Franzen & Kronwall

[RedWingsNow*]

I've seen Datsyuk's play picked apart.

But here are two extremely surprising stats that I've not seen anyone mention much.


Kronwall 0 goals, 2 assists
Franzen 6 points, -7 (worst on the team)

Kronwall's work on the powerplay was a big disappointment this year. If he can't step it up, I'd like to see Kindl and/or Smith on the first unit.
I'm not to disappointed in Kronwall's overall play in the playoffs, because I think he was our only stable defenseman on a consistent basis. Ericsson too often reverted to his old gaffe-prone self. And the other guys were all rookies and press boxers.

Franzen had a third straight poor playoff. I'm not sure why he plays with Datsyuk. He and Datsyuk aren't very effective together. Zetterberg and Franzen have much better chemistry.

In his last 3 seasons, Franzen has 27 games 7 goals 3 assists and is -9
Multiply that by 3.

81 games, 21 goals, 9 assists, 30 points, -27

This is the guy we kept because he's a playoff stud.

I think Franzen's incredible 150 game run wasn't the real Franzen. But he's better than we've seen of him.

Putting him back on Z's line will help him. He won't be the 40+ goal pace guy he looked like, but he'll be better

Click to read more...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Have no understanding of why Babcock doesn't play Zetterberg and Franzen together, one of my biggest gripes with Babcock.

Kronwall is our #1 D. We can all debate whether or not he is good enough to be given that title. But his offensive disappearance in the playoffs was pretty bad. One of his biggest problems this year is he is better as the second guy really on the PP. He sneaks around, he isn't a great option in terms of running it in the middle and trying to get shots through. I think both Kindl and Smith have an edge there.

Kronwall scored enough in the regular season but at times his defensive play was very spotty while he was doing it. Then when his D was good in the playoffs his offense evaporated, fair to ask why. Does his offense have to come at the sacrifice of defense or vice-versa?

 

[Frk It]

I think Kronwall played significantly better defensively the last 1/3 of the regular season and into the playoffs. Yes his offense dipped, but I thought he was way more responsible in his own end and handled his minutes much better for the last segment of the season.

I'm more surprised than anything that no one was able to step up and really be a PPQB among our d-men. I actually thought Kindl looked like the best QB for the PP for a good stretch of the season, which is a surprise to me. Kronwall and Smith are awesome in transition, but I expected both of them to be more effective on the PP, and they seemed to struggle when we set up a cycle as opposed to joining rushes.

I agree Franzen is usually more effective with Z than D, he played awesome in the last 10-12 games of the regular season, but he didn't have a great post season IMO. I'd like to see a line of either Brunner-Z-Franzen or Nyquist-Z-Franzen next year for some games. Franzen is always tough to judge for me because some nights it seems like he is skating around on a $5 open skate, and then some nights he looks like a dominant power forward. It's weird.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Would love to see the Swedish line.

Nyquist - Z - Franzen

We know we probably at least get to see Franzen and Z together at some point next year, problem is that will be the Olympics. They seem to pair up and with pretty good success for Sweden more than they do in Detroit.

 

[Frk It]

Would love to see the Swedish line.

Nyquist - Z - Franzen

We know we probably at least get to see Franzen and Z together at some point next year, problem is that will be the Olympics. They seem to pair up and with pretty good success for Sweden more than they do in Detroit.

Ditto.

Would have a Swedish 5 with

Nyquist-Z-Franzen
Kronwall-Ericsson

 

[Heaton]

I think Kronwall was more focused on defense this season than offense, but I have no issues with dialing back his responsibility a bit and letting guys like Smith and Kindl get more of a shot.

As for Franzen, who knows. I just think some of the issues that these guys have is the lack of depth. I don't think Franzen is a guy who can be counted on to carry a huge load and while the lifetime deal looks bad, on a short term I think it would be easier to see. But regardless, he needs to be better, I think given more support he will be.

 

[A1Portable]

Would love to see the Swedish line.

