You just said a guy who scored 542 points (a .689 PPG average) in the NHL was not a good hockey player. I don't think I need to continue.
Fred Shero deserves to be in the HOF!
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surely you jest.....
Dupont and Crisp were FINE skaters and Watson, especially defensively and Bladon were GOOD hockey players.....all four got a lot of ice time. That Flyers TEAM and those PLAYERS beat the Bruins(ORR, Espo) and Sabres(Perrault,Robert, Martin) in the finals.....deal with it.
Read your NHL Guide and Record Book re: 1974 + 1975.....enjoy
Yes, many of those goons had little talent. Guys like Kocur, Odjick, Semenko, McRae, etc. also had 30 point seasons. Does that make them talented as well?
The guys you mentioned were very talented....but that's also what the problem is. Despite this talent, they had to resort to the lowest common denominator to win. Flyers hockey was NOT 'old time hockey'. Great hockey is when fighting is a byproduct of the intensity and flow of the game. Sending some thug on the ice to pummel your opponent from the opening faceoff is just cheap and does a disservice to the sport.
Ummmm.... Jimmy Watson was a five-time NHL all star and a member of Team Canada at the '76 Canada Cup. I'd say he was a pretty good NHL player.
Saleski made himself into a fine penalty killer and pretty consistent 20+ goal scorer as a third line player as his career rolled along.
And getting back to the original topic, Shero won at every level he coached before reaching the NHL, was a major innovator in the NHL in terms of introducing assistant coaches, was one of the first North Americans to recognize that there were plenty of players in Europe worthy of playing in the NHL (more on that in a second) and took two different NHL teams to the Cup Finals.
In 1973, after watching Börje Salming play against the Flyers Shero told famous Flyers beat writer Jack Chevalier of the Philadelphia Bulletin, "We should have more Europeans and Russians in the league. But management can't get it into their fat heads they're good enough to play. They always say, 'they lack this or they lack that.' What do they lack? Nothing. Not even guts."
Shero made almost yearly offseason trips to Russia -- vividly described in the book "The Broad Street Bullies" -- to attend hockey clinics and visit Tarasov.
Shero was a complicated guy. He was certainly eccentric and yes, he did drink heavily. None of that takes away from his success as a coach or the fact he belongs in the HHOF.
In some ways, the Broad Street Bullies were a myth. No team ever gooned its way to the Cup, including the Flyers.
The Flyers had three HOFers (Clarke, Parent and Barber), several all-star caliber players (MacLeish, Jimmy Watson, Reggie Leach), an outstanding leadership core with several future NHL head coaches in the ranks, and a solid cast of role players rounding out the lineup.
And yes, they certainly did fight a lot and Clarke was a master at stickwork. Schultz in particular really pushed the envelope and they tried to intimidate other teams. All that is true.
But they were an excellent all-around hockey team with great goaltending and virtually unbeatable on home ice.
Keith Allen built the team, but Shero got them to buy into the system in a big way.
Saleski made himself into a fine penalty killer and pretty consistent 20+ goal scorer as a third line player as his career rolled along.
And getting back to the original topic, Shero won at every level he coached before reaching the NHL, was a major innovator in the NHL in terms of introducing assistant coaches, was one of the first North Americans to recognize that there were plenty of players in Europe worthy of playing in the NHL (more on that in a second) and took two different NHL teams to the Cup Finals.
In 1973, after watching Börje Salming play against the Flyers Shero told famous Flyers beat writer Jack Chevalier of the Philadelphia Bulletin, "We should have more Europeans and Russians in the league. But management can't get it into their fat heads they're good enough to play. They always say, 'they lack this or they lack that.' What do they lack? Nothing. Not even guts."
Shero made almost yearly offseason trips to Russia -- vividly described in the book "The Broad Street Bullies" -- to attend hockey clinics and visit Tarasov.
Shero was a complicated guy. He was certainly eccentric and yes, he did drink heavily. None of that takes away from his success as a coach or the fact he belongs in the HHOF.
In some ways, the Broad Street Bullies were a myth. No team ever gooned its way to the Cup, including the Flyers.
The Flyers had three HOFers (Clarke, Parent and Barber), several all-star caliber players (MacLeish, Jimmy Watson, Reggie Leach), an outstanding leadership core with several future NHL head coaches in the ranks, and a solid cast of role players rounding out the lineup.
And yes, they certainly did fight a lot and Clarke was a master at stickwork. Schultz in particular really pushed the envelope and they tried to intimidate other teams. All that is true.
But they were an excellent all-around hockey team with great goaltending and virtually unbeatable on home ice.
Keith Allen built the team, but Shero got them to buy into the system in a big way.
FlyerFire
Registered User
For those bashing Shero and those early Flyers teams, can you name the one altercation that created the whole Flyers identity?
Evil Sather
YOU KILL THE JOE
I know little of the specifics of the Flyers team of the 70s but please: the Rangers making the cup finals had far, far, far more to do with Phil Esposito's last burst, Don Maloney's emergence as a rookie, and above all else, John Davidson going unconcious and playing the hockey of his life than Fred Shero.
surely you jest.....
