Flyers Regular Season Discussion Thread V

[beetee15]

it's anomalie that voracek doesn't score, idk what it is. the team has some talent, has the room been lost? looks like when stevens was on his way out

 

[Lotusflower]

dont want to put words in deadhead's mouth but maybe he's saying Vora is not as AGGRESSIVE (as in attacking the net looking to score) with the puck as you might expect a guy of his size to be?

I can see that. I wish he would charge the net looking to stash the puck more rather than enter the zone beautifully only to pull up and look to pass to a teammate covered by a backchecker

His shot is well below average but if he could be more aggressive in attacking the net using his size and speed he would be that much more effective

 

[Tripod]

So, you think the way Voracek has played the last two years he's a top first line forward? An elite player worth $8+M a year?

Yes, he skates well and makes pretty passes, but explain why he hasn't come close to his 2014-15 season since then - WITH THE SAME PLAYERS - it's not like the Flyers have made any changes in their top six. And these same players are in their prime years, so you can't blame age.

It amazing how the excuses mount up for G & V, these aren't 3rd line wingers making $3M a year, these are supposed to be top players paid like top players, but they're not producing like top players. At some point you have to hold the top players accountable.

And it's not just on offense, Giroux had another sloppy penalty, Voracek had a couple bad turnovers - their +/- numbers, while exaggerated, do reflect that they're not two way players anymore. Caps had their third line matched against Giroux, who won?

We simply don't have a 1st line, right now we have two second lines, a questionable third line and a fourth line that can't score to save its life. We not only need depth, we need some solid players that can take the pressure off G & V, because they can't carry the load.

So we should limit teams to no shots? Seriously, look at the 3 goals against Voracek was out for:

Gudas re-directs puck into the net off of soft wrister
Manning awful turnover, Weise loses battle, Backstrom snipes.
Goal off the rush, 3 vs 3 where Manning gets beat by Ovi and Weise stops skating losing Oshie

The **** players, defense and garbage goaltending bring everyone down.

Oh....and Voracek is 7th in RW scoring over the last 2 seasons. And that's when he could not score to save his life last year to start the season, and with Haks system change this year around Dec where the whole team can't score in an attest to shelter the **** D and goalies.

Again, the more you speak, the more it shows you are awful at evaluating. Sorry dude,

 

[Tripod]

And just to add about Votacek, most see him as a 70 point winger since that's what he has been on average over the last 5 years. Some years better, some worse.

He is at a 67 point pace this year. Not far off of his expected production....just a difference of a bounce here or there.

Also, in Jakes last 10 monthly splits, he has been at a PPG, or 1 point shy of a PPG in 6 of those 10 months. So to say he has been playing bad is certainly false.

And honest person would say that last year he started the year playing awful. Then to "help" him, our dumb ass coach put him with the wonder twins. Yeah, that didn't work. Then once he was paired with Couts, he played well until his injury in March.

With this team, we seem to go to extremes. We win 10 in a row, then are awful to watch. We got great goaltending last year, both are garbage this year.

And as for why he has not replicated his 81 point season, that was fluke year. Or did you expect him to be a 80 point guy finishing top 4 in league scoring? Oh, and we had a coaching change. Maybe that has something to do with things where the emphasis is to get point shots and rebounds it seems. Hell, look at Crosby last year to start the season, then with a coaching and system change, BIG DIFFERENCE: 19 points in 28 games before coach firing, 66 points in 52 games under new coach and system.

He is a 70 point winger who is great at possession with a weak shot. Like Giroux, having a natural goal scorer and shooter to play with would help him a bunch. We have no one who scores like that Kuznetsov goal last night.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I think the coach/system is holding everyone back, but I do think Jake hasn't been playing great lately. I don't know how much of that is me losing sight of him in the general malaise and how much is him just not playing as well as he could. I don't look at the numbers, so I am just going by what my eyes tell me. It's not like he has been terrible, I just think he could stand to pick it up ... system allowing.

 

[Hiesenberg]

I have to beg the question, what happened?

Giroux and Voracek were both pacing to have really good years a mere 40-45 games into the season.

And then the bottom fell out. Was it coaching? If so, why was the coaching good in the first half and bad in the second half. Is it players? Are they hurt?

