Forsberg Versus Fedorov!

danincanada

Registered User
Feb 11, 2008
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History of my posts shows that I am very critical of certain Canadiens icons. Lafleur, Geoffrion in particular. Likewise, coaches - Irvin Sr, and management - see my posts about Sam Pollock manipulating junior hockey, the Ronald Corey era, etc. I also recognize that Harvey was the original when it comes to headmanning the puck constantly.

As for the avatar image. Add yourself to the list of the multitudes who have not made the connection. Only two have.:laugh:

So what? I'm critical of Red Wings players, too, and just ask me about current Red Wings management decisions and I could go on forever on how they're spiraling towards a long rebuild and they don't even seem to know it. You're still a Habs fan and I'm still a Wings fan and neither of us are on here hurling criticism towards our favourite players so stop pretending we don't both have our own biases.

The avatar image is pretty small so if there is some surprise I'm missing please feel free to share.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
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Let's get past talking about each other's biases.


It's probably one of these rare cases where the player who is probably underrated offensively but overrated defensively (Forsberg) has the upper hand on the player who is probably overrated offensively but underrated defensively (Fedorov).

That's probably fair after 1996, as he was essentially a 70-point player without any noticeable improvement to the team defensively from what he had offered previously. For Yzerman and Forsberg, you can see the trade-off (Yzerman's offense drops along with increased defensive contributions, while Forsberg's offense increases along with the relief from previous defensive responsibilities). But Fedorov's dip into ~70 point seasons didn't see an improvement into Bobby Clarke GA numbers or anything. If it had, then I could see this being close.

Dead Puck Era
Fedorov: 556 GP, 219-271-490, +98
Forsberg: 451 GP, 171-404-575, +164

I guess I'm more in-line with silkyjohnson50. And if there weren't career parallels like being European Centers on Western Conference rivals, I'm not sure it's a comparison that would ever come up, given the offensive disparity - and certainly not one to analyze the value of one player who was tasked to limit opposition offense and another who was rarely scored on because the other team was focused on him (Wayne Gretzky defense).

To their credit, both had a full set of tools in the toolbox. Fedorov's coaches had him resorting to a variety of them more often.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Defensive Hockey

So what? I'm critical of Red Wings players, too, and just ask me about current Red Wings management decisions and I could go on forever on how they're spiraling towards a long rebuild and they don't even seem to know it. You're still a Habs fan and I'm still a Wings fan and neither of us are on here hurling criticism towards our favourite players so stop pretending we don't both have our own biases.

The avatar image is pretty small so if there is some surprise I'm missing please feel free to share.

My only constant bias is defensive hockey. Leaf dynasties, early Ottawa dynasties, Canadiens dynasties.
 

psycat

Registered User
Oct 25, 2016
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Forsberg AINEC. Fedorov is the most overrated non-candian on these boards and that's also AINEC.

(Forsberg is also kinda overrated but nowhere close to Fedorov)
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Fedorov is the most overrated non-candian on these boards and that's also AINEC.

Fedorov in his prime was such an absolute beaut. Watch that game from early December 1995 when he chased Patrick Roy out of the Montreal Forum for good....


Who's overrated or not depends on who's really rating. I hear all the time here on the boards that Forsberg & Fedorov are so overrated. By whom exactly?

Fedorov weren't a loud or noisy player, but he sure was effective.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
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Fedorov in his prime was such an absolute beaut. Watch that game from early December 1995 when he chased Patrick Roy out of the Montreal Forum for good....


Who's overrated or not depends on who's really rating. I hear all the time here on the boards that Forsberg & Fedorov are so overrated. By whom exactly?

Fedorov weren't a loud or noisy player, but he sure was effective.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with this.


There's nothing overrated about PEAK Fedorov.

The guy won the Hart and Selke AND finished second in points.


From '94-'96, he was world class. Very rarely does a player that good come along.


If he is overrated, it must be by those who think he remained THAT player during the dead puck era. He didn't.

He became more of a 70 point guy with great defense, as has been mentioned. He was still a force and a difference-maker, though.

