Post-Game Talk: Flyers win in overtime

[Striiker]

Careful Beef, this might not be on the approved list of argument topics.

 

[deadhead]

Sanheim playing in the AHL will help him in the future, he's not Patrick in juniors, where he was already uber-dominant and would be wasting a year (same for Frost next year). Sanheim needs to work on his game, and he can do that just fine in the AHL. The idea that sending him down will Pejorative Slur his development is simply wrong - what will Pejorative Slur his development will be his unwillingness to learn how to play NHL caliber hockey and not just depend on his talent.

Goul is up because he provides a specific need, and there is little falloff from the player(s) he replaces in the lineup (Leier, Weise). He provides speed and a physical edge, not much else, but it wasn't like anyone was scoring on the 4th line anyway. And no one worries about his development (or Alt for that matter, who's happy to collect a paycheck as the 7th D-man).

Lindblom isn't up because he'll develop faster playing more minutes and more practice time in the AHL than he would on the 4th line. He could play the PK and the PP at some point, but if you're on a playoff run, do you put a rookie and his growing pains in those situations in the middle of the season? He might blossom, he might struggle.

None of these decisions are unreasonable, none will set back player development, none are worth getting bent out of shape.
It's not like we shipped out Sanheim for a 3rd rd pick because the coach doesn't like him (see some trades around the league).

If there are injuries, they'll be the first callups, if the team falls out of playoff contention they'll be called up (and others shipped out).
Meanwhile, playing in the AHL at age 21 isn't the end of the world.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

The Ghoul decision is objectively unreasonable and terrible, because the guy is a terrible hockey player and has zero impact on the game

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, what specific need does Ghoul provide? Why is sucking for 3 minutes a need?

 

[46zone]

I think it's more that that Flyers winning a CUP, is the real goal....not to just sneak into the playoffs.

If Hextall thought we were Cup contenders, he doesn't trade Schenn. We all can agree on that especially given Schenn can play LW and was on a good contract.

As for Sanheim, the fans that want him playing and getting minutes have their reasons. They KNOW he has untapped high upside. And they know tapping into that upside can help us win a cup in a few years. Take the short term pain for long term gain. They also can look at the stats and see 2 things, he has good possession numbers, but also has been very unlucky. And that matches the eye test. When he makes a mistake, even if it's at the OZ blueline, he doesn't get a save from his goalie or help from others, the puck finds the net MORE than it should. Hence the low PDO. And what we know, is that over time, luck usually normalizes.

Some have said Travis is not an upgrade over someone like Manning. That's debatable for sure but even if it's not and it's a wash, the experience of Sanheim playing and learning at the NHL level is what will help him in the future. I FULLY expect to see Sanheim come up at some point, play well as his "luck" gets better, then see some dumbass say it's because coaching or being benched when it's not.

I personally ALWAYS root for wins this early in the season. If it's clear we are not playoff bound, that's when losses are fine with me. I hope for the playoffs as the top end vets are all having great years and they want it. But ultimately, us winning a cup will be on the backs of the young guys still coming because our vets can't do it all. And Sanheim is a very important piece of the championship puzzle.

I agree with much of what you just wrote. I just think this team is more than capable of winning a round in the playoffs...the Metro is nothing special this season, as is the rest of the conference outside of Tampa & Boston. Much of this is due to their top end talent, but I always felt that by the 18-19 season the roster would have much more depth (Lindblom & Sanheim would help "fill out" the roster). Sanheim needs more seasoning, I felt that before the season and was surprised he made the team over Morin.

I don't think anyone would argue Sanheim's potential versus that of Manning, who has the makings of a journeyman bottom pairing defender, but at the same time I've seen many defenseman play for this team who were worse than Manning (and MacDonald). They're both NHL caliber players, they both belong in a bottom pair or as a 7th, but it's not like we're trotting out Jaroslav Modry or Lukas Krajicek. Manning is a stop gap and I doubt he is re-signed, people just need to get over it. They're several young players on this team who are contributing, and hopefully we'll see Lindblom added to that before too long.

I'm rambling, but basically I agree that Sanheim is a better option to Manning, but it's not worth all the drama it has created on this board.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Turned his game around by doing the things the coached asked him to do for two seasons.
Some players are slow learners.

The point to 15-5-1 is that it's not a fluke:
1) it's not reliant on a goalie playing well above his norm (Mason 2015-16)
2) it's not reliant on a bunch of close wins/OT wins/lucky breaks (3-1)
3) it reflects 5x5 dominance, a revived PP and still putrid PK play

63 - 53
53/602 - .912%
18/77 23.4% PP
14/52 73.% PK
1-4 SH goals
19-18 Special team goals
44-35 Even strength

The two keys to the streak, outplaying opponents at even strength, and discipline, taking far fewer penalties than opponents.

So it would be fair to say this is an average team on a good streak as it's presently constructed?

 

[BernieParent]

Wait what?

If I may interpret, the coach can't score goals or stop goals. He can only put the best people on the ice at the right times to try to score and stop goals.

