Proposal: fresh take on weber/toews/krecji 3 way.... warning wall of text

[Dr Quincy]

Short version: Those CHI contracts are just total No-Go's for almost every team.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

So is this the Dylan Storm and Oliver Ekmund-Larsson rumour I keep hearing about from OP’s another trade proposal?

could be... makes sense to me... but for the record I have to confesss I didn't read that threat

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Yeah I agree about the "locker room guy" stuff, it's gotten very cringeworthy.

Every other signing Holland makes is because "he's a great locker room guy with leadership presence and brings veteran experience"


Like a broken record.

building character by importing it... is tricky and often doesn't work. its a magic formula that might take a few tries to find

but trust me... when boston got rid of thornton/samsonov/raycroft/Boynton/murray
and brought in
chara/ward/ferrence/rechhi/Kelly

it might not have been a clear cut win as far as raw talent goes... it cant be understated how huge it was for a culture change in boston and we won the cup within 5 years of these changes going from a team that had no heart at all to one that was considered the biggest group of warriors that would stand up for one another

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Krejci is a better player than Weber. Boston's offence and defence will take a step back without him. Boston don't need another older Dman with Chara in the team. Chara can coach the younger players.

I didn't expect boston fans to be able to see value in my proposal

 

[amj h]

I didn't expect boston fans to be able to see value in my proposal

I'm a Flyers fan

 

[BostonBob]

I didn't expect boston fans to be able to see value in my proposal

Explain this to me.

 

[Spazkat]

So basically.... everyone gets boned but CHI?

The MTL trade is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic, and it seems like Boston has their quota of "older veteran D leadership" slots filled with Chara under contract.

Maybe you'd have better luck dumping that Weber contract on Toronto

 

[Baksfamous112]

im thinking montreals motive should be... accept the rebuild... commit to the idea you will finish with top 5 lottery picks the next 2-3 seasons... pull the trigger on a patches trade... maybe even shop carey price

but as the new kids filter in you have to have some proven professional winners in your locker room to say hello. you need a positive atmosphere to let your kids come in and be protected as they begin the next era

Chicago has been the best winning culture in hockey the past decade... and captain hockey and mr seabrook have wildly been acknowledged as the leaders in that dressing room.

if you tell me montreal could do better... I can get behind that... maybe they can

but to say they are getting screwed over... I don't buy that at all. they can finish as a bottom feeder with a bunch of mismatched locker room personalities like they have now... a bunch of lightning rods for the fans displeasure to be cast on... or they can get on with the business of rebuilding and target premium assets that can aid a rebuild process

the true key to the rebuild will be to draft right though and give the kids a good environment to join

So, tell me, how long should Montreal rebuilt take if we have Seabrook ans Toews on the book for 5-7 years? We don’t need those contracts and if we ever did a rebuild, they would way down our checklist

 

[The Hockey Tonk Man]

should prolly stop drinking for the day & go to bed Taz

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

So, tell me, how long should Montreal rebuilt take if we have Seabrook ans Toews on the book for 5-7 years? We don’t need those contracts and if we ever did a rebuild, they would way down our checklist

rebuilds... are notorious for having a lot of elc contracts on the book the first couple years as you emerge from the shadows. cap space is rarely a problem until your elite players are on their second deal

sadly I don't see any elite players in montreal yet...

I would expect the first of montreals new generation of good talent to start making an impact in no sooner than 2 years from now... and not be eligible for McDavid/Eichel money for no sooner than 4-5 years out

when they do become eligible for that first big contract... not having any quality veterns around will be a bad thing you can see in Edmonton and buffalo examples how even after the first 2-3 kids have been around for 4-5 years theres still a ton of crap to do before you can win if you have no quality veterns to support the kids

look at my bruins for a blueprint... we drafted Bergeron, krecji, lucic, marchand, seguin… brought in boychuk and krug… so we had the start of a pretty damn good group of kids

but before we could get these kids to develop we had to move out the locker room cancers like thornton/samsonov/murray/raycroft/Boynton... this clique controlled the locker room and no new voice could speak up until the old culture was sent packing

and we had to bring in some guys that could care for the kids... we overpaid martin lapointe to babysit Bergeron... we brought in Andrew ference to be boychuks partner on the blueline... recchi was brought in and chris Kelly among others to show guys like krecji and lucic how to be pros...

of course chara and Thomas played huge roles too... it cant all be done with character

but boston began a 3 year run where we should have gone to the finals every year... we did twice. it was largely due to the way the team became a family. the kids continued to grow until this day when guys like Bergeron and marchand have become among the 10 best player in hockey

they sure weren't during the cup run...

character improves players like this... experience does count for something

 

[Price4Prez]

As a Habs fan. This is so horrible. Id laugh in any Blackhawks fans face, id they could tell me with a straigt face,they wouldnt do that trade.

Weber is a #1 D. Still top 10. His cap hit is under 8m. It isnt a bad contract AT ALL.

Toews is not a #1C anymore, who is worth that contract. Seabrook has negative value and i have no idea qhy we would take on the Hossa contract, he is on IR. No benefit at all for Habs.