It's because of his superior durability, the fact that he was a better goal scorer and the fact that he played more of a classic "shut down" role than Forsberg, who basically received more Kane-esque usage, that Fedorov makes this a worthwhile comparison.

I don't know how Forsberg can be overrated unless some here are calling him a top 30-40 player of all-time (and even then, he COULD have been that with better health for sure).

With players like Bure, Kariya, Lindros, Forsberg etc (guys who had incredible skill and potential but were injury-prone), sometimes people don't realize how much injuries held these players back.


Although in Forsberg's case, he was still easily a top five player in the League for years.
 

Cursed Lemon

Registered Bruiser
Nov 10, 2011
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Fedorov was decently better defensively than Forsberg, who was decently offensively better than Fedorov. Both players were roughly equal in being playoff monsters.

The difference would seem to lie in how long they maintained the level of play that they are known/heralded for, and I think that goes to Forsberg. Even if he was injured often, he was still "Forsberg" for longer than Fedorov was "Fedorov", at least in the regular season. Forsberg was one of the best players in the league for arguably ten straight seasons - Fedorov was in his prime element for perhaps three?
 

Hobnobs

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Nov 29, 2011
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Fedorov was decently better defensively than Forsberg, who was decently offensively better than Fedorov. Both players were roughly equal in being playoff monsters.

The difference would seem to lie in how long they maintained the level of play that they are known/heralded for, and I think that goes to Forsberg. Even if he was injured often, he was still "Forsberg" for longer than Fedorov was "Fedorov", at least in the regular season. Forsberg was one of the best players in the league for arguably ten straight seasons - Fedorov was in his prime element for perhaps three?

Id say its between Fedorovs 5 seasons of prime vs Forsbergs 7.
 

GlitchMarner

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Fedorov was decently better defensively than Forsberg, who was decently offensively better than Fedorov. Both players were roughly equal in being playoff monsters.

The difference would seem to lie in how long they maintained the level of play that they are known/heralded for, and I think that goes to Forsberg. Even if he was injured often, he was still "Forsberg" for longer than Fedorov was "Fedorov", at least in the regular season. Forsberg was one of the best players in the league for arguably ten straight seasons - Fedorov was in his prime element for perhaps three?

There's a strange valley in Fedorov's career from '96-'97 to '98-99 during which his offensive production is fairly significantly lower than it had better prior and considerably lower than it would be again from '99-'00 to '02-'03.

I think it may have gone largely unnoticed at the time because it coincides with the Red Wings' first two Stanley Cup wins of the Yzerman/Fedorov era and because Fedorov still played a prominent role in those two Cup victories.

However, Fedorov went from having scored 277 points in 202 (1.37 points per game) games in a span of three seasons to scoring 143 points in 172 games in three seasons (0.83).

That's a decrease of 0.54 points-per-game (more than a half point per game)!

This wasn't entirely due to the onset of the dead puck era, either. Even if we compare his adjusted point totals from those his two highest-scoring seasons ('94 and '96) to that latter block of three consecutive seasons, the difference is quite significant:
He goes from 109 + 102 (211) adjusted points in 160 games (1.32 points-per-game) to 65 + 20 (in 21 games) + 72 (157) adjusted points in 172 games (0.91 points per game).

In terms of adjusted points per game, Fedorov suffers a 0.41 points-per-game decrease between his 1994 and 1996 seasons and his '97, '98 and '99 seasons.

During this period, he also only finishes ninth in award voting once (he placed ninth in Selke voting in '97) whereas he had previously won the Selke and placed fifth in Hart voting in '96, had placed fourth in Selke voting in '95, had won the Hart and Selke in '94, had finished fourth in Selke voting in '93 and had been the Selke runner-up in '92.

Fedorov bounced back from this odd lull in his career by averaging 0.93 or 1.03 adjusted points-per-game from '99-'00 to '02-'03. He also again received Selke votes again consistently during this period, placing 12th, 8th, 8th and 19th in Selke voting. Additionally, he placed ninth and 19th in Hart voting during this phase of his career.


Overall, Fedorov had an incredibly elite couple of seasons (1994 and 1996), and if we include the lockout-shortened '95 season, we can say he was a world class player for three seasons.