 

[deadhead]

Talent wise this was an average team, but if Patrick is rounding into shape, and Provorov and Ghost keep elevating each other's game, they may become slightly above average talent wise. Patrick close to 100% is a huge jump from Patrick the first three months of this season.
It would certainly be hard to make the case this team is underperforming, whether they're overperforming remains to be seen.

I have no idea if the current streak is sustainable, that's why they play the games.

I do think it's more reflective of the quality of play than the ten game losing streak, that is, the streak wasn't dependent on a hot goalie (though with Elliott and Neuvirth sharing duties they may just get that the rest of the way), or lot's of close games that went their way due to lucky breaks.

I think to sustain this success they have to improve their PK to "average."

 

[BernieParent]

I mean we do have others to respectably PK now and going forward, and the PK issues are more than personnel. But at the same time, I heard that argument about Giroux, and he’s PKing regularly right now with Laughton (behind the Finnish duo). The PK is god awful, so that’s the main reason.

Ghost in SSS has always been a good PKer by the stats, and I don’t think it would surprise a soul to find out a large sample confirms it as well, with his brilliant instincts, stick checking, compete, speed. It’s just a regressive, old school idea that Ghost can’t PK because of size or offensive skill (and your argument is more should than can’t, Bern). Right now, there is nothing I think Ghost can’t or shouldn’t do. Ghost PKing has been something I have brought up now and again, and that was before he is reaching new levels alongside Provorov. It won’t happen though. For reasons both Ghost related and Hagg/Mac related. I might add I’d prefer Sanheim get PK time over Ghost. Because he’s got plenty of practice and was already the back up PKer, and mostly just to get some dang minutes any way possible.

Side note about this game: 9-3 was the main PK duo. Not 9-47, as usual. No one mentioned it, but a tweak. Anything to get Gudas more minutes.

I hear you and maybe I am guilty of some caveman thinking, but TOI worries me for a top-pairing dman if he is also on PP1 and PKing.

 

[deadhead]

I don't like Ghost on the PK for the same reason I don't like Giroux, but it's worse for a defenseman who takes a physical toll.
He's too valuable offensively to get him hurt on the PK.

 

[Striiker]

Ghost shouldn't have his icetime wasted on the PK.

We need big and reliable guys who can be physical and move people from out in front. Stuff smurfs can't do.

Like this...

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Talent wise this was an average team, but if Patrick is rounding into shape, and Provorov and Ghost keep elevating each other's game, they may become slightly above average talent wise. Patrick close to 100% is a huge jump from Patrick the first three months of this season.
It would certainly be hard to make the case this team is underperforming, whether they're overperforming remains to be seen.

I have no idea if the current streak is sustainable, that's why they play the games.

I do think it's more reflective of the quality of play than the ten game losing streak, that is, the streak wasn't dependent on a hot goalie (though with Elliott and Neuvirth sharing duties they may just get that the rest of the way), or lot's of close games that went their way due to lucky breaks.

I think to sustain this success they have to improve their PK to "average."

If you think it's an average team (with the admitted) possibility to trend upward, why the need to differentiate between 15-5-1 (or whatever it is) being inarguable and the losing streak being a prime regression candidate? If you just said neither one is sustainable without significant improvement or a key injury or two, I'd be completely on board.

I know that you largely agree with the org's approach to things, so that's going to bleed over into your posts as is human nature. I'm equally as guilty of it in the other direction at times. I think that we should at least attempt to be consistent in our thinking. The truth is usually in the grey, especially when it comes to a top-heavy team with a sparkling injury tally thus far.

 

[Striiker]

If you think it's an average team (with the admitted) possibility to trend upward, why the need to differentiate between 15-5-1 (or whatever it is) being inarguable and the losing streak being a prime regression candidate? If you just said neither one is sustainable without significant improvement or a key injury or two, I'd be completely on board.

I know that you largely agree with the org's approach to things, so that's going to bleed over into your posts as is human nature. I'm equally as guilty of it in the other direction at times. I think that we should at least attempt to be consistent in our thinking. The truth is usually in the grey, especially when it comes to a top-heavy team with a sparkling injury tally thus far.

You're asking too much.

 

[46zone]

Try looking at the big picture.

A typical patronizing remark in response to a mild dissenting opinion. You're absolutely right, I'm definitely ignoring the big picture. I clearly stated that I prefer Sanheim playing over Manning for many of the reasons you guys have said, I just can't get worked up over it days on end like you guys.

 

[Striiker]

A typical patronizing remark in response to a mild dissenting opinion. You're absolutely right, I'm definitely ignoring the big picture. I clearly stated that I prefer Sanheim playing over Manning for many of the reasons you guys have said, I just can't get worked up over it days on end like you guys.

You said:

Is it really worth dying on this hill, particularly during a stretch where the team is winning and playing well, over Travis Sanheim?

That fact that you think the team winning during this stretch has anything at all to do with what we're talking about shows you're not looking at the big picture. You're too focused on a tiny handful of games played that don't help us get any closer to winning a cup. What would get us closer is developing our top prospects.

