Flyers pursuing Russian D-man Nikita Zaitsev | 5/24 - Staying in KHL

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Well, that logic is strange.

What if they picked me in the 6th round? Still not a bad pick? Still just a scrub with a minuscule chance? More like a complete waste of a selection with no chance at all.

Drafting a player out of prep school rarely pays off to begin with. Drafting a kid out of prep school who didn't even put up a PPG at prep school is a guaranteed failure. There aren't many things black and white regarding player projection, but I've never seen a player fail to dominate prep school and later become an NHL contributor.

That pick was worse than Goulbourne, imo.

Yeah, good point. Better logic: I don't think it was a good pick so it wasn't. The Flyers obviously didn't scout him and just picked him because of his name.

 

[dats81]

Guess the Flyers weren't looking at him as hard as thought.

Maybe Medvedev had been their primary target all the time and Zaitsev was just a smoke screen?

One can only hope Hextall and his scouts know what they are doing.
The last time there were lot's of rumours about the Flyers targeting a Veteran player from Europe they actually came up with... Johan Backlund

Thinking out of the box is fine as long as you don't us it as an excuse for plain stupidity.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

But that is his name and that's the entire point...

So if his name was Joe Smith you would have a different opinion of the pick?

 

[Embiid]

I still don't get why we took Luuko.

Peter didn't even want us taking him.

Yeah I remember when they drafted him.....it seemed Peter was all sheepish as though Holmgren and the Flyers did him and his son a favor. Apparently so.....despite the denials by Holmgren and Co.

I'm just glad so far there is a culture change with that quid pro quo crap. I remember Clarke pretty much got Peter White a stint on the Flyers b/c he was his son in law. Dude had no business in the NHL.....

 

[Haute Couturier]

The fact that Holmgren took Nick Luukko in the 6th round and not the 7th says that they weren't doing it out of novelty.

Didn't they claim they had him ranked around the 3rd round? Even though Luukko himself didn't expect to be drafted.

 

[Flyotes]

So if his name was Joe Smith you would have a different opinion of the pick?

I know I would.

 

[Random Forest]

So if his name was Joe Smith you would have a different opinion of the pick?

He wouldn't have been picked if his name was Joe Smith.

 

[Haute Couturier]

Maybe Medvedev had been their primary target all the time and Zaitsev was just a smoke screen?
.

I'm thinking they were turned off by Zaitsev's desire to remain in the KHL for another year and moved on to someone else.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I know I would.

Well to me that proves my point. The pick isn't as bad as folks think, people are just throwing out conspiracy theories and it sounds worse. I am not way saying this was a good pick. It wasn't. But we are talking about a 6th round pick from five years ago. That is ****ing ridiculous.

He wouldn't have been picked if his name was Joe Smith.

#illuminati #confirmed

 

[Flyotes]

The pick isn't as bad as folks think, people are just throwing out conspiracy theories and it sounds worse. I am not way saying this was a good pick. It wasn't. But we are talking about a 6th round pick from five years ago. That is ****ing ridiculous.

The juice isn't really worth the squeeze to debate this, I agree.

 

[Random Forest]

A ****ing conspiracy theory? Are you joking?



Surely that had nothing to do with his name...

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

A ****ing conspiracy theory? Are you joking?



Surely that had nothing to do with his name...

Good point, since the Devils made the pick solely on name (according to you), it means the Flyers did too.

#confirmed

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

And you know what...even if it was a pick based solely on his name. Doing the kid a favor. If that is literally what happened...the Flyers Brass said, "Look, we know this kid sucks and has no chance of ever playing a game in the NHL, but his dad works for us so let's take him," it still wouldn't matter. Why? Because it is a ****ing 6th round pick. It is a ****ty pick for sure. Regardless of whether or not it happened because of his name or because the Flyers just thought he was better than he really is...it is a 6th round pick from five years ago. It has zero impact on the team now, and had zero impact back then.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So if his name was Joe Smith you would have a different opinion of the pick?

He wouldn't have been picked.