Nyquist - Z - Franzen

We know we probably at least get to see Franzen and Z together at some point next year, problem is that will be the Olympics. They seem to pair up and with pretty good success for Sweden more than they do in Detroit.

Nyquist - Z - Franzen

I agree.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Franzen sounds good

But what's your second line?

And then you've got zero talent left for your third line

Tatar Datsyuk Iginla (or some UFA)
Franzen Zetterberg Eaves (Miller)
Nyquist Andersson Brunner
Abdelkader Helm Tootoo

 

[joe89]

I don't like Kronwall being "the" PP guy, but I don't like the prospect of Kindl and Smith being it too much either. Same consistency issues with their shots. Kronwall has never paced below 35 points since his rookie campaign and has kinda earned some level of trust to begin with post-Lidstrom era. And it's kinda hard to be disappointed with his first half-year, playoffs or not. However he should be the distribution guy on a PP, not the trigger man, and that's the biggest problem for me. I hate Datsyuk and Zetterberg passing the puck around just to set up Kronwall for a point shot. That's not how he puts up his point and he's not Lidstrom. New players, new strategy.

Next season I would try Kronwall and Kindl to see if Kindl can do some damage with better confidence. But long term I think the answer comes from free agency or deeper down the system.

Franzen like has been said should be nowhere near Datsyuk. He looks lost and is standing around watching too much. If you play with Pavel you gotta move your feet and be ready to shoot. Try Brunner there. Tatar? Why not. But I think we'll see Babcock play Abdelkader there again, while he keeps some talent for the lower lines(Tatar-Helm-Samuelsson?).

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I don't like Kronwall being "the" PP guy, but I don't like the prospect of Kindl and Smith being it too much either. Same consistency issues with their shots. Kronwall has never paced below 35 points since his rookie campaign and has kinda earned some level of trust to begin with post-Lidstrom era. And it's kinda hard to be disappointed with his first half-year, playoffs or not. However he should be the distribution guy on a PP, not the trigger man, and that's the biggest problem for me. I hate Datsyuk and Zetterberg passing the puck around just to set up Kronwall for a point shot. That's not how he puts up his point and he's not Lidstrom. New players, new strategy.

Next season I would try Kronwall and Kindl to see if Kindl can do some damage with better confidence. But long term I think the answer comes from free agency or deeper down the system.

Franzen like has been said should be nowhere near Datsyuk. He looks lost and is standing around watching too much. If you play with Pavel you gotta move your feet and be ready to shoot. Try Brunner there. Tatar? Why not. But I think we'll see Babcock play Abdelkader there again, while he keeps some talent for the lower lines(Tatar-Helm-Samuelsson?).

Agreed all around until --- tatar-helm-Samuelsson -- which is disgustingly awful.

This year, i never understood how Brunner went from playing with Zetterberg to the 3rd and 4th line. Brunner seems like a natural fit with Datsyuk

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Agreed all around until --- tatar-helm-Samuelsson -- which is disgustingly awful.

This year, i never understood how Brunner went from playing with Zetterberg to the 3rd and 4th line. Brunner seems like a natural fit with Datsyuk

At times Brunner's hockey IQ was found wanting. I have no such worries about Tatar with Datsyuk, he will go to the net and he will find dead areas. Once he gets used to Datsyuk they will be an interesting pairing. Much like once he got used to Nyquist down in Grand Rapids he started feeding off what Gus liked to do. I like that about Tatar a lot, not sure he is ready for the top line right away, but he isn't a guy that needs the puck a lot. Brunner seems to need it a lot, although he was adjusting to that better so maybe he is growing there.

I know we assume a lot that Datsyuk is the easier guy to play with. But it is almost always Z with everyone. Datsyuk is so unique, it would help if we could find someone who works off of him. I think Tatar has a lot of potential there, if we don't chase a bigger guy like Ryan, who I could see being a great fit.

