GDT: Flames vs Sharks 8:00 MT

[HighLifeMan]

Lucic goal

 

[super6646]

This coach is mentally ill

 

[Ace Rimmer]

 

[Felidae]

Of course the one game I miss in weeks they break their losing streak smh..

 

[Some Other Flame]

lol this dotard is either trying to get fired or this is foreshadowing a trade for Josh Anderson, which would further cement the idea that Dutter the Dotard is indeed the GM.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

lol this dotard is either trying to get fired or this is foreshadowing a trade for Josh Anderson, which would further cement the idea that Dutter the Dotard is indeed the GM.

Wouldn't it be something if the Future Considerations from the Sean Monahan trade was indeed Josh Anderson, but traded later in the season because of the salary cap implications.

Dare to dream.

 

[super6646]

lol this dotard is either trying to get fired or this is foreshadowing a trade for Josh Anderson, which would further cement the idea that Dutter the Dotard is indeed the GM.

Hey don’t make fun of him! He’s just giving his best buddy a chance! Leave him alone!!!!

 

[Mobiandi]

Amazing

 

[Body Checker]

Lol, Lucic puts one off Karlsson's nuts and gets a promotion the to the 2nd line. Who knew a nut shot was a good thing.

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

Treliving trying to convince Huberdeau and Kadri to sign long term in the summer:

“How would you guys feel about playing together with Milan Lucic on your right wing? I know, I know he hasn’t scored in a year, but when he gets hot nobody in the league gets as hot as Milan”

 

[Anglesmith]

I mean, yes and no.
I do feel like they're giving up more quality than they did last year. Which is confusing considering they have what on paper feels like a more complete two-way group.

Also Markstrom has struggled mightily. I like Marky a lot, but I don't think anyone could really protect how bad he's been for most of the year.

I still think it's an unfair assessment. People talk about how goalies should give their team a chance to win. I think it's a two way street: it's incumbent on a team to give their goalie a chance to win and put up numbers. If you are 25 games into a season and still haven't figured out a way to stop giving up multiple odd man rushes every game, it's not a goalie issue.

Generally, when teams do give up a lot of quality chances, goalies' numbers suffer, and as a byproduct their confidence goes down and they start letting in legitimate bad goals. It's like Dubnyk in Edmonton. The Flames have been super guilty of this as a team all year, and so for me it's hard to pin much on Markstrom. There aren't really any losses that I can think of off the top of my head where Markstrom played below the level of the team.

 

[Nanuuk]

I don't have a problem with Looch playing yp on the 2 line if it happens.

Reasons why:

Dube has earned a good long hard look on the 1 line.

Mangiapane's game has improved, but he needs a reboot from where he had such a great year last season. With Backs and Coleman. Reuniting this line will at a minimum give us that very good shutdown line.

Rosie's game has fallen off a bit due to some inconsistency. Dropping him down to the 4 line where a workhorse vet like Lewis never quits can't hurt. Especially if Phillips draws in at RW. Rose and Philly have history.

It has been noted by some scribes that Huberdeau had a lot of success with two left shots. Neither Huberdeau or Kadri are super speedy. I think Looch can keep up with them. Looch can hopefully pick up garbage goals or stand there waiting for Huby to spot him at the side of the crease. Kadri is a shooter. Looch might be able to pot a few rebounds as he is next to impossible to move once he parks it.

Yes the risk is that the 2 line gets caught up ice. So you make sure Weegs and Tanev on the ice when they are.

 

[Tofveve]

Good to hear. That had vicous intent and Lindholm got off lucky. Couldn't believe Hertl was acting butt hurt in the penalty box. That was way worse than McSorley on Brashear IMO (I know, drawing on an incident from forever ago).

 

[Fig]

Treliving trying to convince Huberdeau and Kadri to sign long term in the summer:

“How would you guys feel about playing together with Milan Lucic on your right wing? I know, I know he hasn’t scored in a year, but when he gets hot nobody in the league gets as hot as Milan”

I feel like you're hinting we're supposed to sing that Disney song, but replace Gaston with Milan...

Oh my, wadda guy, Milan!

 

[Ace Rimmer]

 

[HighLifeMan]

I still think it's an unfair assessment. People talk about how goalies should give their team a chance to win. I think it's a two way street: it's incumbent on a team to give their goalie a chance to win and put up numbers. If you are 25 games into a season and still haven't figured out a way to stop giving up multiple odd man rushes every game, it's not a goalie issue.

Generally, when teams do give up a lot of quality chances, goalies' numbers suffer, and as a byproduct their confidence goes down and they start letting in legitimate bad goals. It's like Dubnyk in Edmonton. The Flames have been super guilty of this as a team all year, and so for me it's hard to pin much on Markstrom. There aren't really any losses that I can think of off the top of my head where Markstrom played below the level of the team.