Dupont and Crisp were FINE skaters and Watson, especially defensively and Bladon were GOOD hockey players.....all four got a lot of ice time. That Flyers TEAM and those PLAYERS beat the Bruins(ORR, Espo) and Sabres(Perrault,Robert, Martin) in the finals.....deal with it.
Read your NHL Guide and Record Book re: 1974 + 1975.....enjoy
I have an even better source: "The Hockey Chronicle: Year-By-Year History of the National Hockey League", written and approved by the NHL. Page 348: "What went on when the Flyers played was legilized mayhem...Purists denounced the Flyers as a collection of brawling no-goods. Enemies needled them as overrated phonies. And the NHL office warned them that they were treading on thin, punitive ice." "If you keep the opposition on their behinds, they don't score goals" was a quote by Fred Shero in 1973-74. Dave "The Hammer" Schultz spent a (then) record 348 minutes in the box. "I get so worked up, I don't know what's going on", Schultz admitted.
And on page 365: "In 1974-75, the Flyers were the NHL's best team, and it's dirtiest. The Broad Street Bullies terrorized the NHL, and no player more typlified their nasty approach than Dave Schultz. While the Flyers soared, Schultz sank to new lows. He spent an all-time record 472 minutes (6.21 PIM per game) in the sin bin, while scoring just 9 goals."
Shero was a great coach? Not really, he just got players to buy into a dirty system of playing hockey, and it worked for 3 years. Then the hockey world got revenge by seeing Shero sent packing to New York while the Canadiens ruled the roost for 4 years, and Shero was fired to make room for Herb Brooks in New York in 1981.
Fred Shero coached hockey the way he always played it tough and hard. He was a student of the game and was among the first high level hockey people to recognise the beauty of the Russian brand of hockey.The Flyers did live up to their promise of being the first expansion team to win a Stanley Cup and up until his time the "additional six" suffered from legitimacy problems. Shero also wrote for its time a fairly advanced book on coaching so it wasn't like he was ever trying to hide anything. The goon theory doesn't really hold much water, then or now. Love it or hate it it made for good box office and media cover, and maybe there really isn't sucha thing as bad publicity.The Pittsburg Penguins of that day were pretty goonie and didn't have much success and some of the WHA teams during that era for example the Los Angles Sharks under Terry Slater made extensive use of that so called technique. Sometimes success leads to imitation. There was an incredible amount of fighting and line brawling all the way down to the junior hockey levels of that time as well. It wasn't pretty hockey, nor were the Flyers the most talented team to ever play the game, but they did win and they did win honest.
Shero deserves a spot in the HHOF
Shero deserves a spot in the HHOF
FlyerFire
Registered User
oh well I guess not.Anyways, in 1968 playoffs, Noel Picard of the ST LOUIS BLUES sucker punched Claude LaForge of the Flyers sending him down in a pool of blood and ending his hockey career.He would never play another game.After this incident, Snider said something to the effect of, never again will a Flyers team be brutalized like that again.So all this *****in' about the Flyers teams of the 70s can end.You think the BIG BAD BRUINS were the greatest of athletes? They had great teams back then.So did St Louis, Detroit, etc.The Flyers were a result of their atmosphere, they just learned how to do it better and win thats all get over it.HOF for Shero
Well, Jigs, maybe you'll step up about.....John Ferguson, Chris Nilan, Gilles Lupien, Lyle Odelien, John Kordic, Gino Ojdick etc., etc. Classic Hockey is welcome to join the conversation.
Well fellas??
The Flyers, er, the Stanley Cup Champion Flyers, were just a team of the times, the toughest team of those times.....somebody had to be.
If Bob Clarke had played for the Habs there'd be a statue of him right next to ol' Slugger, Mr. Richard. Have a nice day.
mcphee
Registered User
C'mon, looks count in Montreal.Well, Jigs, maybe you'll step up about.....John Ferguson, Chris Nilan, Gilles Lupien, Lyle Odelien, John Kordic, Gino Ojdick etc., etc. Classic Hockey is welcome to join the conversation.
Well fellas??
The Flyers, er, the Stanley Cup Champion Flyers, were just a team of the times, the toughest team of those times.....somebody had to be.
of hiIf Bob Clarke had played for the Habs there'd be a statue m right next to ol' Slugger, Mr. Richard. Have a nice day.
Well, Jigs, maybe you'll step up about.....John Ferguson, Chris Nilan, Gilles Lupien, Lyle Odelien, John Kordic, Gino Ojdick etc., etc. Classic Hockey is welcome to join the conversation.
Well fellas??
The Flyers, er, the Stanley Cup Champion Flyers, were just a team of the times, the toughest team of those times.....somebody had to be.
If Bob Clarke had played for the Habs there'd be a statue of him right next to ol' Slugger, Mr. Richard. Have a nice day.
