Kahun, McCann, and Simon weren't cutting it around Crosby and Malkin, not to mention our 4th line was a joke with all the injuries. If he'd stuck his course on those guys and McCann/Kahun had continued doing the same things around Sid/Geno, he'd have got crucified for doing nothing.

I do kinda wonder what Kahun might have done these playoffs with McCann, but that's maybes and Sheary did his fair share - one of the few who did.

And going forwards... yeah, I think Rutherford's constant chopping and changing hasn't been helpful, but at the same time, whoever the next GM is, they're going to need to make roughly as many moves as Rutherford over the next year to refresh the depth/fit under the cap.

JR did come in and rebuild this team on the fly and save Malkin and Crosby’s legacies.

So he is capable of doing it again, but it’s an extremely difficult thing to hit all the right notes once, let alone twice.

Many of us were clamoring for a proactive GM who was the opposite of Shero’s patient and conservative style... and we got our wish.

Most fans hate their GMs, so people around here aren’t exactly unique in waning JR gone.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Anyone blaming Guentzel needs to slam their head in a door for awhile.

How? He looked like a shell of himself in this series. He's paid $6 million to produce and he largely didn't produce in the playoffs.

He had 2 primary assists and an empty net goal in 4 games in the series. That's not nearly enough, especially considering that his 2 primary assists were mostly Crosby playing great. I understand there was a perfectly logical reason for his struggles, it was the shoulder surgery, but he still had a bad series. He should have been more productive, especially with how many strong chances Crosby was feeding him.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean, we got swept by an Isles team (after barely making the playoffs on the last day of the regular season) that in turn got swept themselves, then failed to make the playoffs after losing a play-in to a Montreal team that was 24th in the league during the regular season. I know it's been 5 months since teams last played, so the regular season doesn't matter much, but still...

Pretty unacceptable past couple of seasons. If we want another shot at a Cup, huge changes need to be made and they need to be made now, imo. You have to commit to rebuilding the roster around the framework in place, and you either accept that a new set of eyes/direction is needed from the coaching staff and GM, or you shrug your shoulders and say "Yeah, the guys who have torpedoed this ship over the last few years will suddenly pull a complete 180 and get us back to legit Cup contender status".

I don't believe the latter is a realistic approach.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

How? He looked like a shell of himself in this series. He's paid $6 million to produce and he largely didn't produce in the playoffs.

He had 2 primary assists and an empty net goal in 4 games in the series. That's not nearly enough, especially considering that his 2 primary assists were mostly Crosby playing great.

Bro, he just had major reconstructive surgery on his shoulder.

It takes guys a full year to get back to normal. He got one exhibition game. It’s actually almost comical and absurd when I type it out.

I shouldn’t even have to explain this TBTH. I thought you played the game, you should know better, c’mon.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Bro, he just had major reconstructive surgery on his shoulder.

It takes guys a full year to get back to normal. He got one exhibition game.

I shouldn’t even have to explain this TBTH. I thought you played the game, you should know better, c’mon.

Yes, I know that's why he played bad, but he still played bad. I'm not worried about Guentzel in the long run because I know this performance was bad only due to the surgery, but he still played poorly and deserves blame for his failures.

He's much further down the list of who to blame for this series than guys like Malkin and Rust, because he had a reason to be playing poorly and he actually did provide some good overall, but he still has blame for why they bowed out this quickly.

 

[Peat]

JR did come in and rebuild this team on the fly and save Malkin and Crosby’s legacies.

So he is capable of doing it again, but it’s an extremely difficult thing to hit all the right notes once, let alone twice.

Many of us were clamoring for a proactive GM who was the opposite of Shero’s patient and conservative style... and we got our wish.

Most fans hate their GMs, so people around here aren’t exactly unique in waning JR gone.

Do you think it's going to be any more or less difficult for another GM to hit the right notes once then it will be for Rutherford to hit them again?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just want a GM that's not going to steer the team in a successful direction, only to randomly jerk the wheel to make detours down Jack Johnson, Gudbranson, Pearson, Reaves, etc. Street.

JR and Sully deserve all the credit in the world for the back to back Cups, particularly with the job they did following the departure of Shero and Bylsma and just how screwed this team was. That being said, so many idiotic and downright puzzling choices have been made since then, and for years, that it's impossible for anyone to expect them to suddenly snap out of it and return to form.

The plot's been lost. The identity's been lost. The team direction has been pulled in way too many directions in recent years, and for all the good JR's done, he's done just as much or more bad. He's spent way too much time focused on one area or another that he's allowed other areas to become serious problems, and he's spent way too much time trying to undo the effects of his random, Yosemite Sam routine of just firing blindly.