It's not a unfair assessment though as it's backed up completely by the statistics.

Among goaltenders who have started 10 or more games - Markstrom ranks

45th/61 in save percentage
55th/61 in shots against per 60
50th/61 in goals saved above average
33rd/61 in high danger save percentage

He faces 7.71 high danger chances against per 60 minutes which is the 11th least among all 61 goaltenders.

He's flat out sucked this season and has absolutely cost this team significantly in the standings. To say otherwise completely contradicts not only the statistics but the eye test as well. He leads the charge for disappointments on the season, no doubt about it.

 

[Anglesmith]

It's not a unfair assessment though as it's backed up completely by the statistics.

Among goaltenders who have started 10 or more games - Markstrom ranks

45th/61 in save percentage
55th/61 in shots against per 60
50th/61 in goals saved above average
33rd/61 in high danger save percentage

He faces 7.71 high danger chances against per 60 minutes which is the 11th least among all 61 goaltenders.

He's flat out sucked this season and has absolutely cost this team significantly in the standings. To say otherwise completely contradicts not only the statistics but the eye test as well. He leads the charge for disappointments on the season, no doubt about it.

I know what the numbers say, but honestly I'm completely happy to ignore them, as I have always felt that the current status of goaltending advanced stats is suspect at best and don't really hold up to analysis.

As I've said all year long, the way the Flames control possession but don't control their own slot is the absolute worst case scenario for goaltending stats. It has never been about quantity of shots from the slot. The average goaltender will face their fair share of off-balance and contested shots from the "high-danger" areas to pad those stats, but the Flames generally have an all-or-nothing defensive approach where they either prevent a shot entirely or allow the opponent to walk in uncontested.

Obviously it's an exaggeration, but game after game it's been like 8 SOG against and the Flames have allowed two goals where they hung their goalie out to dry. The whole run of this kind of play began with the Seattle game where they allowed two breakaways while playing with the lead, then an odd-man rush for the winner against Vladar. Not acceptable for an NHL team in my opinion.

People can believe what they want, but like I have said I can't recall a game where Markstrom did his job worse than the rest of his team. Do you have many examples of this?

 

[HighLifeMan]

I know what the numbers say, but honestly I'm completely happy to ignore them, as I have always felt that the current status of goaltending advanced stats is suspect at best and don't really hold up to analysis.

As I've said all year long, the way the Flames control possession but don't control their own slot is the absolute worst case scenario for goaltending stats. It has never been about quantity of shots from the slot. The average goaltender will face their fair share of off-balance and contested shots from the "high-danger" areas to pad those stats, but the Flames generally have an all-or-nothing defensive approach where they either prevent a shot entirely or allow the opponent to walk in uncontested.

Obviously it's an exaggeration, but game after game it's been like 8 SOG against and the Flames have allowed two goals where they hung their goalie out to dry. The whole run of this kind of play began with the Seattle game where they allowed two breakaways while playing with the lead, then an odd-man rush for the winner against Vladar. Not acceptable for an NHL team in my opinion.

People can believe what they want, but like I have said I can't recall a game where Markstrom did his job worse than the rest of his team. Do you have many examples of this?

I just don't understand how you can overlook even the most basic of stats. A goaltender's job is to stop the puck and he's doing it at a level far worse than his peers. It's really that simple. He's the 7th highest paid goaltender in the league - and hasn't come even remotely close since the Dallas series to playing up to that contract. Vladar has outplayed him - full stop.

I don't expect him to have the most dazzling stats as I agree with you that Calgary does a great job at limiting low danger shots that tend to inflate a goaltenders numbers - but an .894% is simply not acceptable.

Quite frankly he should not be starting as much as he is.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

As a whole Markstrom has had a terrible season. But that’s only cause he was absolutely abysmal for about 3 weeks. He hasn’t let in many softies the last 6 or 7 starts though.

I still play Vladar at least half the time.

 

[Anglesmith]

I just don't understand how you can overlook even the most basic of stats. A goaltender's job is to stop the puck and he's doing it at a level far worse than his peers.

Because this mentality assumes that the job is the same for all of his peers, which is true only if we pretend that defensive play doesn't matter.

I just think it's ludicrous how the Flames manage to pump 45 hopeful shots from distance at the other goalie, get zero odd-man rushes, but allow three against on 20 shots and expect Markstrom to match the stats of the other goalie.

The mentality of "it's his job to stop pucks" is fine if the Flames match the chances of the opposition. But objectively speaking, the Flames are among the easiest teams in the league to play goalie against based on where and how they generate shots, and are coupling it with asking their goalies to make huge saves with regularity. To beat the other goalie, our goalie has to be not just as good as his peers, but far better.

