Fred Shero deserves to be in the HOF!

[mcphee]

Considering his Flyers were spanked by the extremely clean, sportmanlike, skilled, choir boy Canadiens in '76...he was likely drunk when he made that comment.

Zine, I wear my CH sunglasses at all times. There are those that bow to their greatness and those that are wrong.

We may as well get it right though. History tells a lot of stories. The core players of the 70's Habs, did feel that they had to make a point in beating Philly. Dryden,Robinson, Savard and propabaly others have made comments about how important it was to beat them.

Montreal made it very clear that season that they would beat Philly any way they wanted to play it, right from the exhibition series. When players like Savard tell the dressing room, 'Don't worry about Schultz,I'll take care of him', you know they were willing to win with the gloves off too. Bowman kept 'role' players around, always. He had the luxury of the Bouchard's and Lupien's because his top 3 d men could play ridiculous minutes.
Montreal's line of Lambert/Risebrough/Tremblay understood that stirring things up, was their role. They could have been an offensive line on some teams, but they knew that getting under the opponents skin was their role.

All that, and if Parent was healthy, the Flyers would've been a tougher opponent that year. So, yeah, the Habs wanted to blow up the Flyers team, but they were willing to do it any way you want.

 

[Norseman]

Shero was also the master at bull and deception - the fact that he said he used Tarasov's methods makes me angry as most sane hockey people know that it was a smokescreen. Its actually utter garbage.

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?articleid=279033&page=NewsPage&service=page

A well written article (as usual with Bill Meltzer) and while I'm not going to touch your usual unwarranted crusade against the Flyers anno 1975 I think the claim that Shero used Tarasov inspired aspects in his coaching is well founded and shown in the article.

 

[Big Phil]

Considering his Flyers were spanked by the extremely clean, sportmanlike, skilled, choir boy Canadiens in '76...he was likely drunk when he made that comment.

Uh choir boys Canadiens? Sure they werent the "Broad Street Bullies" but Robinson, Bouchard, Savard even Lapointe could throw them pretty good if needed be. Cournoyer wasnt a big fighter but he was strong like an ox and hard to keep down. Montreal was a skating team but they werent wimps either.

But for others that condemn the Flyers of the 70s keep in mind that even without their goons they were still very good. Clarke was MVP of the NHL three times. Barber onc had 50 goals and 112 points. MacLeish had 100 points. Leach had 61 goals and led the league in that category. Parent had two better years that maybe only Hasek and Sawchuk can claim to. Throw in Shero and a bunch of tough guys (Schultz had a 20 goal season too) and you've got a Cup winner - twice. This was no fluke. They won the Cup in '74 and '75 then made it to the finals in '76. They were a top 3 team in the league for the rest of the '70s and in '79-80 had a 35 game unbeaten streak. they did however lose in the finals.

This team was no fluke. Remember how much talent they had. You can make an argument that Carolina or Tampa may have had fluke Cup wins because they've been barely aove average since, but Philly was agreat team for a long time. And at one point the best. Shero built them that way. Love them or hate them they always drew a crowd.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Well said. Those Philly posters are incapable of seeing the truth - they have no idea what a true Hall of Famer should be.

The Hall of Fame is about 'greatness' and Shero will never be looked at that way because his demeanor and reputation and legacy will always be unacceptable.

Based on his New York fiasco alone, he loses a lot of points as a coach. Its just laughable to claim Shero was a builder when its universally accepted that his reign was the 'dark ages' of hockey.

I'll say this again because its true. The people in the sport who have played the game really know the true story of that era. These Philly fans have no clue about all the background stuff that happened and the horrible residual effects that the cowardly Flyers had on the game.

Keep dreaming in your minds that those Flyers were deserving of anything other than
being chased like scared rabbits once they were traded to other teams around the league.

Shero didn't last very long or had much success as a coach after he left Philly, did he?

Anything is possible regarding being inducted to the HHOF as we see. But it will be a sad day when someone like Shero is inducted as anything into the Hall of Fame.

And, Shero used Tarasov's methods? Other than take the interference and bringing it into the North American game, Shero and Tarasov were poles apart. Give me a break, before you claim any relation, find out who Tarasov was and what his philosophy was. Don't insult the father of Russian hockey by comparing him to a goon coach who was despised around the league.