 

[Flyotes]

I think you're exaggerating. He's not that bad of a player. He's also a long project. But, the name thing is obnoxious and I don't know what it means, but those who desire a wider array of opinions in organizations to avoid echo chambers and are wary of nepotism (which the NHL has -- the Flyers are no different) aren't in love with the pick.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Well to me that proves my point. The pick isn't as bad as folks think, people are just throwing out conspiracy theories and it sounds worse. I am not way saying this was a good pick. It wasn't. But we are talking about a 6th round pick from five years ago. That is ****ing ridiculous.



#illuminati #confirmed

And you know what...even if it was a pick based solely on his name. Doing the kid a favor. If that is literally what happened...the Flyers Brass said, "Look, we know this kid sucks and has no chance of ever playing a game in the NHL, but his dad works for us so let's take him," it still wouldn't matter. Why? Because it is a ****ing 6th round pick. It is a ****ty pick for sure. Regardless of whether or not it happened because of his name or because the Flyers just thought he was better than he really is...it is a 6th round pick from five years ago. It has zero impact on the team now, and had zero impact back then.

Wow. I want to be surprised, but needless to say I'm not.

The pick has zero impact on the team because it never had the chance to from the start. The pick was thrown away. It's never excusable to purposefully hurt your team, even if the chances it hurts you are 1%.

To also ignore and downplay the nepotism displayed there is classic DFF

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

He wouldn't have been picked.

You don't know that. You can say it all day long but you don't know that. I could probably say that about any pick after the third round and I could be right. He played four years at the University of Vermont so he couldn't have been that bad. It isn't like he was drafted out of high school and then went on to play one year in the Pro Beach Hockey League and was never heard from again. His chances of making the NHL weren't much worse (if at all) than any of the other players from which the Flyers could have chosen (now this is where you say, "NUH-UH, I saw his stats and everyone, including the Flyers, knew he had zero chance to make the NHL and would not have been drafted"). Sure, maybe they could have picked Zaitsev if they didn't take Luuko. Or maybe they were planning on taking Mark Stone who went one pick earlier and Luuko was going to be the 7th round pick. Or maybe they wanted David Elsner who is having just a wonderful career in the German minor leagues.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Wow. I want to be surprised, but needless to say I'm not.

The pick has zero impact on the team because it never had the chance to from the start. The pick was thrown away. It's never excusable to purposefully hurt your team, even if the chances it hurts you are 1%.

To also ignore and downplay the nepotism displayed there is classic DFF

This is where the conspiracy theories come in to play. Who said they are purposefully hurting the team? You? They picked a guy related to someone that works for the Flyers. Has someone come out and said that they did it as a favor to his father? What did the scouts say about the pick? Why didn't they do it in the 7th round? Are they REALLY that stupid that not only did they waste a pick...but they did it when they still had extra picks! Are you really telling me that you think a room full of NHL scouts and GMs took a look at the draft board, saw a guy they apparently knew was terrible and would not have been drafted...and drafted him in the 6th round when they still had a 7th round pick...just to be nice to the kid or his father? That is what you seriously think happened? Are ****ing kidding me? And you know this based on the sole fact that he is related to a member of the Flyers organization. And I am the crazy one?

 

[BringBackHakstol]

This is where the conspiracy theories come in to play. Who said they are purposefully hurting the team? You? They picked a guy related to someone that works for the Flyers. Has someone come out and said that they did it as a favor to his father? What did the scouts say about the pick? Why didn't they do it in the 7th round? Are they REALLY that stupid that not only did they waste a pick...but they did it when they still had extra picks! Are you really telling me that you think a room full of NHL scouts and GMs took a look at the draft board, saw a guy they apparently knew was terrible and would not have been drafted...and drafted him in the 6th round when they still had a 7th round pick...just to be nice to the kid or his father? That is what you seriously think happened? Are ****ing kidding me? And you know this based on the sole fact that he is related to a member of the Flyers organization. And I am the crazy one?

