Prospect Info: Flames prospect rankings: #10 RUN-OFF POLL

[OvermanKingGainer]

The fact that Engelland + Kulak is at 59.0% as a pair seems to speak to a) low sample size and b) completely different usage. That, of course, makes a lot of sense. Engelland/Kulak is the sort of pairing that would only be used against the weakest of opposition, as Kulak was never really trusted by Hartley. When paired with veterans, however, Engelland would've been more trusted.

A sample size of about 57 minutes is big enough to indicate a clear trend, even if you need a bigger sample to really have a strong sense of the absolutes.

As for the usage, The pair wasn't all that sheltered. they were a bottom pair used as a bottom pair with a 33/33/33℅ split in their faceoff starts. While Hartley obviously controlled matchups to a small degree to favour the pair - that is not a bad thing. Better to have a bottom pair that is helping you than to have a bottom pair that is killing you. There is zero value in throwing Engelland out there to get shelled as is the case when he is paired with Diaz, Smid, Wideman, Brodie, Giordano, Russell, or Jokipakka. Period. That is how you get yourself fired. This pair passed the eye test in a way no partner for Engelland has ever passed the eye test, which is the only reason I brought up the stats. It was the only time I have ever thought Engelland was not being overwhelmed by the hard forechecking nature NHL play. Kulak handled the breakout, the transition defense, and kept the puck onside, while Engelland cleared the front of the net and let Kulak handle the hockey part of hockey.

As for the peanut gallery with their typical weak remarks about layman's stats recording shot attempts, they can believe and preach whatever ancient dogma they want to preach. The value of their dated opinions ain't exactly high and no one with common sense is listening. However it's pretty disappointing they are allowed to sit on that soap box beating that dead horse trying to indoctrinate everyone with their precept instead of acting like grownups and simply accepting viewpoints outside of their little bubble.

 

[WeegarUnderwood]

There's no reason to hate on corsi. Advanced stats are stats after all and can be very useful when looked at properly (not saying someone didn't use it properly, just saying)

 

[Lunatik]

There's no reason to hate on corsi. Advanced stats are stats after all and can be very useful when looked at properly (not saying someone didn't use it properly, just saying)

There is plenty of reason to hate them when they are the basis for an argument because they should not be used as such. The fact that they might tell someone that Kulak is better than Engelland shows how ridiculously flawed they are. No opinion where the crux of the argument is corsi is worth anything IMO and frankly those who will use corsi as the crux of an argument automatically plummet to the bottom of those whose opinions I value.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Yawn. The eye test is what tells someone that Kulak is better than Engelland at the sport of Ice Hockey. If you know what to look for, and what not to overreact to, in terms of elements correlated with "winning".

The on ice contrast in shot attempts is just what highlights it. Which, naturally, is then used as support.

[mod]

 

[WeegarUnderwood]

There is plenty of reason to hate them when they are the basis for an argument because they should not be used as such. The fact that they might tell someone that Kulak is better than Engelland shows how ridiculously flawed they are. No opinion where the crux of the argument is corsi is worth anything IMO and frankly those who will use corsi as the crux of an argument automatically plummet to the bottom of those whose opinions I value.

I can respect that

Yeah that's fair, all I meant was if advanced stats are used in a proper manner then they can be helpful. Not saying they're the end all be all.

 

[Anglesmith]

Run-off poll time:

Morgan Klimchuk (26.92%)
Brett Kulak (23.08%)
Mason McDonald (11.54%)

 

[Lunatik]

I can respect that

Yeah that's fair, all I meant was if advanced stats are used in a proper manner then they can be helpful. Not saying they're the end all be all.

If used properly they can be helpful for sure. But let's be honest they almost never are, especially by those who think they are the be all and end all, which is ironic because it is them themselves that make it so many can't take these stats seriously.

 

[Lunatik]

Vote Klimmer to be winner.

 

[SaintMorose]

Well I'll switch back to Klimmer for the tie-break (had voted Kulak intially as I like him a lot and wanted to switch up my vote after the same guy) every time you talk to the guys down in Stockton they really like him and it's wasn't a strong offensive team to begin with before a couple guys got buried.

Kulak I like a lot as well, has a great toolkit and Engelland really helped him not look out of place at all as a NHL regular to start the season

 

[Lunatik]

Well I'll switch back to Klimmer for the tie-break (had voted Kulak intially as I like him a lot and wanted to switch up my vote after the same guy) every time you talk to the guys down in Stockton they really like him and it's wasn't a strong offensive team to begin with before a couple guys got buried.