Shero was a decent coach. That's it. He enabled an average team to win 2 (tainted) Cups by getting them to play cartoonish hockey and intimidate enough teams to make it into the playoffs. When they had to play it straight, they were just a good team. If not for Bernie Parent, they would have 0 Cups to this day.

Go read "Thin Ice", about the 1979-80 Rangers' season. It is hilarious to read about Shero's drinking binges and "accidents" and the wacky stuff he tried to pull during practices. The players just tuned him out about halfway through the season and did what they wanted to. Maybe that's why Fred got the ax shortly after.

The Flyers weren't goons? Yeah, "Battleship" Kelly was a real skilled player! Ditto Don Saleski and Andre Dupont. He could barely stand up on skates! The only players with NHL skill on those teams were Reggie Leach, Bill Barber, and Bernie Parent. Booby (sic) Clarke was the ringleader and chief "windmill" with his stick, and got everyone worked up into a frenzy, but could have been a better player without all the theatrics. And Dave Schultz........ HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

No HOF for Freddie. Heck, Mike Keenan is a better choice to be in. Come to think of it, HE'S universally disliked by the press too! Hum.....

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

If not on his merits alone, he Definitely belongs in there if Herb Brooks belongs.Shero was a Five star General leading the Flyers to two cups. He also led the league in great quotes a few times. Herb Brooks is a one trick pony. He was completely unsuccessful as a pro. He got in based on one tournament. If Brooks belongs, so does Paul Henderson.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

If not on his merits alone, he Definitely belongs in there if Herb Brooks belongs.Shero was a Five star General leading the Flyers to two cups. He also led the league in great quotes a few times. Herb Brooks is a one trick pony. He was completely unsuccessful as a pro. He got in based on one tournament. If Brooks belongs, so does Paul Henderson.

Catch is, Brooks is in as a builder. And to deny that he did more than anyone to build support for hockey throughout the US would be unfair.

 

[Norseman]

And, Shero used Tarasov's methods? Other than take the interference and bringing it into the North American game, Shero and Tarasov were poles apart. Give me a break, before you claim any relation, find out who Tarasov was and what his philosophy was. Don't insult the father of Russian hockey by comparing him to a goon coach who was despised around the league.

As I've already said, the claim thet Shero used Tarasov's methods are in the article previously linked too and explained there. So maybe you should read the article instead of telling us how clueless philly fans are because they disagree with you on this subject.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Well said. Those Philly posters are incapable of seeing the truth - they have no idea what a true Hall of Famer should be.

The Hall of Fame is about 'greatness' and Shero will never be looked at that way because his demeanor and reputation and legacy will always be unacceptable.

Based on his New York fiasco alone, he loses a lot of points as a coach. Its just laughable to claim Shero was a builder when its universally accepted that his reign was the 'dark ages' of hockey.

I'll say this again because its true. The people in the sport who have played the game really know the true story of that era. These Philly fans have no clue about all the background stuff that happened and the horrible residual effects that the cowardly Flyers had on the game.

Keep dreaming in your minds that those Flyers were deserving of anything other than
being chased like scared rabbits once they were traded to other teams around the league.

Shero didn't last very long or had much success as a coach after he left Philly, did he?

Anything is possible regarding being inducted to the HHOF as we see. But it will be a sad day when someone like Shero is inducted as anything into the Hall of Fame.

Ahhhh back again aI see to rant about how the Flyers ruined the game of hockey.

Those Flyers ruined a whole generation of kids growing up in the 70's and watching them play the game, I wonder what those kids would have been if not for the Flyers ruining their development (Gretzky, Coffey, Messier, Hawerchuk, Yzerman, D. Savard, Murphy, Francis, Fuhr, MacInnis, Stevens, Housley, Lafontaine, Neely, Lemieux, Muller, Richter, Nieuwendyk)


A whole generation of talented wasted, all because of the Flyers.

I'd love to read some more of your quotes though about the Flyers .... have any from Sinden, Orr, Espo, Cheevers, Hodge, Cashman, Sanderson or Bucyk ???

 

[jiggs 10]

Well, just from reading quotes from almost EVERYONE of the players you list, not a single one of them was influenced IN A POSITIVE manner by the Flyers. Yzerman was a Trottier fan, Gretzky was a Leafs and Gordie Howe fan, etc. Only Stevens could be seen as a product of that horrible 3 year period when goonery ruled the day. Thank goodness the Canadiens came along to return the game to glory (although a few remnants of the stick-happy Flyers remained for many years after-mainly Don Cherry!). And the Isles showed you can win with class AND skill AND power. Then came the Oilers with their wonderful style, playing the game the way it was invented by those pesky English soldiers 200+ years ago and picked up by Canadians and Americans in the 1830's. Then came the Wings' dynasty, and another team of speedy skating, great passing, goal scoring players ruled for 7 years.

