FPHL New Jersey

[CarolinaThunderbird]

When you have so many easy marks, it's easy to keep the con going.

The more knuckle-dragging troglodyte "hockey fans" who want to see bad hockey fights show up, the bigger the FPHL gets. The problem is that these "fans" don't actually want to see good hockey. They want to see fights, and they conflate fighting, an element of the pro game, with the entire sport.

Is your entire personality just hating the FED? Are you OK?

I live in Winston-Salem and enjoy going to the games with my wife. Nobody goes to FED games and expects clean, high quality hockey. It is what it is, and it is still enjoyable for a lot of people in markets that have no other hockey around them. We have a VERY passionate fan base.

Thankfully, we’re only an hour and a half away from Raleigh and the Canes, but that is still something that can only be done on weekends with some planning. It’s also pretty cool to have the Charlotte Checkers of the AHL and hour down the road in Charlotte.

Still, a 10 minute drive and $15 dollars for a ticket still gives you a great value for what it is.

You’re also not giving the players enough credit. The Thunderbirds alone have 5 former CHL players on their roster, several SPHL players, and a guy that played in the ECHL (and put up points) just a year or two ago. Yes, the talent typically isn’t deap for most teams after the first couple of lines, but it isn’t beer league hockey. Is it a bit of a gong show? At times, but that can be fun too.

Nobody is forcing anyone to play in the league. Nobody is forcing anyone to support it. You constantly trashing it does nothing to add value to the conversation, it just shows what kind of miserable person you must be.

The next low minor league team to accurately count their attendance will be the first.

Similarly, the next municipally-operated arena to not screw a minor league team on game settlements will be the first.

The Thunderbirds accurately report attendance.

The Annex seats 3,150 for hockey and the last two home games were standing room only with over 3200 and 3300 fans. There wasn’t an empty seat in the arena.

You can check the Ticketmaster seating chart for tomorrow night’s game and see that there are only maybe 25 seats left. It will be another standing room only sellout.

The FPHL website says we average 2,792. If anything, that is lowballing it.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Is your entire personality just hating the FED? Are you OK?

I live in Winston-Salem and enjoy going to the games with my wife. Nobody goes to FED games and expects clean, high quality hockey. It is what it is, and it is still enjoyable for a lot of people in markets that have no other hockey around them. We have a VERY passionate fan base.

Thankfully, we’re only an hour and a half away from Raleigh and the Canes, but that is still something that can only be done on weekends with some planning. It’s also pretty cool to have the Charlotte Checkers of the AHL and hour down the road in Charlotte.

Still, a 10 minute drive and $15 dollars for a ticket still gives you a great value for what it is.

You’re also not giving the players enough credit. The Thunderbirds alone have 5 former CHL players on their roster, several SPHL players, and a guy that played in the ECHL (and put up points) just a year or two ago. Yes, the talent typically isn’t deap for most teams after the first couple of lines, but it isn’t beer league hockey. Is it a bit of a gong show? At times, but that can be fun too.

Nobody is forcing anyone to play in the league. Nobody is forcing anyone to support it. You constantly trashing it does nothing to add value to the conversation, it just shows what kind of miserable person you must be.

To be fair, he isn't bashing the league based on quality since they've made fairly noticeable improvements to it.

To be fair, he is bashing the people behind the league who have done incredibly sketchy and probably illegal things in the past, both recent and not recent, and have not been held accountable for it.

There is nothing wrong with having minor league hockey. There aren't a ton of markets that fit the mold of lower Single A hockey, but the Fed has a bunch that fit it. That being said, Crazy Ed rightfully points out every time they mess up very badly.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Is your entire personality just hating the FED? Are you OK?

I live in Winston-Salem and enjoy going to the games with my wife. Nobody goes to FED games and expects clean, high quality hockey. It is what it is, and it is still enjoyable for a lot of people in markets that have no other hockey around them. We have a VERY passionate fan base.

Thankfully, we’re only an hour and a half away from Raleigh and the Canes, but that is still something that can only be done on weekends with some planning. It’s also pretty cool to have the Charlotte Checkers of the AHL and hour down the road in Charlotte.

Still, a 10 minute drive and $15 dollars for a ticket still gives you a great value for what it is.

You’re also not giving the players enough credit. The Thunderbirds alone have 5 former CHL players on their roster, several SPHL players, and a guy that played in the ECHL (and put up points) just a year or two ago. Yes, the talent typically isn’t deap for most teams after the first couple of lines, but it isn’t beer league hockey. Is it a bit of a gong show? At times, but that can be fun too.