Additionally, he had a string of four consecutive seasons where he performed at the level of an elite two-way forward from 00 to '03. However, during this latter stretch, he still wasn't quite at his peak form.

In between these two stretches, however, he wasn't quite elite - merely very good. He wasn't quite a top performer offensively or defensively. Although in the post-season, Fedorov was able to raise it up a notch and help his team win two Stanley Cups (he had 20 points in 20 playoff games in '97 and 20 points in 22 playoff games including 10 goals in '98), thus compensating for this drop-off in his regular season performance.

Peter Forsberg, conversely, was more consistently elite - when not injured - from 1996 to 2004. He racked up 691 points (or 747 adjusted points) in 533 games during this period of time, an average of 1.30 points-per-game or 1.40 adjusted points-per-game!

Additionally, he twice led the NHL in playoff points between 1996 and 2004 despite not even getting as far as the final round.
 
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GlitchMarner

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Following analysis, I stick by what I originally said:

Peak: Fedorov

Prime: Forsberg

Career: Fedorov

Playoffs: Forsberg


Of course, the period from 1996-2004 comprised the majority of Forsberg's career.

Aside from that stretch, he had a strong rookie season (he won the Calder after recording 50 points in 47 games) in 1995 and then he had 75 points in 60 games in '06, 55 points in 57 games in '07 and 14 points in nine games in '08.

Fedorov came second in Calder voting in his rookie season and his first three seasons were similar to the 2000-2003 portion of his career (with his second and third seasons being similar to Forsberg's last two seasons - better defensively, not too far off offensively).

We can line their careers up like this:

The rookie season for each.

Fedorov's second and third season's versus Forsberg's '06 and '07 seasons.

So far, it's virtually a tie. I might give a slight edge to Fedorov here.

'93-'94 to '03 Fedorov (ten seasons) versus '96-'04 Forsberg (eight seasons - Forsberg missed the entire 2001-2002 season season).
In terms of season-by-season dominance, Forsberg is well ahead here from seasons four to eight; however, Fedorov's seven non peak seasons from '93 to '03 are still very strong overall and he has two more seasons during this span than Forsberg.

Then in 2003-2004, Fedorov had a disappointing season, with only 65 points. Forsberg played at a higher level but was limited to just 39 games (he still put up 55 points).
Fedorov has a further longevity advantage, though his last few seasons ('06 to '09) don't add a ton of value to his career.

Overall, career-wise, I think it's a very close call. You can take Forsberg's shorter career - which gives you a very high concentration of quality - or Fedorov's longer career which is more diluted but still reasonably dense in terms of quality.

Fedorov's best three season peak compares decently well to Forsberg's best three year period.

Clearly, though, Forsberg had more seasons that can be considered "prime" seasons.
 
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Merya

Jokerit & Finland; anti-theist
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There's a strange valley in Fedorov's career from '96-'97 to '98-99 during which his offensive production is fairly significantly lower

Those are the Anna Kournikova years! She switched to bure in 99, and Pavel only had one great year after that. She's a vampire i tell you! :D
 

The Panther

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Those are the Anna Kournikova years! She switched to bure in 99, and Pavel only had one great year after that. She's a vampire i tell you! :D
You're probably right. Remember when Ovechkin's girlfriend came to visit him from Russia, and he suddenly stopped scoring for, like, two weeks? Need to save the energy.
 

The Panther

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I'm not really getting how anyone could say Fedorov had a higher peak...?

Every season between 1995-96 and 2005-06 (in Philly) -- with the exception of 1999-2000 when he missed half the season to injury -- Forsberg was scoring at a 100+ point pace. I mean, every year for 10 years in a row he was a 100+ point-scoring level. And this is with basically every one of those years in the dead-puck era.

Despite having 4 or 5 more seasons than Forsberg in the higher-scoring period, Fedorov did this twice only.

In the playoffs, I'm not seeing how Fedorov has any edge, either. He has a lower PPG than Forsberg (again, despite 4 more playoffs in the higher-scoring era), and a lower plus/minus (despite playing more games). Even if you remove his old-man-in-Washington numbers, he's still behind Forsberg. Then, Forsberg led the playoffs in scoring twice -- without even appearing in the Finals (!) -- and Fedorov once.