The Flyers? 1975 is a long time ago. This team inspired the satire "Slap Shot" (why do you think the butchers from Syracuse wore Flyers' sweaters?).

Shero is NOT a genius. He was a pretty good coach who got players to do things they normally wouldn't in order to intimidate other teams. And he nearly ruined hockey in the process.

 

[Snap Wilson]

I think it's funny that the debate has come down to the aesthetics of how Shero's teams won. "Yeah, he won two titles, but he did it the wrong way!"

 

[jiggs 10]

Well, had he used his talented players in a different way, he may have won 4 or 5 titles and not ruined hockey for a 10-year period. Funny how as soon as he was forced out in Philly, the team stayed good, but Shero did not. He was a bust in New York, and was gone very soon. They Flyers cleaned up their act a little bit and continued to make the playoffs, but not send opponents to the emergency room as often. Hummm............

 

[Zine]

I think it's funny that the debate has come down to the aesthetics of how Shero's teams won. "Yeah, he won two titles, but he did it the wrong way!"

A simple case of 'does the end justify the means'.

Shero won 2 cups, but he also did irreprable damage to the image of the game.
Sure Slapshot is funny, but its also a sad caricature of what many thought the game was about -- all of it inspired and brought on by the Flyers thuggery.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Well, had he used his talented players in a different way, he may have won 4 or 5 titles and not ruined hockey for a 10-year period. Funny how as soon as he was forced out in Philly, the team stayed good, but Shero did not. He was a bust in New York, and was gone very soon. They Flyers cleaned up their act a little bit and continued to make the playoffs, but not send opponents to the emergency room as often. Hummm............

You sound kinda fruity to me. You sure you like hockey?

If you can say those Flyers cups were anything but brilliant, I can't take you seriously. They simply didn't have the talent many other teams had, but they won, and it certainly was interesting. Fred Shero certainly helped to spread hockey here-I mean, without those 2 cup wins, I don't believe the Flyers would have the support they do today.

 

[OA83]

Well, had he used his talented players in a different way, he may have won 4 or 5 titles and not ruined hockey for a 10-year period. Funny how as soon as he was forced out in Philly, the team stayed good, but Shero did not. He was a bust in New York, and was gone very soon. They Flyers cleaned up their act a little bit and continued to make the playoffs, but not send opponents to the emergency room as often. Hummm............

everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but bust with the Rangers???? Do your homework! He led them to the finals in his first year as the Rangers bench boss and to the second round the following year. They didn't make the finals again until 94. In fact if you look at his coaching record after his first season as an NHL head coach he never missed the playoffs, and never lost in the first round. Sure the Flyers have always been a fairly good team, but when was their last stanley Cup? Oh right, they haven't won a Cup since he coached them to 2!

 

[Snap Wilson]

A simple case of 'does the end justify the means'.

Shero won 2 cups, but he also did irreprable damage to the image of the game.
Sure Slapshot is funny, but its also a sad caricature of what many thought the game was about -- all of it inspired and brought on by the Flyers thuggery.

Irreparable damage? I can't be the only one who remembers the game before the mid-70s Flyers came along. Goon tactics and violence have always been a part of the game. The only difference was that those Philly teams were known for that sort of thing and they won.

And Slap Shot was based on stories from Nancy Dowd, whose brother Ned played for Johnstown Jets of the Eastern Hockey League. Those Flyer teams weren't the cause of goonery throughout hockey. They were one of many symptoms.

 

[mcphee]

Irreparable damage? I can't be the only one who remembers the game before the mid-70s Flyers came along. Goon tactics and violence have always been a part of the game. The only difference was that those Philly teams were known for that sort of thing and they won.

And Slap Shot was based on stories from Nancy Dowd, whose brother Ned played for Johnstown Jets of the Eastern Hockey League. Those Flyer teams weren't the cause of goonery throughout hockey. They were one of many symptoms.[/QUOTE]
There ya go, ruining another good theory with facts. Inconsiderate.

Like most history, we tend to get over emphasize. The flyers were a pretty good team, had a great leader and a great goalie. Shero's always been one of those cloudy legends to me. He won 2 cups, his teams took penalities, they killed them off. Hockey had rules then.