 

[hatcher]

Top players are c grade talent. Who cares about the rest of the garbage. Provy and ghost need some players to pass to that do something not on a pp.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Top players are c grade talent. Who cares about the rest of the garbage. Provy and ghost need some players to pass to that do something not on a pp.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

 

[Chinatown88]

 

[PALE PWNR]

I have to beg the question, what happened?

Giroux and Voracek were both pacing to have really good years a mere 40-45 games into the season.

And then the bottom fell out. Was it coaching? If so, why was the coaching good in the first half and bad in the second half. Is it players? Are they hurt?

The system changed halfway through the year to a more defense first system. Our defense just sucks, and were playing well above their heads from the start of the season through the 10 game win streak. How many times did we see that graphic during the games showing how many more points our D has over other teams in the leagues? We were just overachieving for a lengthy period of time. And the coach tried to make adjustments to help our goaltenders out and to share the load on D. The defense as a whole regressed to the mean and now we can't score.

 

[renberg]

The **** players, defense and garbage goaltending bring everyone down.

This is the best summary for the cause of the Flyers lousy season. Hakstol can't make chicken salad out of chicken ****. Half of this roster is not up to NHL quality. The dogs in this kennel cause everyone else to try to do more than they should/can which just causes more failure. How can any defenseman cover for the mistakes that Manning, MDZ, Schultz and Streit make constantly every night? For the softies that the goalies allow into the net? When the bottom six forwards are on the ice? G and Jake could be Gretzky and Kurri and the team would still suck.

 

[deadhead]

My standards for Voracek are higher than say, Couts.

Couts is paid like a top 3C, and he's a solid two way player who backchecks, hits, and is a first rate PK guy. Scoring is a bonus with hm, if he puts up 30 ES poiints it's a great season (doesn't get much PP time).

Voracek is the 14th highest paid player in the league at $8.25M a year.
7 players making $9.5M, a few are overpaid, but have the rings to justify an overpay (Toews). So high expectations come with the territory.

I can write last year off, he was out of shape, but excuses are wearing thin this season.
Possession: great numbers from 2012-2015, average CorsiRel 7.0
Last year 3.5, this year 3.1
Takeaway/Giveaway - 3 years 88/97, last two years 44/87
E +/- , 2 years ago 14.7, last year, 6.7, this year 0.9
5x5 scoring pp60
2012-13 2.55
2013-14 1.93
2014-15 2.13
2015-16 1.62
2016-17 1.51

I think it's obvious that it's more than scoring, his possession stats are down, his turnovers are up, he's simply not a dominant player right now.

My suspicion is that top players get heavily scouted, his tendencies get known, he likes to bring the puck in down the right side, reverse, cycle back to the blue line and look to pass. He'll try to make the extra pass instead of shooting. So teams play him to pass and to skate instead of attacking the net.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Voracek is playing fine

All the whining about him and giroux is a lot of energy spent on nothing. Until the slop that constitutes 25% of the roster is upgraded, I have no interest in picking them apart

 

[Striiker]

So, to sum it up, here are Deadheadisms we've been graced with.


-Simmonds is slow (wrong)
-Gudas is slow (wrong)
-Giroux is slow/careless/can't play anymore (wrong)
-Ghost is a liability (wrong)
-Vandevelde is a safe player (super duper wrong)
-Voracek plays like Gagner (wrong)
-MacDonald only had one stretch of bad games (wrong)
-PP points don't count (wrong)
-Icing the best possible roster isn't important if the better players are only a little better than the worst ones. Playing inferior players is fine.
-Hakstol's system is too complicated for players to jump into (..despite quite a few players doing exactly that and doing fine)
-Hakstol only plays Vandevelde and Bellemare because he has no choice (already proved wrong too)

 

[antman12]

I often see posts that voracek was out of shape last season. Was there a reason why? Was he injured?

 

[deadhead]

-Simmonds is slow (wrong) -
he plays slow, how often does he attack the O-zone and split defenders (not open breakaways), heck, how often does ANY Flyer forward do that - I don't see opposing defensemen backing up because they're afraid of being beat.