 

[Frk It]

At times Brunner's hockey IQ was found wanting. I have no such worries about Tatar with Datsyuk, he will go to the net and he will find dead areas. Once he gets used to Datsyuk they will be an interesting pairing. Much like once he got used to Nyquist down in Grand Rapids he started feeding off what Gus liked to do. I like that about Tatar a lot, not sure he is ready for the top line right away, but he isn't a guy that needs the puck a lot. Brunner seems to need it a lot, although he was adjusting to that better so maybe he is growing there..

Brunner overhandles the puck and Brunner keeps the puck on his stick for too long before he releases his shot. If he would simplify his stickhandling and learn to shoot snap shots I think he would be a lot more successful.

 

[Heaton]

Datsyuk has had issues with skilled linemates in the past, maybe it would be different with brunner, nyquist or tatar.

 

[Frk It]

Datsyuk has had issues with skilled linemates in the past, maybe it would be different with brunner, nyquist or tatar.

I would like to see Tatar with Datsyuk, and Nyquist with Zetterberg ideally. But I know one or both of them will be on the 3rd line next year most likely.

 

[joe89]

Agreed all around until --- tatar-helm-Samuelsson -- which is disgustingly awful.

This year, i never understood how Brunner went from playing with Zetterberg to the 3rd and 4th line. Brunner seems like a natural fit with Datsyuk

I think Helm could glue a line like that together pretty good, but it was just an example.

With Brunner they probably liked that 3rd line too much to mess with it, hoping they could fix the other three lines without adjusting the one working. I see him in the top six next season anyway, hopefully with Pavel. Maybe they'll try Tatar-Andy-Nyquist if Helm remains out, who knows.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I want us to have 3 puck possession lines next year.
The reason why we had success this playoffs is because we almost did have 3 lines that could control the puck and wear out defenses.
Unfortunately, all of the lines were just a little bit too weak.

Nyquist and Tatar + a UFA make this a real possibility.

Helm is not a puck possession player. He's a chaser.

If you have Abdelkader/Helm/Tootoo as your fourthline, that's about as close to an old glorydays grindline as you'll get.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

At times Brunner's hockey IQ was found wanting. I have no such worries about Tatar with Datsyuk, he will go to the net and he will find dead areas. Once he gets used to Datsyuk they will be an interesting pairing. Much like once he got used to Nyquist down in Grand Rapids he started feeding off what Gus liked to do. I like that about Tatar a lot, not sure he is ready for the top line right away, but he isn't a guy that needs the puck a lot. Brunner seems to need it a lot, although he was adjusting to that better so maybe he is growing there.

I know we assume a lot that Datsyuk is the easier guy to play with. But it is almost always Z with everyone. Datsyuk is so unique, it would help if we could find someone who works off of him. I think Tatar has a lot of potential there, if we don't chase a bigger guy like Ryan, who I could see being a great fit.

Tatar isnt interested in making pretty plays and deking people out. He likes to score. I've played against and with guys like him. They are a certain breed. I often can't stand their kind - but they are required.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Tatar isnt interested in making pretty plays and deking people out. He likes to score. I've played against and with guys like him. They are a certain breed. I often can't stand their kind - but they are required.

He can do some of those things, but you're right he doesn't do them when it isn't dictated that he needs to do them. He doesn't care how pretty it looks other than sometimes trying to pick corners a little too much.

Tatar plays a straight forward mature offensive game. He understands where you score from and how you need to get there. It will be interesting to see how quickly that adapts to the next level. Pretty willing to give him a pass next year while he figures that out. But if he can make that jump he becomes exciting, though numbers will differ on where he winds up, he certainly has a goal scorers feel to him.

But like you said he plays the kind of game you don't like to defend against, he just seems to arrive an awful lot at the right moments and it makes him a pain to defend. But that is also where confidence is pretty important to him, when he is reading and feeling the game while on a roll he is a monster, but he can disappear at times because a lot of his game is anticipation in my opinion.