Whether they've won 10 in a row or lost 10 in a row is completely irrelevant, we just want Sanheim in so he can continue improving for further down the road. Winning games right now doesn't make the problem go away.

The logic of "things are good now so why worry about later" is a horrible mentality to have for anything in life. You always need to plan ahead and consider the big picture, other wise you get screwed.

 

[46zone]

You said:



That fact that you think the team winning during this stretch has anything at all to do with what we're talking about shows you're not looking at the big picture. You're too focused on a tiny handful of games played that don't help us get any closer to winning a cup. What would get us closer is developing our top prospects.

Whether they've won 10 in a row or lost 10 in a row is completely irrelevant, we just want Sanheim in so he can continue improving for further down the road. Winning games right now doesn't make the problem go away.

The logic of "things are good now so why worry about later" is a horrible mentality to have for anything in life. You always need to plan ahead and consider the big picture, other wise you get screwed.

Dude, I made it clear I want Sanheim on the roster, because my guess is he would progress as the season goes on. I know the two are not necessarily related, but my point was I just don't see why it's worth fixating on for weeks on end. You don't agree with Hak, I don't either, but at some point you have to move on. Several young players have been contributing during this stretch, isn't that what we want? Just because Sanheim has not had the opportunity to be one of them doesn't mean we should ignore it.

 

[Larry44]

Talent wise this was an average team, but if Patrick is rounding into shape, and Provorov and Ghost keep elevating each other's game, they may become slightly above average talent wise. Patrick close to 100% is a huge jump from Patrick the first three months of this season.

Konecny's greater role and elite skill level really help too. The great play of G and Jake are helping the overall talent level. Adding Lindblom, replacing the 4RW with Aube-Kubel and Flip with Vorobyev will make the team even better next year. When Sanheim, Myers and Morin finally get in the D corps, the team will be bigger, faster and more skilled yet.

 

[Striiker]

Dude, I made it clear I want Sanheim on the roster, because my guess is he would progress as the season goes on. I know the two are not necessarily related, but my point was I just don't see why it's worth fixating on for weeks on end. You don't agree with Hak, I don't either, but at some point you have to move on. Several young players have been contributing during this stretch, isn't that what we want? Just because Sanheim has not had the opportunity to be one of them doesn't mean we should ignore it.

Obviously we want young players to contribute, that's why this is such a big problem. It's not just about Sanheim, it's a terrible pattern that shows no sign of stopping. Sanheim is just the current example of it.

But sure, you're right, why would people continue talking about the most important thing going on right now, and how it could/will effect the future? Short term wins completely make up for this real worry about the future.

 

[deadhead]

If you think it's an average team (with the admitted) possibility to trend upward, why the need to differentiate between 15-5-1 (or whatever it is) being inarguable and the losing streak being a prime regression candidate? If you just said neither one is sustainable without significant improvement or a key injury or two, I'd be completely on board.

I know that you largely agree with the org's approach to things, so that's going to bleed over into your posts as is human nature. I'm equally as guilty of it in the other direction at times. I think that we should at least attempt to be consistent in our thinking. The truth is usually in the grey, especially when it comes to a top-heavy team with a sparkling injury tally thus far.

Losing streak:
20-37 336 SA, .890 S%
4/27 PP 14.8%
11/39 SH 71.8%
16-26 ES
Basically, they were well below their "norm" in every aspect of play, goaltending, PP, PK, ES.

Since that time, goaltending has gone from putrid to average, PP to poor to above average, PK from abysmal to poor.
So it's hard to point to any aspect of their current play that is likely to regress to the mean other than maybe their ES play.

I don't think 15-5-1 is sustainable (120 point pace would make them the best team in the NHL).
18-12-5 would get them to 95 points, that's a reasonable goal this season, and a solid achievement.
If the goalie tandem can provide consistent play and they get the PK to "average," I think this is very doable.
20-10-5 would get them to 99 points, and that would make Hakstol a coach of the year candidate.
16-14-5 would get them to 91 points and on the edge of the playoffs.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

It is commonly accepted that the best players come up big when their teams need them most. Three goals in a month is the opposite of that.

As for some of the other stuff, yes, I was mistaken. It was inaccurate to call Giroux dumb. Saying he was a bad leader was an oversimplification and I should not have said it. Agreed. He’s a terrific player and his leadership is plain to see right now.

Holy f*** did you ever get dunked on.

 

[Amorgus]

No more fighting. Look at the orange and black baby.

 

[Lindberg]

With the PK the way it is there isn't any reason Ghost shouldn't at least be tried on the PK2 in an attempt to improve it. How anyone can be happy about where it is, is beyond me.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I’d play Ghost as a forward on the PK.

 

[Lindberg]

I’d play Ghost as a forward on the PK.

I'd play Ghost as a defensemen since the squad that is there isn't getting it done.

 

[BillDineen]

I’d play Ghost as a forward on the PK.

I do like that idea. He has a good stick and can anticipate really well. As well as providing offense should it go the other way.