If you really want to believe he was picked purely on merit and purely objective criteria, then go right ahead. You'll find yourself with few agreeing on that point (like always with you).

It's far more likely that their relationship with Peter and his son clouded their judgement. How overt their awareness of the nepotism is, we will never know. But if you can't put this together, that's you just being willfully stubborn (again, as always).

And considering what happened regarding Ghoul and the Flyers defying their own draft board, I wouldn't put it past them to do something nonsensical. It feels to me that they made up their minds they wanted to put Luuko in the organization as a gesture, and got scared someone just might take him in round 7 so they decided to do it a round early. Which makes it even worse.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

If you really want to believe he was picked purely on merit and purely objective criteria, then go right ahead. You'll find yourself with few agreeing on that point (like always with you).

It's far more likely that their relationship with Peter and his son clouded their judgement. How overt their awareness of the nepotism is, we will never know. But if you can't put this together, that's you just being willfully stubborn (again, as always).

Ok, wait. So first it was that they purposefully hurt the team, and that I am ignoring and downplaying nepotism (that is literally what you said please don't say, I NEVER SAID THAT and make me keep going back and quoting it). And now it is that the relationship with Peter Luuko clouded their judgment and they may not have been aware of the nepotism. Those are two VERY different things. If you are telling me that they had a different view of Luuko because they were familiar with him..that very well may be the case. That doesn't mean it is a bad thing...could have also meant that they just knew something everyone else didn't. But still, not the same thing as knowing he was a scrub and still picking him.

And considering what happened regarding Ghoul and the Flyers defying their own draft board, I wouldn't put it past them to do something nonsensical. It feels to me that they made up their minds they wanted to put Luuko in the organization as a gesture, and got scared someone just might take him in round 7 so they decided to do it a round early. Which makes it even worse.

And here...if someone was scared he might be chosen...don't you think there is a reason for that? If other teams might have been considering him...even if the Flyers were only interested in him because of his name (which may not have been the case according to your most recent post), why would someone get scared? Again...do you think the Flyers are that stupid? I mean...if he was so obviously not worth the pick...why would anyone think he would be selected?

You are telling me that it is more likely that the Flyers are SO stupid that they not only chose a guy that they knew would never play in the NHL, but did it early out of fear that someone else might take him (which was equally stupid because everyone knows no one was interested him). You don't see how silly that sounds? Or do you really believe that is how stupid the Flyers are? And if you do...why then do you say in the above-quoted text that it is just the relationship that clouded their judgment and they may not have realized they were favoring him?

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Ok, wait. So first it was that they purposefully hurt the team, and that I am ignoring and downplaying nepotism (that is literally what you said please don't say, I NEVER SAID THAT and make me keep going back and quoting it). And now it is that the relationship with Peter Luuko clouded their judgment and they may not have been aware of the nepotism. Those are two VERY different things. If you are telling me that they had a different view of Luuko because they were familiar with him..that very well may be the case. That doesn't mean it is a bad thing...could have also meant that they just knew something everyone else didn't. But still, not the same thing as knowing he was a scrub and still picking him.



And here...if someone was scared he might be chosen...don't you think there is a reason for that? If other teams might have been considering him...even if the Flyers were only interested in him because of his name (which may not have been the case according to your most recent post), why would someone get scared? Again...do you think the Flyers are that stupid? I mean...if he was so obviously not worth the pick...why would anyone think he would be selected?

You are telling me that it is more likely that the Flyers are SO stupid that they not only chose a guy that they knew would never play in the NHL, but did it early out of fear that someone else might take him (which was equally stupid because everyone knows no one was interested him). You don't see how silly that sounds? Or do you really believe that is how stupid the Flyers are? And if you do...why then do you say in the above-quoted text that it is just the relationship that clouded their judgment and they may not have realized they were favoring him?

It could be either they took him out of pure novelty, or less nefarious they had their judgement clouded because of how close they are to the Luuko's. I don't know the answer - no one does. The point is, I'm not buying that it's coincidence that he just so happened to be their highest rated player at that slot purely on objective scouting. If you want to believe that, I think it's naive, but its your right.