 

[Mobiandi]

This season's Markstrom is playing exactly like Brian Elliott did for us

 

[HighLifeMan]

Because this mentality assumes that the job is the same for all of his peers, which is true only if we pretend that defensive play doesn't matter.

I just think it's ludicrous how the Flames manage to pump 45 hopeful shots from distance at the other goalie, get zero odd-man rushes, but allow three against on 20 shots and expect Markstrom to match the stats of the other goalie.

The mentality of "it's his job to stop pucks" is fine if the Flames match the chances of the opposition. But objectively speaking, the Flames are among the easiest teams in the league to play goalie against based on where and how they generate shots, and are coupling it with asking their goalies to make huge saves with regularity. To beat the other goalie, our goalie has to be not just as good as his peers, but far better.

Again - you can ignore the stats all you want but they point to a goaltender who faces less high danger chances against than 82% of his peers. You seem unwilling to acknowledge that every other team in the NHL has breakdowns and allows scoring chances with regularity as well.

I can't help but to point at Timo Meier's goal the other night. While at first glance it looks completely unstoppable - a closer look shows that it's a play that Markstrom simply doesn't read well whatsoever and reacts to incredibly late. While I don't blame him for letting that in, it highlights a goaltender that is really struggling to read and react to plays at an NHL level, and who's positioning is in need of serious tuning.

In just 7 of his 22 games started this year has he finished with above the league average SV% this season.

 

[super6646]

Again - you can ignore the stats all you want but they point to a goaltender who faces less high danger chances against than 82% of his peers. You seem unwilling to acknowledge that every other team in the NHL has breakdowns and allows scoring chances with regularity as well.

I can't help but to point at Timo Meier's goal the other night. While at first glance it looks completely unstoppable - a closer look shows that it's a play that Markstrom simply doesn't read well whatsoever and reacts to incredibly late. While I don't blame him for letting that in, it highlights a goaltender that is really struggling to read and react to plays at an NHL level, and who's positioning is in need of serious tuning.

In just 7 of his 22 games started this year has he finished with above the league average SV% this season.

Everyone will see what they want to see at the end of the day. I happen to agree with you, however.

Stats can help mitigate bias, but even those are open to interpretation and criticism too. I vehemently disagree with angel, but I mean if he's sticking to his guns so be it.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Everyone will see what they want to see at the end of the day. I happen to agree with you, however.

Stats can help mitigate bias, but even those are open to interpretation and criticism too. I vehemently disagree with angel, but I mean if he's sticking to his guns so be it.

Oh, I agree. I respect Angel and his opinions - just struggle to understand them on this occasion, but that's ok.

This team leads the league in losses by one goal - even league average goaltending would have this team in a far more comfortable spot.

Don't get me wrong - we have many other areas of concern as well, but the most difficult thing to overcome is bad goaltending.

 

[Anglesmith]

This season's Markstrom is playing exactly like Brian Elliott did for us

Fittingly, their offence is just like it was under Gulutzan. Back to the point, D to D, hopeful wrister.

Again - you can ignore the stats all you want but they point to a goaltender who faces less high danger chances against than 82% of his peers. You seem unwilling to acknowledge that every other team in the NHL has breakdowns and allows scoring chances with regularity as well.

I can't help but to point at Timo Meier's goal the other night. While at first glance it looks completely unstoppable - a closer look shows that it's a play that Markstrom simply doesn't read well whatsoever and reacts to incredibly late. While I don't blame him for letting that in, it highlights a goaltender that is really struggling to read and react to plays at an NHL level, and who's positioning is in need of serious tuning.

In just 7 of his 22 games started this year has he finished with above the league average SV% this season.

The entire idea of high danger shots vs. medium danger shots vs. low danger shots is to avoid treating all shots the same and to dig a little bit into the fact that you can't expect a goalie to perform the same against different types of chances. To appeal to these statistics while expressing a blanket denial of the fact that factors exist to break down shots from different areas into further tiers of danger contains a healthy dose of irony.

I've asked multiple times for examples of the team playing well and Markstrom letting them down in a loss, but I haven't heard much. It hasn't really happened, and yet everyone seems very sure that it has.

Attacking that Meier goal last game is textbook confirmation bias. What the Sharks did there (perhaps I should say what they were allowed to do there) is a legit way to score a goal in the NHL. The Flames basically scored twice on the same type of play in the third. The first fault there goes to the skaters not taking away the most dangerous option. If you want to criticize Markstrom for not predicting the future, you will find that every goal is a bad goal.

Markstrom is a goalie who is proven at this point in terms of what he can do when the team has its defence sorted out. The fact that Sutter hasn't been able to get this team back to that is deeply concerning to me.