-Gudas is slow (wrong) -
RIGHT. He's not slow like Schenn or Grossman, but he's not a great skater, he has to be cautious because he's not catching people from behind. That's just the truth, I'm constantly defending him because he has other attributes (like setting a tone with his hits, good offensive instincts and gets the puck on net from the point) that make him a solid defensemen. But which current defensemen are slower (Streit . . .)

-Giroux is slow/careless/can't play anymore (wrong) -
he's not especially quick or fast anymore, which is a problem due to his size (neutralize him by getting a checking body on him), he is careless (another petty penalty last night, too many hooks/trips/holds), is not a top center anymore by any standard (points, possession stats, E +/-).

-Ghost is a liability (wrong)
If Ghost isn't scoring he's certainly a liability, he's not a good defensive defenseman, he's trying harder but lacks bulk, doesn't have the leverage of someone like Kimmo, and is careless with the puck.

-Vandevelde is a safe player (super duper wrong)
He's a 4th liner who's an average PK guy. He's scoring 5x5 at a higher rate than Giroux and much higher rate than Weise or Luby. On THIS team that makes him "safe." Which is the crux of the problem.

-Voracek plays like Gagner (wrong)
I've never accused Voracek of playing like Gagner, (though Gagner is scoring at 1.67 pp60 on 5x5, better than Voracek! And his CorsiRel is also better). Just pointed out that Voracek doesn't hit, doesn't backcheck aggressively, isn't a great shooter and makes too many turnovers for a guy making $8.25M.

-MacDonald only had one stretch of bad games (wrong)
MacDonald had one awful stretch, otherwise he's been mediocre, like most of our D-men. He's the worst in CorsiRel, but scoring 5x5 at twice the rate of Ghost (0.87 v 0.45), and is actually decent in GF% (Ghost is awful). He's meh, so what's new?

-PP points don't count (wrong)
PP scoring is a specialty skill, but most of the game is played at ES, and good teams avoid penalties (and refs swallow their whistles) in the playoffs. So you have to build around ES talent and add PP scorers on the margin (i.e. you can hide one or two who are mediocre at ES but good on the PP on your 3rd line or 3rd D pairing). Players who score on the PP but are liabilities at ES are not good players. Your star forwards should be well above average on both the PP and ES.

-Icing the best possible roster isn't important if the better players are only a little better than the worst ones. Playing inferior players is fine.

If the better players are only a little better than the worse ones (and in the case of say Luby v VdV, that's debatable, Luby can't score to save his life), it doesn't matter - YOU STILL SUCK.

-Hakstol's system is too complicated for players to jump into (..despite quite a few players doing exactly that and doing fine)

Provorov is an exceptional talent, Konency has struggled and was benched at times, Luby looks lost at times. One reason Hakstol had to go into a shell was poor defensive responsibility by a number of forwards. It's a system that requires higher hockey IQ, defensemen must make good decisions and forwards have to be aware when defensemen are attacking and cycle back to prevent breakaways.

-Hakstol only plays Vandevelde and Bellemare because he has no choice

He has no choice, they only have two good PK pairs, Couts and Simmons and VdV and PEB, Read has steadily declined as a PK guy, Giroux is awful in that role (nor do you want him in that role), Weise has never done it and Luby is too undisciplined right now. Luby might be the most overrated player by some posters - while he has size and speed, he doesn't accomplish much on the ice other than hustle.

 

[Flyotes]

I often see posts that voracek was out of shape last season. Was there a reason why? Was he injured?

His mom's cooking. No joke.

 

[Curufinwe]

That was the reason given in 13-14. In 15-16, no one was talking about Voracek looking out of shape in preseason. It only started when his shooting percentage was abnormally low to start the season.

-Vandevelde is a safe player (super duper wrong)
He's a 4th liner who's an average PK guy. He's scoring 5x5 at a higher rate than Giroux and much higher rate than Weise or Luby. On THIS team that makes him "safe." Which is the crux of the problem.

He's last in GF% while getting easy minutes. That's the opposite of safe. It doesn't matter what points a player individually scores at 5 on 5 if the team is getting killed when he's on the ice over a three year, 200+ game sample.

 

[Beef Invictus]

His mom's cooking. No joke.

Yeah he legitimately admitted to getting fat lol

 

[Striiker]

he plays slow, how often does he attack the O-zone and split defenders (not open breakaways), heck, how often does ANY Flyer forward do that - I don't see opposing defensemen backing up because they're afraid of being beat.