I know I watched them on those national broadcasts on Saturday afternoons, and I was more interested in what Kelly and Durbano would do then I was in Garry Unger.
The Broad Street Bullies made their name 5 years after the Big Bad Bruins did. Boston was known for incidents like half their team pounding a defenseless Brian Conacher as much as for their superior talent. When Boston came into Mtl on Saturday night, the talk was whether Fergy/Green would fight as much as the 'artistry' of Bobby Orr.

I think the Flyers act ran its course, and the CH replaced them with a different type of team.

I don't think those Flyer teams can rank with the best teams of all time, but hockey did have rules then. Saleski wasn't wandering free carving eyes out.

I wouldn't cite them as the role model you want as an example to taech hockey to someone, but we tend to overstate.

 

[David Puddy]

Irreparable damage? I can't be the only one who remembers the game before the mid-70s Flyers came along. Goon tactics and violence have always been a part of the game. The only difference was that those Philly teams were known for that sort of thing and they won.

And Slap Shot was based on stories from Nancy Dowd, whose brother Ned played for Johnstown Jets of the Eastern Hockey League. Those Flyer teams weren't the cause of goonery throughout hockey. They were one of many symptoms.

It was Hockey Hall of Fame inductee Conn Smythe who said, ""If you can't beat 'em in the alley, you won't beat 'em on the ice."

Also, it was the North American Hockey League, a forerunner of the ECHL, in which Ned Dowd, the three Carlson Brothers, Dave "Killer" Hanson (the names were switched for the movie) and Billy "Goldie" Goldthorpe played. It was the 1974-75 season that was the model, and most of the outrageous things were potrayed very closely to how they really happened.

 

[jiggs 10]

everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but bust with the Rangers???? Do your homework! He led them to the finals in his first year as the Rangers bench boss and to the second round the following year. They didn't make the finals again until 94. In fact if you look at his coaching record after his first season as an NHL head coach he never missed the playoffs, and never lost in the first round. Sure the Flyers have always been a fairly good team, but when was their last stanley Cup? Oh right, they haven't won a Cup since he coached them to 2!

He was FIRED from the Rangers in 1980 because he led them to ONLY the 2nd round, when they were Cup favorites. Plus his disappearences, drunken benders, "accidents" where he would show up cut or bruised and didn't have an explaination, and the players ignored him after the All-Star game. It is all archived in the book "Thin Ice: A Season In Hell With The New York Rangers". In his 9 seasons as coach he made the playoffs 8 times. Impressive until you realize all but 4 teams (out of 16/18/21) made the playoffs in those days.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=4923

 

[jiggs 10]

You sound kinda fruity to me. You sure you like hockey?

If you can say those Flyers cups were anything but brilliant, I can't take you seriously. They simply didn't have the talent many other teams had, but they won, and it certainly was interesting. Fred Shero certainly helped to spread hockey here-I mean, without those 2 cup wins, I don't believe the Flyers would have the support they do today.

A guy using Alexandre Daigle's name is calling someone else "fruity"?

Yes, I like hockey, not stick-swinging, knuckle-busting, gang-jumping roller derby! I would rather see Pavel Datsyuk deke out 4 players and score an incredible goal than see that Parro clown in California "skate" 2 shifts a game doing nothing more than looking for someone to fight with. Intimidation? HA! A jerk like that doesn't intimidate ANYONE, let alone a star player. And that's why there are penalties against that sort of thing.

Maybe hockey became more popular in Philly because of the Flyers reign of terror, but is that really a good thing? The artistry of the game is such that we (real hockey fans) sometimes have to put up with the junk (fighting, slashing, cuts to the face, etc.), but when the game is played correctly (see Detroit Red Wings, 1996-2003) it is a beautiful game to watch.

JMHO.

 

[04' hockey]

.....care to explain John Ferguson, Rick Chartraw, Gilles Lupien, Chris Nilan, Lyle Odelien, Gino Odjick etc., etc.?

I'm waiting, Classic Hockey?

cat got your tongue?, c'mon, impress me with your wisdom.

 

[Roger's Pancreas*]

A guy using Alexandre Daigle's name is calling someone else "fruity"?