If Boston wants Weber, it would be easier to cut Chicago out and deal directly.

That being said, if Montreal ever decides to trade Weber in the coming season or two, it is to go younger. Krecji is 32. So thats a no go as a main piece.

Donato/DeBrusk+Carlo+1st

You're trading for a #1 Dman. If you wanna give up Krecji as your main piece and no 1st pick, you're trading for a #2.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Lopsided for the Bruins

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Kinda thought if Weber leaves the Habs, picks and prospects are coming back.

They aren't competing now, and Toews ain't the target.

 

[sansabri]

Rotten deal for the Habs.

 

[EdzosCrayon]

enter Chicago. what is Chicago up to now? do they want to reload and try to win more cups with kane and keith? or are they rebuilding? one thing we know... their cap situation is ugly.
​

This is worded as if Keith is either still his prime self or has a reasonable chance at bouncing back to being his prime self while a return to form for Toews would shock everyone when it's basically the exact opposite of that.

 

[Just Linda]

One of the advantages of the Weber contract is how crazy front loaded it is. One of the advantages to Weber is that his game doesn’t rely super heavy on his speed so his leg injuries aren’t as big of a deal as they would be for a Subban type player.

Weber is still a top pair guy. He will be for a few more seasons. After that he becomes a second pairing guy who is making peanuts with a high cap hit ie the type of player that Ottawa, Arizona, and Carolina loves. He will never have negative value imo.

He will likely decline but he won’t decline that fast. Chara is still serviceable and he’s closer to the seniors home than the rookie draft, that’s the type of player Weber is.

I disagree a bit on how much Toews is undervalued but his contract and ‘Seabrents’ make this trade not even worth entertaining, it’s just too wonky. I’d honestly rather lose Weber for nothing than take those contracts on.

I won’t even bother thinking of the Boston Chicago trade you proposed but if Boston wants Weber, it’ll cost them futures. Weber to Boston isn’t a crazy bad idea, Boston doesn’t need Weber though with the options they have now.

 

[Number 57]

So Weber gets dealt to CHI for a bunch of crap (Toews is too old for our rebuild) but when Chicago flips Weber to Boston they get Carlo and Forsbacka Karlsson? What the hell. Makes no sense for Montreal. They might as well keep Weber. Why would they go after Seabrook's and Hossa's contracts?

If you want Weber send us Carlo + a 1st round pick, we can also take salary back if needed.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

I like the thought process even though its unrealistic. keep it up OP

 

[ohmyjlord]

I don't really mind Toews' contract. It is quite heavy, and 5-years is kinda long...but considering the position we're in, I don't think it would hurt us that badly.

That being said, Seabrook is one contract I would absolutely refuse to touch. I'd rather live with both, Shaw and Alzner, than taking Seabrook's contract. Let alone when you add Hossa's contract to the deal. I just don't see enough compensations being given to the Habs here. Some could argue that Toews is a better player than Weber...but not to the point of taking on an extra $6.267m of caphit, while also losing one roster player.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

Toews has a full NMC. Very doubtful he'd waive to Montreal.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

So Weber gets dealt to CHI for a bunch of crap (Toews is too old for our rebuild) but when Chicago flips Weber to Boston they get Carlo and Forsbacka Karlsson? What the hell. Makes no sense for Montreal. They might as well keep Weber. Why would they go after Seabrook's and Hossa's contracts?

If you want Weber send us Carlo + a 1st round pick, we can also take salary back if needed.

I feel montreal has been desperate to get a center now for several years and has failed. I don't think its as easy for them to get one as you might think

would boston give them krejci? it seems unlikely boston and montreal would make a trade

I include Chicago because there needs to be a buffer. so the bruin offer... wouldn't be available to montreal

can montreal get kids for weber from another team? its possible... but will kids save the job of montreals front office staff? will kids make the casual fan happy?

its different debating these issues in a hockey smart forum like hf where everyone wants the second round pick that has a chance to develop into a 3rd line grinder... but in the real world theres a lot of value in guys with brand name recognition

that's why rolling stones and bruce springsteen still sell out arena while that fresh band you just discovered at the neighborhood bar is playing at the neighborhood bar

like it or not... filling hockey arenas and selling merchandise does depend some on vetern brand name recognition

I feel I did right by montreal trying to identify pieces I feel will help a rebuilding team. if you disagree... that's why this is fun. its ok to disagree here. even the pro gms disagree with one another. talent evaluation and team building isn't an exact science

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Toews has a full NMC. Very doubtful he'd waive to Montreal.

could be... but the kid is proudly Canadian from what ive seen... steeped in the traditions of this sport. as his window in Chicago starts to close he doesn't really figure to embellish his legacy by staying there. if nothing else public opinion has started to turn against him. I hear a lot of discussion hes now one of the most overrated guys in hockey. I think his legacy could easily tarnish if he stays there and the team sinks into rebuild mold.

can they get competitive without radically reshuffling their cap numbers?

meanwhile... what better way to become superman than to lead a Canadian iconic team like Toronto or montreal out of its 30 years of misery and back to a cup final? im not sure it will happen but that's why Tavares just chose Toronto over nicer places like tampa and san jose.