Nobody is forcing anyone to play in the league. Nobody is forcing anyone to support it. You constantly trashing it does nothing to add value to the conversation, it just shows what kind of miserable person you must be.

The Thunderbirds accurately report attendance.

The Annex seats 3,150 for hockey and the last two home games were standing room only with over 3200 and 3300 fans. There wasn’t an empty seat in the arena.

You can check the Ticketmaster seating chart for tomorrow night’s game and see that there are only maybe 25 seats left. It will be another standing room only sellout.

The FPHL website says we average 2,792. If anything, that is lowballing it.

My entire personality, and career in minor league hockey, baseball, and other businesses, is about doing things the right way and treating employees the right way, even if it costs more money and eats at the bottom line a bit. I'd rather have someone say, "Hey, Ed could have really done X and screwed me and maybe saved some money, but he didn't. He didn't skimp. He treated us well and I worked my ass off for him because of the way he treated me."

You know those attendance numbers include comped tickets, right? In the business, that's called "tickets distributed" or "tickets out" and generally has a wide variance from the actual paid attendance, which is the number of tickets sold directly to fans. That variance is fantastically important, because, say the Dunderbirds announce 3,200, but only 2,100 tickets to that "sellout" were actually paid for - those 1,100 freebies cost the team money, especially in a ticketmaster building where the team pays a fee on every single ticket that gets printed.

On top of that, there are several business studies that people who come to games on comped tickets spend significantly less money on concessions and merchandise than paying attendees - so not only is the team paying the ticket fees for the comped tickets they're handing out, they're probably not bringing in any (or very little) concession or merch revenue from those people. And if you think 33% is way too many comped tickets, you're not wrong... but a lot of teams whose attendance numbers make them appear successful do things like that, especially in lower leagues where owners don't have any sense of business ethics.

Has the FPHL play improved? Sure, but then you have clownshow teams like Delaware and Mississippi. Not everywhere is Carolina and Columbus. The officiating is generally better than it has been. But there's still a massive talent gap top to bottom on every team, not to mention from the top teams to the bottom.

And while I agree that gongshows can be fun, the problem is that these clowns - Barry "Made My Fortune Off Chicago's Gun Violence" Soskin, Don "The Con" Kirnan, et al. - will eventually poison the well in these markets when their act wears thin. And then where will all these hockey fans be in the winter? Whining about how they don't have a team anymore because the clowns that ran their team scooped up their money in the first couple years and then ran the organization into the ground before skipping town.

Winston-Salem was out of hockey for how long after McBob stiffed the Annex and the fans? Maybe this time will be different, but when you think about how often ownership turns over, especially in the Fed, what do you think will happen when the current owner sells? What do you think will happen when he tries to juice the lemon harder and cuts sales and marketing staff? Tickets and sponsorships don't sell themselves, especially to glorified beer league hockey.

 

[PCSPounder]

My entire personality, and career in minor league hockey, baseball, and other businesses, is about doing things the right way and treating employees the right way, even if it costs more money and eats at the bottom line a bit. I'd rather have someone say, "Hey, Ed could have really done X and screwed me and maybe saved some money, but he didn't. He didn't skimp. He treated us well and I worked my ass off for him because of the way he treated me."

You know those numbers include comped tickets, right? In the business, that's called "tickets distributed" or "tickets out" and generally has a wide variance from the actual paid attendance, which is the number of tickets sold directly to fans.

Has the FPHL play improved? Sure, but then you have clownshow teams like Delaware and Mississippi. Not everywhere is Carolina and Columbus. The officiating is generally better than it has been. But there's still a massive talent gap top to bottom on every team, not to mention from the top teams to the bottom.

And while I agree that gongshows can be fun, the problem is that these clowns - Barry "Made a Fortune off Chicago's Gun Violence" Soskin, Don "The Con" Kirnan, et al. - will eventually poison the well in these markets when their act wears thin. And then where will all these "hockey fans" be in the winter? Whining about how they don't have a team anymore because the cons that ran their team scooped up their money in the first couple years and then ran the organization into the ground before skipping town.

Winston-Salem was out of hockey for how long after McBob stiffed the Annex and the fans? Maybe this time will be different, but when you think about how often ownership turns over, especially in the Fed, what do you think will happen when the current owner sells? What do you think will happen when he tries to juice the lemon harder and cuts sales and marketing staff? Tickets and sponsorships don't sell themselves, especially to glorified beer league hockey.

On one hand, Eddie is right about so much of this. Treat your employees well.