He neither skates slow, nor plays slow.

You're wrong.

RIGHT. He's not slow like Schenn or Grossman, but he's not a great skater, he has to be cautious because he's not catching people from behind. That's just the truth, I'm constantly defending him because he has other attributes (like setting a tone with his hits, good offensive instincts and gets the puck on net from the point) that make him a solid defensemen. But which current defensemen are slower (Streit . . .)

Since coming here skating has never once been an issue for Gudas.

Wrong again.

he's not especially quick or fast anymore, which is a problem due to his size (neutralize him by getting a checking body on him), he is careless (another petty penalty last night, too many hooks/trips/holds), is not a top center anymore by any standard (points, possession stats, E +/-).

So I assume you missed the last two games? He was flying and played great. Further proving this is merely a slump.

Wrong again.

If Ghost isn't scoring he's certainly a liability, he's not a good defensive defenseman, he's trying harder but lacks bulk, doesn't have the leverage of someone like Kimmo, and is careless with the puck.

He isn't a liability at all. He's average defensively, you just like to exaggerate. Plus, even when not scoring he's fantastic at moving the puck by either making nice passes or skating it out.

Wrong again.

He's a 4th liner who's an average PK guy. He's scoring 5x5 at a higher rate than Giroux and much higher rate than Weise or Luby. On THIS team that makes him "safe." Which is the crux of the problem.

Any points he has are 100% luck. He's horrible and the furthest thing from a safe player, on any team.

Wrong again.

I've never accused Voracek of playing like Gagner, (though Gagner is scoring at 1.67 pp60 on 5x5, better than Voracek! And his CorsiRel is also better). Just pointed out that Voracek doesn't hit, doesn't backcheck aggressively, isn't a great shooter and makes too many turnovers for a guy making $8.25M.

You said he plays like a non-aggressive 180lbs playmaker...
Everything you've posted about Voracek for the past day has been wildly incorrect, as if you've never watched him.

Wrong again.

MacDonald had one awful stretch, otherwise he's been mediocre, like most of our D-men. He's the worst in CorsiRel, but scoring 5x5 at twice the rate of Ghost (0.87 v 0.45), and is actually decent in GF% (Ghost is awful). He's meh, so what's new?

Actually he's only had one decent stretch, and that was just recently before being scratched by your hero Hakstol. Everything else has been awful.

Wrong again.

PP scoring is a specialty skill, but most of the game is played at ES, and good teams avoid penalties (and refs swallow their whistles) in the playoffs. So you have to build around ES talent and add PP scorers on the margin (i.e. you can hide one or two who are mediocre at ES but good on the PP on your 3rd line or 3rd D pairing). Players who score on the PP but are liabilities at ES are not good players. Your star forwards should be well above average on both the PP and ES.

Oh, the "most of the game is 5v5" nonsense... completely ignoring that it only takes a little PP time to score so it doesn't matter how much is 5v5. And there were plenty of PP's last year in the playoffs... it's just that they couldn't score on them (partially because of injuries).

Wrong again.

Playing inferior players is fine.

Horrible mentality. Utter nonsense used to defend Hakstols stupidity.

Horribly wrong.

Provorov is an exceptional talent, Konency has struggled and was benched at times, Luby looks lost at times. One reason Hakstol had to go into a shell was poor defensive responsibility by a number of forwards. It's a system that requires higher hockey IQ, defensemen must make good decisions and forwards have to be aware when defensemen are attacking and cycle back to prevent breakaways.

There's plenty of other new guys who come in and played perfectly fine. You're just making this up as an excuse for why he plays inferior players. You say other look lost at times but 76+78 look lost always.

So... wrong.

He has no choice, they only have two good PK pairs, Couts and Simmons and VdV and PEB, Read has steadily declined as a PK guy, Giroux is awful in that role (nor do you want him in that role), Weise has never done it and Luby is too undisciplined right now. Luby might be the most overrated player by some posters - while he has size and speed, he doesn't accomplish much on the ice other than hustle.

He absolutely has a choice. He's scratched Weise, Cousins, Read, and Lyubimov over them many times and 76+78 have never sat once despite being the worst forwards on the team by far. Also, if he did't love them he wouldn't be line matching them against top lines and using them as the top PK unit.