 

[Brick Top]

Datsyuk has had issues with skilled linemates in the past, maybe it would be different with brunner, nyquist or tatar.

Well, that was certainly addressed by giving him Abby and Cleary to play with for a chunk of last year. Apart from putting Lashoff on his wing, I don't see how Babs could have done more to keep skill off Pavel's line.

Seriously though, I do wonder if D's insane creatively is too hard or unorthodox for most players to follow on his wing at times.

 

[Kronwalled55]

I honestly think Franzen would PLAY better on the 3rd line, as far as contributing on a shift-basis. I believe this was tested when he hit a slump either this year or last, and he played great so he got put with Datsyuk again. Just food for thought, I know we're not putting a 4 mil forward on our third line.

It all depends on what you want from Franzen. If you want someone to put up solid goal numbers for a 4 mil per year forward, you probably don't care how gets them. But if you want him to play like old playoff-Franzen on most nights (points aside), then maybe you change some things.

 

[Heaton]

Well, that was certainly addressed by giving him Abby and Cleary to play with for a chunk of last year. Apart from putting Lashoff on his wing, I don't see how Babs could have done more to keep skill off Pavel's line.

Seriously though, I do wonder if D's insane creatively is too hard or unorthodox for most players to follow on his wing at times.

Well, he's had issues (or his wingers have had issues) with Franzen, Shanahan and Hossa. They all were productive, but never seemed to mesh. Go look back at the threads when Hossa was here, people complained all season.

 

[joe89]

Well, that was certainly addressed by giving him Abby and Cleary to play with for a chunk of last year. Apart from putting Lashoff on his wing, I don't see how Babs could have done more to keep skill off Pavel's line.

Seriously though, I do wonder if D's insane creatively is too hard or unorthodox for most players to follow on his wing at times.

Too unorthodox for non smart players anyway. Straight-forward tweener types or second tier skill guys don't seem to matter much in terms of his production. The former guys give him some more space, the latter guys give him some more pucks. It kinda evens out.

 

[19 for president]

Well, he's had issues (or his wingers have had issues) with Franzen, Shanahan and Hossa. They all were productive, but never seemed to mesh. Go look back at the threads when Hossa was here, people complained all season.

Pavel doesn't do well with wingers that want to hold onto the puck and guys that spend most of their time shooting from the circles. Why a young Z and Hull were so effective with Dats was because they knew how to move without the puck, how to get to the quiet areas, and how to be ready for that one timer. Franzen and Hossa are both guys that like to skate with the puck. Franzen has been at his most effective when he was allowed to carry the puck and determine the set up of his line. Dats and Z are notlonger super efficient because Z's body has largely give out on him. He isn't as fast and his shot isn't nearly as good as it used to be. For this reason Z has changed his game to focus more on playmaking, which is just fine but Datsyuk should be the playmaker on whatever line he is on.

As for Homer and Dats. It took them almost 2 seasons to really develop any sort of chemistry. That line worked from the start because of Z's chemistry and understanding of both players. You didn't see a ton of Homer/ Dats plays until later. So while I wasn't thrilled with Abs playing with Dats last year, I did begin to see some hints that they were starting to figure eachother out as the year went along. If the Wings can aquire a good skilled shooting winger for Dats, I think Abs could compliment them, but you can't put Abs on that line with another grinder like Cleary.

 

[Heaton]

Datsyuk has had issues with skilled linemates in the past, maybe it would be different with brunner, nyquist or tatar.

 

[Brick Top]

Well, he's had issues (or his wingers have had issues) with Franzen, Shanahan and Hossa. They all were productive, but never seemed to mesh. Go look back at the threads when Hossa was here, people complained all season.

Yeah, I can imagine the complaints from back in the day. Tbh, if a world class talent like Hossa struggles to develop chemistry with a center, I'll say that it may not ALL be on the wing players.

Like others have said, it's time to just put Franzen with Z and end the Datsyuk experiment. Still don't want them to settle for sticking Pavel with subpar linemates though.