Well, the highlighted players were all terrible players except Ferguson, who was just a snake! Had talent, but didn't use it very often. Scored 20 goals once, back when that meant a little (although not that much, since D-men were scoring that many).
I agree, Richard was a very rough player who would spend half a season suspended in this day and age. But he could also lead the league in goals, which none of the rest of the thugs you mentioned could ever do, not even "Mr. Clean" Booby (sic) Clarke. I'm not the biggest Montreal fan, just was glad a SKILLED team came along to thump the Flyers and end their reign of terror. And the Isles continued the tradition of the best ALL-AROUND team winning the Cup (skilled, tough, clutch, etc.) before the Oilers showed the other way to win the Cup: out-skilling a team! Speed, passing, shooting, and good goaltending will prevail over goonery 8 out of 10 times, with the Flyers' 2 marred Cups the 2 out of 10 where it didn't.
Agree to disagree: I don't think Shero is a HOF coach. JMHO. And the Flyers were bad for hockey in 1973-76. Many people's opinion.
There was more than a little envy involved in that.
The people who said the Flyers were bad for hockey were mostly in the "old guard" of the original six era who didn't like to see a maverick expansion team win two Cups and reach the Finals the next year off one of the most dominant home-ice records in hockey history.
They liked it much better when the talent-needy expansion clubs went down meekly.
Well, the highlighted players were all terrible players except Ferguson, who was just a snake! Had talent, but didn't use it very often. Scored 20 goals once, back when that meant a little (although not that much, since D-men were scoring that many).
I agree, Richard was a very rough player who would spend half a season suspended in this day and age. But he could also lead the league in goals, which none of the rest of the thugs you mentioned could ever do, not even "Mr. Clean" Booby (sic) Clarke.
Check their career ppg averages.....Clarke's is HIGHER
eh?
pappyline
Registered User
First time I ever heard talent & john Fergus0n used in the same sentence. 20 goals once. Hell a pylon could score 20 goals once in a career on that team.
While I am a huge Bobby Clarke fan, and I rate Bobby Clarke among the top 20 players of all-time, using point-per-game in a debate involving Clarke and Richard is weak at best.
When Richard was playing, defencemen didn't get involved in the rush, and he had to face an HHOF goalie every night. Give Richard a chance to play against some of the goalies that played post-Original 6 - obviously there were a lot of great goalies post-Original 6, but there were also some pretty terrible ones - and Richard goes for 70-plus goals and 150 points per season.
We saw during the war years what Richard was capable of when he wasn't facing an HHOF-calibre goalie on a nightly basis.
When Richard was playing, defencemen didn't get involved in the rush, and he had to face an HHOF goalie every night. Give Richard a chance to play against some of the goalies that played post-Original 6 - obviously there were a lot of great goalies post-Original 6, but there were also some pretty terrible ones - and Richard goes for 70-plus goals and 150 points per season.
We saw during the war years what Richard was capable of when he wasn't facing an HHOF-calibre goalie on a nightly basis.
mcphee
Registered User
Pappy, you're just mad because of him fighting Hull while his jaw was wired. Is the rumour true that Mrs.Hull thanked Fergy for that one ?
pappyline
Registered User
reckoning
Registered User
- Jan 4, 2005
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The NHL may have pretended to dislike the Flyers tactics, but they never did anything about it. The Flyers were the biggest draw in the league attendance-wise for several years once the "Broad Street Bullies" reputation was born. The NHL was more than happy about what they doing, though it would've been politically incorrect to admit it.
While I am a huge Bobby Clarke fan, and I rate Bobby Clarke among the top 20 players of all-time, using point-per-game in a debate involving Clarke and Richard is weak at best.
When Richard was playing, defencemen didn't get involved in the rush, and he had to face an HHOF goalie every night. Give Richard a chance to play against some of the goalies that played post-Original 6 - obviously there were a lot of great goalies post-Original 6, but there were also some pretty terrible ones - and Richard goes for 70-plus goals and 150 points per season.
We saw during the war years what Richard was capable of when he wasn't facing an HHOF-calibre goalie on a nightly basis.[/QUOTE
What did the greatest player (Mr. ORR, of course) of all time say about Clarke?.....
"He could play on any of my teams"
enough for me
Of course Orr would say that Clarke could play on his team. Who wouldn't want Clarke on their team? As I said earlier, he's one of my top 20 players ever. Certainly a guy I'd want on the ice in any situation, a guy I'd want on my team in a Game 7 type situation, and a guy I'd want as my captain.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
jiggs 10;8155155 Check their career ppg averages.....Clarke's is HIGHER :dunno: said:warrior, Captained the Flyers to two consecutive Stanley Cups.[/B]
eh?
1.06 for Clarke vs. .988 for Richard on PPG, but GOALS per game is .556 for Richard vs. .31 for Clarke.
Highlighted phrase could also be Richard, except change it to SCORER and 5 straight Cups for the Canadiens.
Whatever, I'm done in this thread. Shero doesn't make MY HOF, I hope he doesn't make the actual HHOF. 'Nuff said.