Dude's gotta go. JR and Jack Johnson are the two biggest issues plaguing this team, I genuinely believe that.

 

[Doogle]

I don't trust him to rebuild on the fly, and to maximize the last two years of Geno and Letang's contracts... so he should go.

It's obvious that this team has gotten stale and that major changes need to take place.... so he should go.

But he just got elected to the HOF and signed a 3 year deal just a year ago, so he'll stay. Neither him nor Sullivan are getting fired and I can basically guarantee that. Maybe Recchi, but he's too close to Mario so I think he's 50/50

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Some people need to wake up and smell the roses this morning. Hello, the top players on this team are 33+. Stop treating this like it's 2014. They didn't "decide to not show up" this is just absurd fan hyperbole. Nobody's winning games by themselves anymore, nobody's scoring goals while carrying around dead weight or bad fits, nobody's taking over playing with defensemen who can't even make a breakout pass. The glory days aren't coming back, and "your best players have to be your best players" doesn't work anymore without a supporting cast. You saying it won't make it true.

What is true, is that there was a line that was the best in hockey that never once saw a second of ice time in this series.

What is true, is we had a D pair get owned for 4 straight games and nothing was done about it.

What is true, is we went out and got a choke-job artist of a 'vet' to add leadership to team with Crosby and Malkin in their 30s on it, and then played that waste of a roster spot every game.

Deny deny deny the reality. It won't change a damn thing. Play the best options, period, or GTFO. Our roster had way more potential than what was iced every night, and that's the only thing that matters. Going forward, we need to make that supporting cast even better. But that won't matter with a coach playing favorites and unable to assess reality. I'm not sure Rutherford still has it, and if he saddles himself to this coach without making changes I think both have to go.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yes, I know that's why he played bad, but he still played bad. I'm not worried about Guentzel in the long run because I know this performance was bad only due to the surgery, but he still played poorly and deserves blame for his failures.

If he wasn't 100% after the shoulder surgery, he shouldn't have played. The shoulder surgery explains why he played poorly, but he still played poorly and they needed more from him.

Again, you should know hockey culture... you play when you shouldn’t, that simple.

Even if he he was 100% ready, there is a huge difference between being ok to play vs being back at your peak.

That takes months and months of playing to get back there after a major surgery.

Anyone blaming him is just being foolish and not living in the reality of how an injury like that works.

Do you think it's going to be any more or less difficult for another GM to hit the right notes once then it will be for Rutherford to hit them again?

You could argue he knows how to rebuild on the fly and proved it, so he’s the best man for the job.

One could also say he isn’t willing to tear things down far enough to truly fix this team.

I’m indifferent about him staying or not. I’m not angry with him, nor is there anyone out there I really want.

Many on this board thought Botts was this shadow man behind JR pulling all the strings and he should have been made the GM...

Look where Botts is now though.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Rutherford made some mis-steps but the bigger problem is the coaching staff. I'm not confident in a new GM just because we don't have 3 years to waste. To me, you ride out the next 2 years with Rutherford while he still has both stars under contract. Take our best shots at the Cup. When one of them goes (I don't think Malkin will get another contract here) the GM can too, and then of course it's full rebuild barring any major changes between now and Monday around 6pm.

 

[Pens x]

I don’t like JR, and especially not since the Cup runs. But you can’t really blame the last two seasons on him. He put together enough talent to beat the 24th best team in the league 3 out of 5 games.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

They need hungry youth to energize the team. In 16 and 17 we had Rust, Wilson, Kuhnhackl, Sheary, Murray, Guentzel as the hungry young guys. Plus Hagelin, Bonino, Cullen, Daley as the motivated veterans who had something to play for. In 2009, Sid, Geno, Staal, Letang, Fleury were still young and hungry. Also they were all still motivated to play for the coach.
This year's roster is a)not motivated anymore and b) not motivated to play for the current coach.

While I don't think JR needs to be fired, I don't think they'll ever have playoff success with Sullivan behind the bench. He's a great coach but coaches have a shelf life. And I'm afraid his has expired.

I would love Alaign Vignault. He has a 3-5 year window as coach but for those few years his teams are on fire. Never won a cup but has made the finals several times in the last 10 years. And he's already proving his worth with the shitty Flyers roster.

 

[Peat]

You could argue he knows how to rebuild on the fly and proved it, so he’s the best man for the job.

One could also say he isn’t willing to tear things down far enough to truly fix this team.

I’m indifferent about him staying or not. I’m not angry with him, nor is there anyone out there I really want.

Many on this board thought Botts was this shadow man behind JR pulling all the strings and he should have been made the GM...

Look where Botts is now though.

He's looked pretty willing to tear things down so far.

If Rutherford continues to aim for more speed and skill like this year, I think I trust him more than most possible options out there.