The only wrench I’ll throw in here is that a couple D-1 collegiate conferences now operate virtually. Maybe there’s a server facility and a boardroom in an office in Denver or somesuch. The Pac-12 has gone there after the previous commissioner tried to make a big splash on expensive San Francisco office space and otherwise strutted around with his expense account like he was a Vice President of the IOC or FIFA. So I’m just trying to realign a couple expectations here.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

On one hand, Eddie is right about so much of this. Treat your employees well.

The only wrench I’ll throw in here is that a couple D-1 collegiate conferences now operate virtually. Maybe there’s a server facility and a boardroom in an office in Denver or somesuch. The Pac-12 has gone there after the previous commissioner tried to make a big splash on expensive San Francisco office space and otherwise strutted around with his expense account like he was a Vice President of the IOC or FIFA. So I’m just trying to realign a couple expectations here.

I mean, sure. You have to operate with some sense of financial responsibility, and for college and minor league sports, that doesn't include astronomically expensive office space.

But you'd think Don and the FPHL could at least afford a PO Box!

 

[sabremike]

The idea of a team in Jersey is a good idea in theory as it would be a team within a modest geographical footprint with several others (a must at this level financially to reduce travel cost). Unfortunately I just don't see anywhere where it could be viable. Atlantic City and Trenton have buildings but there's no chance that you would draw more than the couple of hundred they were drawing at the end in the ECHL. The Outlaws couldn't make a go of it and the late lamented NEHL Rockhoppers would draw a few dozen fans at the old Devils practice rink. Don't think it has any chance of working.

 

[JMCx4]

I mean, sure. You have to operate with some sense of financial responsibility, and for college and minor league sports, that doesn't include astronomically expensive office space.

But you'd think Don and the FPHL could at least afford a PO Box!

On further review of this "last known address" thing in Binghamton, I find myself disappointed that the public records didn't show the property owner as "Director of Security" of the League. You can never be too safe in minor pro hockey these days.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

On further review of this "last known address" thing in Binghamton, I find myself disappointed that the public records didn't show the property owner as "Director of Security" of the League. You can never be too safe in minor pro hockey these days.

You never know, maybe there'll be an FPHL team next year with a Trust Fund Kid owner who can fund such a position.

 

[Dingo44]

Is your entire personality just hating the FED? Are you OK?

I live in Winston-Salem and enjoy going to the games with my wife. Nobody goes to FED games and expects clean, high quality hockey. It is what it is, and it is still enjoyable for a lot of people in markets that have no other hockey around them. We have a VERY passionate fan base.

Thankfully, we’re only an hour and a half away from Raleigh and the Canes, but that is still something that can only be done on weekends with some planning. It’s also pretty cool to have the Charlotte Checkers of the AHL and hour down the road in Charlotte.

Still, a 10 minute drive and $15 dollars for a ticket still gives you a great value for what it is.

You’re also not giving the players enough credit. The Thunderbirds alone have 5 former CHL players on their roster, several SPHL players, and a guy that played in the ECHL (and put up points) just a year or two ago. Yes, the talent typically isn’t deap for most teams after the first couple of lines, but it isn’t beer league hockey. Is it a bit of a gong show? At times, but that can be fun too.

Nobody is forcing anyone to play in the league. Nobody is forcing anyone to support it. You constantly trashing it does nothing to add value to the conversation, it just shows what kind of miserable person you must be.

The Thunderbirds accurately report attendance.

The Annex seats 3,150 for hockey and the last two home games were standing room only with over 3200 and 3300 fans. There wasn’t an empty seat in the arena.

You can check the Ticketmaster seating chart for tomorrow night’s game and see that there are only maybe 25 seats left. It will be another standing room only sellout.

The FPHL website says we average 2,792. If anything, that is lowballing it.

100%.

Drive from Greensboro to see the Thunderbirds often and my wife and I have also caught Fed games in Port Huron, St. Clair Shores, Battle Creek, and this year in Fraser, MI (Motor City Rockers). We LOVE the Fed and I've been to NHL games in 14 different arenas. No one has any allusions to what it is, but for what it provides it's a blast. Maybe it makes people feel better to tear it down but it shouldn't.

 

[Ratitude]

100%.

Drive from Greensboro to see the Thunderbirds often and my wife and I have also caught Fed games in Port Huron, St. Clair Shores, Battle Creek, and this year in Fraser, MI (Motor City Rockers). We LOVE the Fed and I've been to NHL games in 14 different arenas. No one has any allusions to what it is, but for what it provides it's a blast. Maybe it makes people feel better to tear it down but it shouldn't.

Exactly, real fans know what the product is. They know that a hometown team at $10 to $15 is a reasonable deal. Its entertainment, it's really that simple. If you love the game you will appreciate it all all levels and especially the basic simplicity of the game played at the SPHL or FHL level. As someone from the Albany area we have DI and ECHL nearby but have taken to games down in Binghamton and Danbury and enjoyed them equally

 

[battra]

I'm sorry.

