As for player development, clearly you like it to be linear and predictable. Good for you that EHM provides that in spades - just look for guys with high determination and a good PA and you'll be golden.
Now, since real sport isn't actually like that, I prefer a game with some degree - note some degree, not consistent or unrealistic amounts - of randomisation of development within it.
I personally am not at all convinced that FHM even uses the "OOTP development model" (I don't think it does)Now, OOTP's development model doesn't translate well to FHM, IMO, because in baseball player development is far more subject to the whims of chance than in hockey.
There is a fresh database every season (there even was in the many years that development had ceased; there's been a fresh database every year since 2004)This issue is precisely why I struggle to remain interested in EHM unless there's a fresh database every season.
Actually brentdog I spoke up because you were saying things that were false...when Habsfan18 spoke positively about FHM but stated an opinion you didn't like ("The main things FHM must work on, are more realistic player paths and career development, and AI handling of players") you started incorrectly talking about what EHM couldn't do
You just don't get it do you...If I'm "attacking" at all, it's not FHM, it's the approach of the "supporters"
Actually if Attributes still develop then it doesn't matter if the CA and PA match, development is still occuring (that's why I'm not sure you understood)I said that the player development in EHM is hard coded in - and it is, because a player in EHM cannot ever exceed his initially created potential ability - and that there was more variation in potential in FHM2, which is also true.
Yeah, not sure why you keep referencing FM (jealous of it's success?); I don't care how FM works/never played it, but I do know that what you said about EHM and how it works conflicts with what Riz told meI have provided details, which are available online if you care to look for them, of how player development in the Football Manager stable of games works, as well as evidence of players occasionally outperforming their potential in FHM2
That "vague stuff" just done in the last couple months is more than I've seen on OOTP and FHM combined in 4 years...I figure you either don't like data and facts and/or don't bother trying to understand it (which is your right, but then don't speak authoritatively about what you don't understand)All you've come up with is some vague stuff about how you'd done some 'testing' and didn't believe this, instead referring to it as a widely held but misinformed opinion
No, the "attacks" (if you want to call them that) were on the OOTP/FHM supporters, not the games themselves; since my position was the "supporters" are a problem I supported my positionYou've then followed up with general attacks on FHM2 and indeed OOTP.
Actually I said "I wish FHM all the best" & "I think the FHM system for Attributes is potentially more robust than that of EHM (and if all is working as intended significantly more robust)" & "I'm glad you like it/are happy" & "I've posted more about problems/issues in EHM than anyone" & "I've bought every version of FHM at full price. I also bought OOTP twice to support the company/support FHM development (though I've never played OOTP/have no interest in baseball)"There's only one fanboy supporter who's intolerant of others opinions here and that's not me.
There is a fresh database every season (there even was in the many years that development had ceased; there's been a fresh database every year since 2004)
The TBL Roster team is working on the 2016-17 database now & EHM is still being updated/improved upon, so it's expected that nearer the start of the IRL NHL season the ability to start in 2016 will be added to EHM (just like the 2015 start date was added last year)
Fair comment/I can understand thatThe problem for me is that the game engine doesn't do enough with that fresh database to keep the gameplay fresh over multiple saves. EHM requires a fresh database to keep its shelf life, in other words. My enthusiasm for playing EHM is at its peak when a new database is released, but it wanes steadily over the year between releases until I stop playing altogether.
Actually if Attributes still develop then it doesn't matter if the CA and PA match, development is still occuring (that's why I'm not sure you understood)
Yeah, not sure why you keep referencing FM (jealous of it's success?); I don't care how FM works/never played it, but I do know that what you said about EHM and how it works conflicts with what Riz told me
I don't understand how you think a game (FM) that has so many sales and so many people working on it and a couple decades of yearly development can just be ported over to a rebooted EHM - just like almost nothing from OOTP could be ported over to FHM - were you not around in 2012 and 2013? Is this why you don't know these things?)
