From Messier to Kucherov: Best playoff performer of the 4?

[NigerianNightmare]

Fedorov is great, but he is more on the level of Yzerman in the playoffs. Which is still great. Messier just did what Fedorov did, but more often. Has more Smythe worthy runs too.

Valid point Sir.

How would you compare Messier to Crosby in terms of playoff performance?

 

[Big Phil]

Valid point Sir.

How would you compare Messier to Crosby in terms of playoff performance?

As it stands, Crosby has 200 playoff points. He is likely to overtake Jagr in the coming days at 201. That means the only ones ahead of him are Gretzky, Messier, Kurri and Anderson. All dynasty Oilers. Messier is 2nd at 295. Unlikely Crosby catches him, but does it mean he is a lesser playoff warrior? I think at the moment it does.

When did Messier have a poor playoff showing? Almost never. 1982 is the worst I've got where you can say he cost his team and they lost partially because of his performance (although all of the green Oilers blew it). He has his own Smythe and other Smythe-worthy runs. Captained two different teams to the Cup, won 6 of them overall and played in 7 Cup finals. Crosby likely won't surpass any of them. The other time Messier had a year that wasn't up to par may have been 1991, when he was hurt. But he is a rare breed where he produced well even in losses.

Crosby does have some postseasons that were lousy. Not many, but they are there. 2015, 2019, 2020 and 2021 come to mind from a statistical perspective. All first round losses. There are other times such as 2010 or 2013 where his stats look good but he faltered in the later rounds. 2012 where he was on the wrong end of a pond hockey series, in which he should have overtaken Philly with. There are times he's gotten thrown off his game, I can't remember Messier doing this, really.

He's also been good in all 4 Cup finals runs he reached. Not to mention some other times like 2018 where he looked very good. But there isn't quite that consistent string of good postseasons performances like Messier. If we are to nitpick a bit we have to give the edge to Messier for sure, even if Crosby has a wicked run to the final this year. There are just too many examples of Messier being a playoff warrior, that even the best playoff performer of our own generation right now is not quite there.

 

[NigerianNightmare]

As it stands, Crosby has 200 playoff points. He is likely to overtake Jagr in the coming days at 201. That means the only ones ahead of him are Gretzky, Messier, Kurri and Anderson. All dynasty Oilers. Messier is 2nd at 295. Unlikely Crosby catches him, but does it mean he is a lesser playoff warrior? I think at the moment it does.

When did Messier have a poor playoff showing? Almost never. 1982 is the worst I've got where you can say he cost his team and they lost partially because of his performance (although all of the green Oilers blew it). He has his own Smythe and other Smythe-worthy runs. Captained two different teams to the Cup, won 6 of them overall and played in 7 Cup finals. Crosby likely won't surpass any of them. The other time Messier had a year that wasn't up to par may have been 1991, when he was hurt. But he is a rare breed where he produced well even in losses.

Crosby does have some postseasons that were lousy. Not many, but they are there. 2015, 2019, 2020 and 2021 come to mind from a statistical perspective. All first round losses. There are other times such as 2010 or 2013 where his stats look good but he faltered in the later rounds. 2012 where he was on the wrong end of a pond hockey series, in which he should have overtaken Philly with. There are times he's gotten thrown off his game, I can't remember Messier doing this, really.

He's also been good in all 4 Cup finals runs he reached. Not to mention some other times like 2018 where he looked very good. But there isn't quite that consistent string of good postseasons performances like Messier. If we are to nitpick a bit we have to give the edge to Messier for sure, even if Crosby has a wicked run to the final this year. There are just too many examples of Messier being a playoff warrior, that even the best playoff performer of our own generation right now is not quite there.

Excellent analysis!

Many thanks for such quality response

 

[MadLuke]

Outside the obvious with Gretzky, I wonder who is clearly above Messier playoff career wise ?

Beliveau/Richard/Lafleur/Roy/Sakic/Crosby/Bourque/Bossy-Potvin-Trottier ?

I can see a list of people having an argument and a debate, but clearly ranked above ?

 

[Big Phil]

Outside the obvious with Gretzky, I wonder who is clearly above Messier playoff career wise ?

Beliveau/Richard/Lafleur/Roy/Sakic/Crosby/Bourque/Bossy-Potvin-Trottier ?

I can see a list of people having an argument and a debate, but clearly ranked above ?

Hard to not put Richard above him. When you think of it, 82 playoff goals in a low scoring era with only two playoff rounds and to this day he is still in 8th place I believe. Unreal. Richard is another name that comes to mind who rarely did poor in the postseason, even when he didn't win the Cup. There are some more "down" years than what Messier had though. But not many.

The truth is, Beliveau is arguably better than Richard. Other than the years after 1960 and before 1965 where the Habs never got out of the first round, he is golden. Best player on two different dynasties, I'd say. That's something! I am thinking if you have the option to have Beliveau over Messier for a playoff year you might take Beliveau, although either choice you'd be kept up at night.

Patrick Roy is the only non-forward that comes to mind here. Take that for what it is. Other than that Orr didn't play long enough and Howe maybe you can argue should have won more than 4 Cups, although again, that's nitpicking as he normally did pretty good when the Wings made the Cup final.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Hard to not put Richard above him. When you think of it, 82 playoff goals in a low scoring era with only two playoff rounds and to this day he is still in 8th place I believe. Unreal. Richard is another name that comes to mind who rarely did poor in the postseason, even when he didn't win the Cup. There are some more "down" years than what Messier had though. But not many.

The truth is, Beliveau is arguably better than Richard. Other than the years after 1960 and before 1965 where the Habs never got out of the first round, he is golden. Best player on two different dynasties, I'd say. That's something! I am thinking if you have the option to have Beliveau over Messier for a playoff year you might take Beliveau, although either choice you'd be kept up at night.

Patrick Roy is the only non-forward that comes to mind here. Take that for what it is. Other than that Orr didn't play long enough and Howe maybe you can argue should have won more than 4 Cups, although again, that's nitpicking as he normally did pretty good when the Wings made the Cup final.

Richard's goal-scoring in the playoffs is something that is really at a "Big Four" level.

From 1943-44 to 1957-58 (first playoffs until last elite season) Richard had

81 goals and 122 points in 121 playoff games.

Next highest, is Ted Lindsay with 85 points or Bernie Geoffrion with 46 goals. Richard held the goal record until Bossy. Even now, he is

* 9th in playoff goals
* 2nd in playoff goals per game (behind Bossy)
* First in playoff EVG/G

Considering his prime was in a much lower scoring era than anyone else in the goal list, it's remarkable. He is the best playoff goal scorer of all-time.

He lead the playoffs in goals 5 times (44, 46, 47, 51, 58).

 

[NigerianNightmare]

Richard's goal-scoring in the playoffs is something that is really at a "Big Four" level.

From 1943-44 to 1957-58 (first playoffs until last elite season) Richard had

81 goals and 122 points in 121 playoff games.

Next highest, is Ted Lindsay with 85 points or Bernie Geoffrion with 46 goals. Richard held the goal record until Bossy. Even now, he is

* 9th in playoff goals
* 2nd in playoff goals per game (behind Bossy)
* First in playoff EVG/G

Considering his prime was in a much lower scoring era than anyone else in the goal list, it's remarkable. He is the best playoff goal scorer of all-time.

He lead the playoffs in goals 5 times (44, 46, 47, 51, 58).

What a player! I shall rank him above Crosby