It's a slam-dunk for Forsberg. I mean, I can see the argument that Fedorov had the better overall career when you factor in longevity and three Stanley Cups (compared to two), but it's not like Fedorov was a world-beater from about 2003 to 2009.
 
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Hobnobs

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I'm not really getting how anyone could say Fedorov had a higher peak...?

Every season between 1995-96 and 2005-06 (in Philly) -- with the exception of 1999-2000 when he missed half the season to injury -- Forsberg was scoring at a 100+ point pace. I mean, every year for 10 years in a row he was a 100+ point-scoring level. And this is with basically every one of those years in the dead-puck era.

Despite having 4 or 5 more seasons than Forsberg in the higher-scoring period, Fedorov did this twice only.

In the playoffs, I'm not seeing how Fedorov has any edge, either. He has a lower PPG than Forsberg (again, despite 4 more playoffs in the higher-scoring era), and a lower plus/minus (despite playing more games). Even if you remove his old-man-in-Washington numbers, he's still behind Forsberg. Then, Forsberg led the playoffs in scoring twice -- without even appearing in the Finals (!) -- and Fedorov once.

It's a slam-dunk for Forsberg. I mean, I can see the argument that Fedorov had the better overall career when you factor in longevity and three Stanley Cups (compared to two), but it's not like Fedorov was a world-beater from about 2003 to 2009.

Fedorov led the playoffs in assists WITHOUT REACHING THE FINALS!!! :amazed:

On a serious note. You make it sound like Forsberg was lightyears ahead of Fedorov in the playoffs. He was slightly better at point producing and Fedorov was better at defense.

What you are agruing for right now is that basically Forsberg was better than Beliveau in the playoffs because Beliveau only led his team once in points in the playoffs and Forsberg did it twice WITHOUT REACHING THE FINALS!!!

Its a non sequitur
 

MadLuke

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I'm not really getting how anyone could say Fedorov had a higher peak...?

That sound like someone saying Fedorov 93-94 was a better season than any of Forsberg season (that sound reasonable), they are not saying that he had an higher prime.
 

The Panther

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That sound like someone saying Fedorov 93-94 was a better season than any of Forsberg season (that sound reasonable), they are not saying that he had an higher prime.
I see, perhaps you are right. (I personally don't consider one season a "peak", as one season alone does not impress me in terms of evaluating any player. I think of "peak" as about three seasons in a row, on average, though it obviously varies.)

The thing is -- even if we look at one season -- was Fedorov's 1993-94 actually in any way better than, say, Forsberg's 2002-03?

Compare:

1993-94 Fedorov
2nd scoring
4th PPG
+48 (82 games)
+71 = actually on-ice goal differential

2002-03 Forsberg
1st scoring
1st PPG
+52 (75 games)
+96 = actual on-ice goal differential


I mean, if 1993-94 is the main point in Fedorov's having a better peak, it's a sketchy point at best...
 

silkyjohnson50

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In Fedorov's defense, the sole player who outscored him was Gretzky himself and the guys with the better p/g were Gretzky, Lemieux, and Lindros.

Forsberg didn't have to deal with that type of competition in 02-03, with all due respect to Naslund and a younger Thornton.

To me, peak Fedorov and Forsberg is a coin flip. I don't think it's criminal to lean towards one player or the other in that circumstance.

The biggest difference between the two players in my mind is that Forsberg played near that elite level for a much more sustained period of time.
 

TheGoldenJet

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Those are the Anna Kournikova years! She switched to bure in 99, and Pavel only had one great year after that. She's a vampire i tell you! :D

Wasn't just Kournikova in 98 and the DUI stuff in 99, Fedorov had his contract holdout in 97/98 and that's pretty much what ended his prime, at just 27 years old. He could have another Selke or Conn Smythe that season if he hadn't missed out the majority of that season. When he came back late in that season he was very rusty and not the same player.