Yes, I like hockey, not stick-swinging, knuckle-busting, gang-jumping roller derby! I would rather see Pavel Datsyuk deke out 4 players and score an incredible goal than see that Parro clown in California "skate" 2 shifts a game doing nothing more than looking for someone to fight with. Intimidation? HA! A jerk like that doesn't intimidate ANYONE, let alone a star player. And that's why there are penalties against that sort of thing.

To insinuate that the Philadelphia Flyers of 1974 were a group of 20 players modeled after George Parros is beyond blasphemy. It's pure ignorance!

Maybe hockey became more popular in Philly because of the Flyers reign of terror, but is that really a good thing?

Is tradition a good thing? Absolutely.

The artistry of the game is such that we (real hockey fans) sometimes have to put up with the junk (fighting, slashing, cuts to the face, etc.), but when the game is played correctly (see Detroit Red Wings, 1996-2003) it is a beautiful game to watch.

I agree, but for different reasons. The Red Wings were great to watch because they had the complete package. They had the dynamic skill fo Sergei Fedorov along with the grit of players like Darren McCarty, Kris Draper, Kirt Maltby, Chris Chelios and Martin LaPointe. The same blend of skill and grit can be seen in the 74 Philadelphia Flyers if you take the jaded glasses off.

 

[Zine]

It was Hockey Hall of Fame inductee Conn Smythe who said, ""If you can't beat 'em in the alley, you won't beat 'em on the ice.".

Right, but in Conn Smythe's day the tough guys could also play the game....big difference from 'Flyer' hockey. Philly was a team with a lot of talent but also a lot players that would be without a job if they were forced to use their hockey skills.

There's nothing better than tough hockey, but there's nothing worse than a team with a disproportionate amount of no talent goons who's sole purpose is to drop the gloves.

Also, it was the North American Hockey League, a forerunner of the ECHL, in which Ned Dowd, the three Carlson Brothers, Dave "Killer" Hanson (the names were switched for the movie) and Billy "Goldie" Goldthorpe played. It was the 1974-75 season that was the model, and most of the outrageous things were potrayed very closely to how they really happened.

Big deal, the Flyers perpetuated this caricature at the highest level. They were the biggest draw around the league not because they were good but b/c they were a traveling side-show.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Right, but in Conn Smythe's day the tough guys could also play the game....big difference from 'Flyer' hockey. Philly was a team with a lot of talent but also a lot players that would be without a job if they were forced to use their hockey skills.

There's nothing better than tough hockey, but there's nothing worse than a team with a disproportionate amount of no talent goons who's sole purpose is to drop the gloves.

I'd love to hear this list of players that had no talent.

The only forward on the Stanley Cup winning teams that never reached the 20 goal mark at least once in his career was Terry Crisp, 4th line center,/penalty killer.

 

[Roger's Pancreas*]

Right, but in Conn Smythe's day the tough guys could also play the game....big difference from 'Flyer' hockey. Philly was a team with a lot of talent but also a lot players that would be without a job if they were forced to use their hockey skills.

There's nothing better than tough hockey, but there's nothing worse than a team with a disproportionate amount of no talent goons who's sole purpose is to drop the gloves.

Who on that team was a no-talent goon? Enlighten me, because I think any player who can score 30 points while spending 300+ minutes in a box must have some shred of ability. If we're talking "no-talent" then Link Gaetz or Stu Grimson should be the focal point of the discussion.

Big deal, the Flyers perpetuated this caricature at the highest level. They were the biggest draw around the league not because they were good but b/c they were a traveling side-show.

Bernie Parent, Bobby Clarke, Rick MacLeish, Ed Van Impe, Gary Dornhoefer, Reggie Leach, Andre Dupont and Bill Barber weren't good?

 

[jiggs 10]

Who on that team was a no-talent goon? Enlighten me, because I think any player who can score 30 points while spending 300+ minutes in a box must have some shred of ability. If we're talking "no-talent" then Link Gaetz or Stu Grimson should be the focal point of the discussion.Bernie Parent, Bobby Clarke, Rick MacLeish, Ed Van Impe, Gary Dornhoefer, Reggie Leach, Andre Dupont and Bill Barber weren't good?

The highlighted players were not good. Dornhofer is the best of them, and he would never make the NHL today. Dupont could barely stand up on skates, he was hilarious to watch!

And for John Flyer's Fan: Bob Kelly, Don Saleski, Bill Clement, Jim Watson, Tom Bladon, Terry Crisp, etc. were not very high quality NHL players at any time. Useful, maybe, to fill in for the "stars" when they were in the box or suspended, but not much more than that.