Regarding them being scared someone else would take him. It's a possibility. But it doesn't mean that this view would have been grounded in reality. Whether they were scared someone else would take him or not is not really relevant to if the pick was justified or not, unless you are saying they had some insider info on other team's 7th round draft boards, which I doubt

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Wow. I want to be surprised, but needless to say I'm not.

The pick has zero impact on the team because it never had the chance to from the start. The pick was thrown away. It's never excusable to purposefully hurt your team, even if the chances it hurts you are 1%.

To also ignore and downplay the nepotism displayed there is classic DFF

I really don't like this logic. well it was a 6th round pick. who gives a **** because any player from round 6 has little to no chance to be a NHL player. The Tampa Bay Lightning say Hi on that logic.
You do your homework and draft the best player on the board. you don't draft guys because you want to do them someone a favor.
Using that logic makes it ok to draft some goon like Mathers over a guy with skill.
Or Klotz for God knows what reason even earlier. It is stupid and senseless goddamn logic.

 

[Flyotes]

One rationale I could think of, just spitballing, is they had a lot of knowledge of him due to his last name so they felt confident in selecting him there over guys they knew less about or were less confident in their knowledge about.

I'm not saying he's a bad player or even a bad pick, but the selection raises an eyebrow and you can't divorce him from that.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

It could be either they took him out of pure novelty, or less nefarious they had their judgement clouded because of how close they are to the Luuko's. I don't know the answer - no one does. The point is, I'm not buying that it's coincidence that he just so happened to be their highest rated player at that slot purely on objective scouting. If you want to believe that, I think it's naive, but its your right.

Ok...so again...let me get this straight...I am naive to believe that they chose a player based on their objective scouting because you think he is not a good player. A more reasonable answer is that they did it as a favor to his father. They knew he wasn't good and knew he would be there in the 7th round, but took him any way just to make his dad happy (or they thought he wouldn't be there as you aknowledged in a prior post...which doesn't really fit your narrative of the pick being worthless).

Let me ask you this. Had you seen Nick Luuko play before the draft? Do you know what his strengths and weaknesses are? Were you present when the scouts (assuming they did) spoke with him or his coaches? Did you see a lot of other guys play that they could have drafted? Do you know their strengths and weaknesses? Were you present when the scouts (assuming they did) spoke with him or his coaches? But yeah...I'm naive because I think the Flyers did their homework. Makes sense.

Regarding them being scared someone else would take him. It's a possibility. But it doesn't mean that this view would have been grounded in reality. Whether they were scared someone else would take him or not is not really relevant to if the pick was justified or not, unless you are saying they had some insider info on other team's 7th round draft boards, which I doubt

It is certainly relevant. If they thought someone else would pick him, there must have been some interest in him, and therefore it would not support the "novelty" argument you are making. And yeah, they probably do have some idea of what other teams are going to do. That's why people trade up at the draft, because they think other teams are going to draft a player. But whatever...You are right, it is much more likely that they did it out of nepotism and wanted to appease Peter Luuko.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I really don't like this logic. well it was a 6th round pick. who gives a **** because any player from round 6 has little to no chance to be a NHL player. The Tampa Bay Lightning say Hi on that logic.
You do your homework and draft the best player on the board. you don't draft guys because you want to do them someone a favor.
Using that logic makes it ok to draft some goon like Mathers over a guy with skill.
Or Klotz for God knows what reason even earlier. It is stupid and senseless goddamn logic.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying it is a good idea to make picks you know will fail. Not at all. I'm saying if you make a bad pick in the later rounds, it is not the end of the world. Certainly not worth complaining about five years later.

Now, let's say they had Zaitsev on their board and the entire room wanted to pick him in the 6th, but Homer said no we have to take Nick Luuko to make his dad happy. Then that is 100% a terrible and unforgivable move. But no one is saying that happened. They just made a bad pick. No harm, no foul.