1997 was a funny year. He played a large chunk of the season as a defenceman, which lowered his regular season numbers. He then went PPG in the playoffs (the only Red Wing who did) despite starting the playoffs as a full-time defenceman and getting no points in the first 4 games. Many argue he deserved the Conn Smythe trophy for his play as a forward and as a D in that Cup run, so clearly was still an absolutely elite player at that point in time. This is also supported by the fact that he led the Russian NT in scoring over Mogilny/Zhamnov/Larionov at the World Cup earlier that season.
 
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TheGoldenJet

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I see, perhaps you are right. (I personally don't consider one season a "peak", as one season alone does not impress me in terms of evaluating any player. I think of "peak" as about three seasons in a row, on average, though it obviously varies.)

The thing is -- even if we look at one season -- was Fedorov's 1993-94 actually in any way better than, say, Forsberg's 2002-03?

Compare:

1993-94 Fedorov
2nd scoring
4th PPG
+48 (82 games)
+71 = actually on-ice goal differential

2002-03 Forsberg
1st scoring
1st PPG
+52 (75 games)
+96 = actual on-ice goal differential


I mean, if 1993-94 is the main point in Fedorov's having a better peak, it's a sketchy point at best...

It's sketchy if you compare only their offensive totals to their peers no less (Fedorov had better competition).

If we look at overall play, Fedorov won the Selke and Pearson awards for his play that year as well, something Forsberg was unable to do.
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
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Watched both extensively, and peak Fedorov wins this.

Forsberg was slightly better offensively but defensively I don't particularly think this is close. Fedorov was an elite PK player and won a pair of Selke's in an era with considerable talent defensively and offensively. Plus Fedorov lasted longer as a player.

People also gloss over Fedorov being a very underrated postseason player. 4 consecutive great runs from 95 through 98 and he was a key contributor to the 02 title team.
 

GMR

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I see, perhaps you are right. (I personally don't consider one season a "peak", as one season alone does not impress me in terms of evaluating any player. I think of "peak" as about three seasons in a row, on average, though it obviously varies.)

The thing is -- even if we look at one season -- was Fedorov's 1993-94 actually in any way better than, say, Forsberg's 2002-03?

Compare:

1993-94 Fedorov
2nd scoring
4th PPG
+48 (82 games)
+71 = actually on-ice goal differential

2002-03 Forsberg
1st scoring
1st PPG
+52 (75 games)
+96 = actual on-ice goal differential


I mean, if 1993-94 is the main point in Fedorov's having a better peak, it's a sketchy point at best...

Fedorov's season was a lot better, as it was the only time a guy finished that high in scoring and won the Selke. If I'm not mistaken, Datsyuk is the only other player to have done this, but Datsyuk finished top 5 in scoring. Offensively, Fedorov's season was more diverse as well, as he scored 56 goals. Forsberg was never much of a goal scorer. If Forsberg scored over 40 goals and won the Selke in 2003, then maybe I'd be more inclined to agree with your argument.

Also, as others pointed out, Gretzky in 1994 was tougher competition than Naslund in 2003. Heck, the top 10 scorers of 1994 includes nine Hall of Famers. Can't say the same for 2003.
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
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I see, perhaps you are right. (I personally don't consider one season a "peak", as one season alone does not impress me in terms of evaluating any player. I think of "peak" as about three seasons in a row, on average, though it obviously varies.)

The thing is -- even if we look at one season -- was Fedorov's 1993-94 actually in any way better than, say, Forsberg's 2002-03?

Compare:

1993-94 Fedorov
2nd scoring
4th PPG
+48 (82 games)
+71 = actually on-ice goal differential

2002-03 Forsberg
1st scoring
1st PPG
+52 (75 games)
+96 = actual on-ice goal differential


I mean, if 1993-94 is the main point in Fedorov's having a better peak, it's a sketchy point at best...

This is a horrible analysis.

As mentioned, the competition wasn't the same, at all.

In addition, Fedorov actually killed penalties. So his goal differential is actually better than Forsberg while he was most likely spending less time at ES due to having to penalty kill.

Of course then we go down the rabbit hole with average scoring as well..
 

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