That "vague stuff" just done in the last couple months is more than I've seen on OOTP and FHM combined in 4 years...I figure you either don't like data and facts and/or don't bother trying to understand it (which is your right, but then don't speak authoritatively about what you don't understand)
No, the "attacks" (if you want to call them that) were on the OOTP/FHM supporters, not the games themselves; since my position was the "supporters" are a problem I supported my position
After the disastrous failure of the initial release my biggest concerns about FHM were #1 it wouldn't get the chance/time to continuously improve, which so far happily does not seem to be the case! & #2 the FHM supporters will so damage the potential market that the game won't sell enough (like getting the FHM Forum shut down last year at TBL because they refused to follow the TBL Guidelines and felt they had a right to be rude/offensive)...I still worry about the damage the supporters are doing/will do
Actually I said "I wish FHM all the best" & "I think the FHM system for Attributes is potentially more robust than that of EHM (and if all is working as intended significantly more robust)" & "I'm glad you like it/are happy" & "I've posted more about problems/issues in EHM than anyone" & "I've bought every version of FHM at full price. I also bought OOTP twice to support the company/support FHM development (though I've never played OOTP/have no interest in baseball)"
Your example of Kevin Roy and how "he has essentially far outstripped his in-game potential to become a 4.5* superstar along the lines of Pat Kane" & "This is repeated across our league with 4 or 5 players - Mark Friedman, Taylor Cammarata, Connor Hurley - who have all gone on to outstrip their potential and become legitimate superstars across the course of 3 seasons"
If you haven't, you might want to confirm with Sebastian/Jeff that this is what they want (Kane's a #1 overall pick who's a PPG player and won multiple awards...the last similar player IRL that even came close would be Jamie Benn in 2007, then maybe Zetterberg in 1999 and Datsyuk in 1998 - do Sebastian/Jeff want it to be happening 4-5 times over 3 years where essentially unknowns become superstars? seems like that's happening a lot more than IRL...but maybe it's intended? I like the idea, but I wouldn't want 4-5 extra superstars created every 3 years when IRL it seems to occur less than that over a decade or more)
Also, when FHM was first in development/first came out I recall Jeff saying that surprises like Zetterberg/Datsyuk don't really happen anymore...
I've been using TBL rosters for years now. There is nothing I appreciate more than the dedicated work of roster builders.
The problem for me is that the game engine doesn't do enough with that fresh database to keep the gameplay fresh over multiple saves. EHM requires a fresh database to keep its shelf life, in other words. My enthusiasm for playing EHM is at its peak when a new database is released, but it wanes steadily over the year between releases until I stop playing altogether.
Actually I did, you just didn't look at it...I did check just now, and yes Attributes in EHM can still grow/decrease when CA/PA match (so not my opinion, fact); you have no idea what you're talking about regarding EHM developmentYet you have provided no proof that development still occurs when Current Ability is reached. It's your opinion - and an opinion which flies in the face of eatablished wisdom about EHM player development, as well as information which is readily available online about how development works in SI games.
I have been heavily involved in EHM for 6 years, never heard of you; your "established wisdom" is actually complete ignorancewhich flies in the face of eatablished wisdom about EHM player development, as well as information which is readily available online about how development works in SI games.
But that's not what Riz said to me, and since he's the actual developer, I don't care what you say about EHM (nor should anyone else)Since it was bought out by SI EHM has used this same player development model of PA/CA. It was heavily updated for the re-release to stop people being able to look for the next 6'9" guy out of Trencin and thus automatically draft the next Big Z. In doing so they inevitably borrowed heavily from the FM model of player re-gens and development, because this was the obvious thing for them to do.
I find the direct contact with Riz works better (and both testing and Riz don't agree with your claims)As for not understanding how a game like FM could now provide the template for EHM... well, if you've never played FM, I'm not surprised you can't see the many and obvious similarities between the two games in pretty much every aspect.
Your lack of understanding is by your own choice, I said that my problem is the OOTP/FHM "supporters" and their attacking/offensive behaviour (and I was saying that long before you even knew FHM existed)For some reason you have chosen to widen this into a larger 'debate' on FHM, OOTP, me, Daximus and seemingly anyone who writes something positive about FHM2 in comparison to EHM, but I guess that's your prerogative.
Almost all the publicly available information on EHM comes from my testing or from Riz via meI like proof and data as much as the next man. It's more that your own testing, done on your own computer, to support your own opinion - which flies in the face of published information about player development in SI games - is hardly an empirically verifiable study. What about that don't you understand?
The two guys were last year, regarding FHM2 (maybe you can't understand the obvious, but the damage obviously connects to why every available site regarding FHM2 is dead, and the number of players is miniscule)talked about two guys on the blueline forum from two years ago as if they were somehow relevant.