What was wrong with the house?

It's smaller than mine...but it's also a lot cheaper.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I'm sorry.

What was wrong with the house?

It's smaller than mine...but it's also a lot cheaper.

What is wrong with the house...It's the league office...

We weren't making fun of it because it wouldn't medal in the Broome County Garden Festival...

 

[JMCx4]

I'm sorry.

What was wrong with the house?

It's smaller than mine...but it's also a lot cheaper.

Bragging about your high-priced residential real estate is discouraged in this thread. Please read the ENTIRE narrative before you Reply next time. Thank you for your cooperation. -- The Hockey Real Estate Management & Economic Development Co.-LLC

 

[JMCx4]

Eddie gave me a Like? I can now die a happy man!

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Eddie gave me a Like? I can now die a happy man!

On occasion, your snark trolling is funny.

What is wrong with the house...It's the league office...

Also, it's in Binghamton.

 

[battra]

I dunno if HIGH PRICED is accurate.... I mean, I live in St. Louis City...both my houses are in the city...

Bragging about your high-priced residential real estate is discouraged in this thread. Please read the ENTIRE narrative before you Reply next time. Thank you for your cooperation. -- The Hockey Real Estate Management & Economic Development Co.-LLC

What is wrong with the house...It's the league office...

We weren't making fun of it because it wouldn't medal in the Broome County Garden Festival...

Welp.

I may have been drinking.

 

[Captain Crash]

Exactly, real fans know what the product is. They know that a hometown team at $10 to $15 is a reasonable deal. Its entertainment, it's really that simple. If you love the game you will appreciate it all all levels and especially the basic simplicity of the game played at the SPHL or FHL level. As someone from the Albany area we have DI and ECHL nearby but have taken to games down in Binghamton and Danbury and enjoyed them equally

Listen, no one here opposes the Fed because of the quality of play. I've gone to Fed games and would go again. I've enjoyed college club games, tier 3 junior, junior C, etc. I would love a stable low A league or two.

The problem with the Fed is that it they burn markets. Not the players, but the owners. Their shady business practices end up screwing over rink owners, small businesses, and municipalities when they just stop paying bills, fold without notice, or reorganize under new LLCs. While it's awesome that markets like Winston-Salem are doing well, there's others that have been poisoned, and not only are innocent people stuck with the bills, those markets are now likely to roll up the welcome mats the next time a minor or junior league comes knocking, even if they're legitimate and well-intentioned.

In short, most of us who dislike the FHL do so because we WANT these markets to succeed and you can keep having a fun night of affordable entertainment for seasons to come.

 

[CarolinaThunderbird]

Listen, no one here opposes the Fed because of the quality of play. I've gone to Fed games and would go again. I've enjoyed college club games, tier 3 junior, junior C, etc. I would love a stable low A league or two.

The problem with the Fed is that it they burn markets. Not the players, but the owners. Their shady business practices end up screwing over rink owners, small businesses, and municipalities when they just stop paying bills, fold without notice, or reorganize under new LLCs. While it's awesome that markets like Winston-Salem are doing well, there's others that have been poisoned, and not only are innocent people stuck with the bills, those markets are now likely to roll up the welcome mats the next time a minor or junior league comes knocking, even if they're legitimate and well-intentioned.

In short, most of us who dislike the FHL do so because we WANT these markets to succeed and you can keep having a fun night of affordable entertainment for seasons to come.

Eddie mentioned paid attendance being flubbed in minor pro hockey. If his numbers are correct, 33% being free tickets, that would mean Carolina is still selling 2k paid tickets per game. I’ve read that a healthy FPHL needs to average 1k paid fans per game. We would be doubling that.

As for merch and food/drinks, if you came to the Annex for a game, you would see that isn’t a problem in Winston-Salem. Lots of jerseys/shirts/cowbells etc. The team store is always packed, and we are always well lubricated during games, if you know what I mean. You should see the parking lot an hour or so before the game…big tailgating scene.

As for owners ditching town? Co-owner Carry Ross recently relocated permanently to Winston from Chicago. I don’t think he would do that if he wasn’t planning on keeping the team around. He is VERY involved in the local community already. I think it is also worth mentioning that the Fed has been around for what, over a decade now? It isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

I think what could improve the league the most would be to get rid of filler teams like Delaware and teams that can’t attract at least 1,500 fans per game. I was hoping Motor City would work out, but that market seems like a flop. Ideally I would like to see an 8 team league. I think more than that really dilutes the talent. Perhaps NJ could be a good FED market?