I think toews has never shyd away from a challenge or preasure. his legacy in international hockey is just as big as his performance has been in the nhl. but if he was the captain to montreal… if he did help this newly drafted finn kid become something special... I think a guy like toews could put a premium value upon something like that

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I don't really mind Toews' contract. It is quite heavy, and 5-years is kinda long...but considering the position we're in, I don't think it would hurt us that badly.

That being said, Seabrook is one contract I would absolutely refuse to touch. I'd rather live with both, Shaw and Alzner, than taking Seabrook's contract. Let alone when you add Hossa's contract to the deal. I just don't see enough compensations being given to the Habs here. Some could argue that Toews is a better player than Weber...but not to the point of taking on an extra $6.267m of caphit, while also losing one roster player.

if im king of the world... I could ok toews for weber straight up... then weber to boston for krecji and carlo

I was adding the other pieces because I think they do help montreal and Chicago but if you didn't want them included id be fine with it

honestly though I just don't think it hurts a team in montreal's position to take on the seabrook contract. seebrook is one of those guys with a 4 mill bonus in 22-23. after that hes owed just 5.5 million dollars over the last 2 years of his deal. if montreal offered to eat even a million dollars each year it makes seabrook less than 2 mill a year to the new team. he will be just 36 at the time

meanwhile you got a guy like jeff petry coming up on a new contract soon... signing him would require a longer commitment.

montreal has a whole bunch of guys who have never been much better than 5/6 dman to build their nucleus now... and a bunch of kids. if they don't bring back petry I think they will be in desperate need for an elder spokesman who has been there/done that

 

[ohmyjlord]

if im king of the world... I could ok toews for weber straight up... then weber to boston for krecji and carlo

I was adding the other pieces because I think they do help montreal and Chicago but if you didn't want them included id be fine with it

honestly though I just don't think it hurts a team in montreal's position to take on the seabrook contract. seebrook is one of those guys with a 4 mill bonus in 22-23. after that hes owed just 5.5 million dollars over the last 2 years of his deal. if montreal offered to eat even a million dollars each year it makes seabrook less than 2 mill a year to the new team. he will be just 36 at the time

meanwhile you got a guy like jeff petry coming up on a new contract soon... signing him would require a longer commitment.

montreal has a whole bunch of guys who have never been much better than 5/6 dman to build their nucleus now... and a bunch of kids. if they don't bring back petry I think they will be in desperate need for an elder spokesman who has been there/done that

Yeah, but you're still talking about trading Alzner, whose contract is $2.2m caphit less than Seabrook while also being shorter for what seems to be a rather quickly declining Seabrook. I understand your point about Seabrook's contract structure, but by 22-23, Alzner's contract will be off the books completely. Plus, Alzner's contract is also structured in a similar way, where he's getting paid $1.5m in 2020-21 and $3.5m in 2021-22. So he'll probably be easier too trade then...two years before Seabrook's modified NTC kicks in.

Now add that to the Shaw-for-Hossa swap...you get a trade that doesn't really make sense for the Habs, even from a financial standpoint.

Weber's injuries are a tough pill to swallow right now...but it's also the best thing that could happen to this organization, who's in dire need of a rebuild. Best case scenario for the Habs, Weber comes back in December with the team already far behind a playoffs spot, really proves his injury didn't affect his game...and we trade him next offseason for a good return that fits our 'rebuild' now that the signing bonus has been paid entirely. And hopefully, we'll be able to do the same with Price.

As for Alzner and Shaw, they can stay to assume that 'leadership' role, and hug a spot until our young guys are ready.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Yeah, but you're still talking about trading Alzner, whose contract is $2.2m caphit less than Seabrook while also being shorter for what seems to be a rather quickly declining Seabrook. I understand your point about Seabrook's contract structure, but by 22-23, Alzner's contract will be off the books completely. Plus, Alzner's contract is also structured in a similar way, where he's getting paid $1.5m in 2020-21 and $3.5m in 2021-22. So he'll probably be easier too trade then...two years before Seabrook's modified NTC kicks in.

Now add that to the Shaw-for-Hossa swap...you get a trade that doesn't really make sense for the Habs, even from a financial standpoint.

Weber's injuries are a tough pill to swallow right now...but it's also the best thing that could happen to this organization, who's in dire need of a rebuild. Best case scenario for the Habs, Weber comes back in December with the team already far behind a playoffs spot, really proves his injury didn't affect his game...and we trade him next offseason for a good return that fits our 'rebuild' now that the signing bonus has been paid entirely. And hopefully, we'll be able to do the same with Price.

As for Alzner and Shaw, they can stay to assume that 'leadership' role, and hug a spot until our young guys are ready.

thanks for a thoughtful inside counter to my post... as always its far more likely these trade proposals we make will never be remotely close to happening. for the record ive never called a trade man for man ever... even 1 for 1 trades... ive never got one right

so chances are this one wont come remotely close either. but I have fun debating it with you all so thanks