I stand up for truth and against ignorance and lies (you only think I'm defending EHM because you're just a fanboy and have never actually looked at my testing/feedback regarding EHM)To be frank, you need to have more confidence in EHM than rush to its defence every time it's mentioned in the FHM forum and accuse guys like me of being something they're not.
Fine, I'll discontinue my support "for development" and when asked I'll recommend others do the sameAnd game ownership counts for nothing.
To clarify: superstars might have been too strong a description on my part
All 3 TBL databases last year had him as a -8 (130-160), which is from "below average fringe" to the start of "good" - I guess you saying "he turns into a beast" is just more of your exaggeration?For me the TBL roster from a year or so ago really highlights this. It's the one where Sean Day was still riding high on his exceptional status and no matter what happens, if you draft him in that update he turns into a beast.
As we all know, since then his stock has fallen considerably to the extent he was taken in the 3rd round this year.
I was actually quite happy with the idea that FHM was not from the OOTPD stable, as OOTP after 17 versions still has unfixed basic AI issues and nonworking features from past years and I was hopeful years ago that FHM wouldn't be like that
FHM is so far behind EHM it's barely more complete than the EHM freeware game, and if they're going to be like OOTP and never fix basic issues and always promote yearly features that likely won't actually work as intended for years if ever, I'll happily have nothing to do with FHM
I'm not saying anything, it's those that play/support OOTP as much as you that are saying it, as this thread shows http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boa...e-8-hotfix-version-17-10-67-available-12.htmlSay what you want about OOTP17's shortcomings, but it is a better and more immersive game by a country mile than either FHM or EHM, and the evolution of it in the past 10 years has been significant.
Actually it's not, as Riz never stopped working on EHM07 on his own time (it stuns me that you think a game as complicated as FM, with a staff of 100 and yearly development, can have any part just ported over)I'm guessing that current EHM is a fork from the newest FM codebase or something like that, rather than a development of old code
And as someone who actually does the editing/testing, it's significantly different (especially the Player Role system/player development & the fact that more-and-more of what was once hardcoded isn't anymore will allow for the "full editing" that so many EHM fans wanted)but as someone who doesn't dig into the guts of the game as a hobby and simply plays for enjoyment, the current EHM is not far distanced from its 10-year-old ancestor (and, in a couple of functional and quality traits, actually a step back).
That's great for you, useless for those that have no interest in baseball like myself (and there's as many people or more complaining on the OOTP site about the ongoing OOTP issues as there are OOTP fanboys defending OOTP; I'm not expressing my opinion on OOTP, I'm expressing what actual fans/purchasers of the game are saying and have been saying every year for years about OOTP).OOTP provides the best bang for my buck, as it doesn't really matter if the starting DB is 100% accurate or not.
My feelings are actually the same as yours, I too want to get full value for my money, and after close to $200 I've gotten no value (and am even told the financial support counts for nothing)I'm not a fanboy of any platform - I'm a consumer that wants to enjoy himself and get full value for my money.....I think we're already well aware of your lack of interest in FHM and its developers
I'm done with you
All 3 TBL databases last year had him as a -8 (130-160), which is from "below average fringe" to the start of "good" - I guess you saying "he turns into a beast" is just more of your exaggeration?
And he could have been given a -14 (or -15) and had an even greater chance of falling (which is a researcher issue, and has nothing to do with the game)
Again, your posted falsehoods and ignorance of things is astounding
Actually I did, you just didn't look at it...I did check just now, and yes Attributes in EHM can still grow/decrease when CA/PA match (so not my opinion, fact); you have no idea what you're talking about regarding EHM development
I have been heavily involved in EHM for 6 years, never heard of you; your "established wisdom" is actually complete ignorance
Actually it's not, as Riz never stopped working on EHM07 on his own time (it stuns me that you think a game as complicated as FM, with a staff of 100 and yearly development, can have any part just ported over)
Not sure why fans of OOTPD repeatedly think there's such experts on how game development occurs, and so willingly offer their view on how things work on other games & don't listen to their own developer (Sebastian) say it can't be done with OOTP/FHM
You think we're different on FHM, but by your own admission "I bought v1 and it was so terrible that I didn't even consider buying FHM2" so the only difference I see is I continued to support FHM development when you didn't (whatever you think about my feelings regarding FHM and the developers, I don't understand how you think your way was better)