Eddie also called FPHL fans knuckle draggers. If that’s how he “really” feels, his beef isn’t just with the league and owners.

I know I’m rambling, but one last thing, for as much as I have enjoyed the FED, I would love to have at least an SPHL franchise in town. The only thing preventing this is our facilities. The Annex is not capable in its current state. Since the city no longer owns the LJVM Coliseum (Wake Forest University now owns it) I would love for us to build a small 5-8K seat arena downtown. We could easily attract over 5k a game for ECHL or SPHL hockey if we had a facility downtown. We were recently ranked one of the best minor league market in America, and averaged 4.5k a game last season for Low A baseball. Sports Business Journal names Winston-Salem as ninth-best Minor League Market

 

[sabremike]

Eddie mentioned paid attendance being flubbed in minor pro hockey. If his numbers are correct, 33% being free tickets, that would mean Carolina is still selling 2k paid tickets per game. I’ve read that a healthy FPHL needs to average 1k paid fans per game. We would be doubling that.

As for merch and food/drinks, if you came to the Annex for a game, you would see that isn’t a problem in Winston-Salem. Lots of jerseys/shirts/cowbells etc. The team store is always packed, and we are always well lubricated during games, if you know what I mean. You should see the parking lot an hour or so before the game…big tailgating scene.

As for owners ditching town? Co-owner Carry Ross recently relocated permanently to Winston from Chicago. I don’t think he would do that if he wasn’t planning on keeping the team around. He is VERY involved in the local community already. I think it is also worth mentioning that the Fed has been around for what, over a decade now? It isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

I think what could improve the league the most would be to get rid of filler teams like Delaware and teams that can’t attract at least 1,500 fans per game. I was hoping Motor City would work out, but that market seems like a flop. Ideally I would like to see an 8 team league. I think more than that really dilutes the talent. Perhaps NJ could be a good FED market?

Eddie also called FPHL fans knuckle draggers. If that’s how he “really” feels, his beef isn’t just with the league and owners.

I know I’m rambling, but one last thing, for as much as I have enjoyed the FED, I would love to have at least an SPHL franchise in town. The only thing preventing this is our facilities. The Annex is not capable in its current state. Since the city no longer owns the LJVM Coliseum (Wake Forest University now owns it) I would love for us to build a small 5-8K seat arena downtown. We could easily attract over 5k a game for ECHL or SPHL hockey if we had a facility downtown. We were recently ranked one of the best minor league market in America, and averaged 4.5k a game last season for Low A baseball. Sports Business Journal names Winston-Salem as ninth-best Minor League Market

There's a reason the site has an ignore feature. There's a reason why I have only ever used that feature once and it was one of the best decisions I have ever made.

 

[GindyDraws]

There's a reason the site has an ignore feature. There's a reason why I have only ever used that feature once and it was one of the best decisions I have ever made.

Did it involve a guy who won't shut up about pirates who used to hang out in Portland?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Did it involve a guy who won't shut up about pirates who used to hang out in Portland?

who's controlling the thread. JD....

SINCE WHEN is Portland a Federal league market......

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Eddie also called FPHL fans knuckle draggers. If that’s how he “really” feels, his beef isn’t just with the league and owners.

A lot of these "fans" are people that show up to see fights and/or brawls. If that's the only reason you're showing up to the game, you ARE a knuckle dragging troglodyte and you ARE NOT a hockey fan. Fighting is an element of the pro game. It is not the entirety of the sport like so many fans in the low minors seem to think.

 

[CarolinaThunderbird]

A lot of these "fans" are people that show up to see fights and/or brawls. If that's the only reason you're showing up to the game, you ARE a knuckle dragging troglodyte and you ARE NOT a hockey fan. Fighting is an element of the pro game. It is not the entirety of the sport like so many fans in the low minors seem to think.

I would agree with that.

I don’t think that’s the majority of FPHL fans, though. I can’t speak for other fan bases though.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

I would agree with that.

I don’t think that’s the majority of FPHL fans, though. I can’t speak for other fan bases though.

It's pretty simple. Just ask them, "If fighting were gone, would you still come?" If they say no, they're not real fans.

 

[CarolinaThunderbird]

It's pretty simple. Just ask them, "If fighting were gone, would you still come?" If they say no, they're not real fans.

I don’t think that is entirely fair.

It helps people gain interest. Perfect example? My wife. She was all about the fighting until this season. She has learned the rules of the game and now has an appreciation for the sport. She even watches Canes games with me on TV now lol. She isn’t just looking for fights now.