El wrongo.



So literally all of this is incorrect, but thanks for proving me right about your nonsense.

 

[antman12]

His mom's cooking. No joke.

Yeah he legitimately admitted to getting fat lol

Thanks guys.

I hate to use this word becuase of the b****y and whinny tone of it...

But thats completely unacceptable to come into camp out of shape and fat as a profession athlete. Not to MENTION after his first off season after getting his big fat contract. How anybody can be okay with that is laughable.

 

[Beef Invictus]

-Simmonds is slow (wrong) -
he plays slow, how often does he attack the O-zone and split defenders (not open breakaways), heck, how often does ANY Flyer forward do that - I don't see opposing defensemen backing up because they're afraid of being beat.

-Gudas is slow (wrong) -
RIGHT. He's not slow like Schenn or Grossman, but he's not a great skater, he has to be cautious because he's not catching people from behind. That's just the truth, I'm constantly defending him because he has other attributes (like setting a tone with his hits, good offensive instincts and gets the puck on net from the point) that make him a solid defensemen. But which current defensemen are slower (Streit . . .)

-Giroux is slow/careless/can't play anymore (wrong) -
he's not especially quick or fast anymore, which is a problem due to his size (neutralize him by getting a checking body on him), he is careless (another petty penalty last night, too many hooks/trips/holds), is not a top center anymore by any standard (points, possession stats, E +/-).

-Ghost is a liability (wrong)
If Ghost isn't scoring he's certainly a liability, he's not a good defensive defenseman, he's trying harder but lacks bulk, doesn't have the leverage of someone like Kimmo, and is careless with the puck.

-Vandevelde is a safe player (super duper wrong)
He's a 4th liner who's an average PK guy. He's scoring 5x5 at a higher rate than Giroux and much higher rate than Weise or Luby. On THIS team that makes him "safe." Which is the crux of the problem.

-Voracek plays like Gagner (wrong)
I've never accused Voracek of playing like Gagner, (though Gagner is scoring at 1.67 pp60 on 5x5, better than Voracek! And his CorsiRel is also better). Just pointed out that Voracek doesn't hit, doesn't backcheck aggressively, isn't a great shooter and makes too many turnovers for a guy making $8.25M.

-MacDonald only had one stretch of bad games (wrong)
MacDonald had one awful stretch, otherwise he's been mediocre, like most of our D-men. He's the worst in CorsiRel, but scoring 5x5 at twice the rate of Ghost (0.87 v 0.45), and is actually decent in GF% (Ghost is awful). He's meh, so what's new?

-PP points don't count (wrong)
PP scoring is a specialty skill, but most of the game is played at ES, and good teams avoid penalties (and refs swallow their whistles) in the playoffs. So you have to build around ES talent and add PP scorers on the margin (i.e. you can hide one or two who are mediocre at ES but good on the PP on your 3rd line or 3rd D pairing). Players who score on the PP but are liabilities at ES are not good players. Your star forwards should be well above average on both the PP and ES.

-Icing the best possible roster isn't important if the better players are only a little better than the worst ones. Playing inferior players is fine.

If the better players are only a little better than the worse ones (and in the case of say Luby v VdV, that's debatable, Luby can't score to save his life), it doesn't matter - YOU STILL SUCK.

-Hakstol's system is too complicated for players to jump into (..despite quite a few players doing exactly that and doing fine)

Provorov is an exceptional talent, Konency has struggled and was benched at times, Luby looks lost at times. One reason Hakstol had to go into a shell was poor defensive responsibility by a number of forwards. It's a system that requires higher hockey IQ, defensemen must make good decisions and forwards have to be aware when defensemen are attacking and cycle back to prevent breakaways.

-Hakstol only plays Vandevelde and Bellemare because he has no choice

He has no choice, they only have two good PK pairs, Couts and Simmons and VdV and PEB, Read has steadily declined as a PK guy, Giroux is awful in that role (nor do you want him in that role), Weise has never done it and Luby is too undisciplined right now. Luby might be the most overrated player by some posters - while he has size and speed, he doesn't accomplish much on the ice other than hustle.

 

[Striiker]

 

[Chinatown88]