Kulak I like a lot as well, has a great toolkit and Engelland really helped him not look out of place at all as a NHL regular to start the season

I appreciate knowing that some people are hearing us.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I voted for Klimmer. It is nice to see progression in someone like Kulak though. But I will not be surprised if Culkin has a big camp and passes Kulak.

 

[InfinityIggy]

A sample size of about 57 minutes is big enough to indicate a clear trend, even if you need a bigger sample to really have a strong sense of the absolutes.

57 minutes is not a large enough sample size to establish a 'clear trend'. That is an absolutely ridiculous assertion.

As for the tie-breaker, Klimchuk.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I swear to god, if Eetu goes over Dube in these polls you guys are gonna have to deal with me *****ing in every thread till we finish these polls.

While draft position hardly matters once hockey starts playing again, our own NHL team just picked them literally 100 picks apart. And 29 other teams passed on Eetu 156 times.

You can argue all you want that he should have gone higher (and generally I may be inclined to agree) but this is even dumber than the ******** last year with people arguing Kylington should go over Andersen, despite that our own team just said otherwise weeks before!

Dube is a great prospect and I'm super happy we got him where we did. I forgot to mention him last poll, but he's in the same tier of forwards as Klimchuk, Pollock and Mangiapane for me in our pool. If those guys are B class prospects right now, then Eetu is a C.

Went with Klimchuk, though I definitely was torn. Kulak and McDonald are equally as worthy here.

 

[Lunatik]

I swear to god, if Eetu goes over Dube in these polls you guys are gonna have to deal with me *****ing in every thread till we finish these polls.

While draft position hardly matters once hockey starts playing again, our own NHL team just picked them literally 100 picks apart. And 29 other teams passed on Eetu 156 times.

You can argue all you want that he should have gone higher (and generally I may be inclined to agree) but this is even dumber than the ******** last year with people arguing Kylington should go over Andersen, despite that our own team just said otherwise weeks before!

Dube is a great prospect and I'm super happy we got him where we did. I forgot to mention him last poll, but he's in the same tier of forwards as Klimchuk, Pollock and Mangiapane for me in our pool. If those guys are B class prospects right now, then Eetu is a C.

Went with Klimchuk, though I definitely was torn. Kulak and McDonald are equally as worthy here.

I want to vote E2 now so you lose your mind

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Shouldn't that logic apply to Klimchuk vs Kulak FF? I mean our management played Kulak as a #1 D in the AHL with ~ 10 games at the NHL level. Seems like Klimchuk is getting the benefit of the doubt because of his draft position. What does Klimchuk do better then Kulak? Defend? no. Produce offence? No. Skating? God no. I mean even going back to post draft junior years Kulak was almost scoring as much as Klimchuk, and he played on some abysmal Vancouber teams.

While Klimchuk toiled on the fourth line in Stockton. Kulak was basically the best player on that team besides D. Grant. Klimmer was what, 20th best on the team? Kulak brings more to the table defensively, he scores more then Klimchuk. And yet Klimchuk is winning this poll. Seems like our management is pretty high on Kulak, and putting Klimmer on the 4th line at this point shows what they think of Klimmer IMO.

So logically, I guess HF boards knows more then our management. I'm not surprised, this board has a disdain for players that are NHL ready. Players that have already become what most other prospects will never become, NHL talents.

Why I was so pissed about Ferland last year. For a team that almost never produces homegrown NHL talent, we had one of our few home grown players with NHL talent and we ranked him 11 because of his 'low potential'. When in reality his floor (NHL player) was higher than the 90% of our other prospects will ever reach.

 

[Anglesmith]

Shouldn't that logic apply to Klimchuk vs Kulak FF? I mean our management played Kulak as a #1 D in the AHL with ~ 10 games at the NHL level. Seems like Klimchuk is getting the benefit of the doubt because of his draft position. What does Klimchuk do better then Kulak? Defend? no. Produce offence? No. Skating? God no. I mean even going back to post draft junior years Kulak was almost scoring as much as Klimchuk, and he played on some abysmal Vancouber teams.

While Klimchuk toiled on the fourth line in Stockton. Kulak was basically the best player on that team besides D. Grant. Klimmer was what, 20th best on the team? Kulak brings more to the table defensively, he scores more then Klimchuk. And yet Klimchuk is winning this poll. Seems like our management is pretty high on Kulak, and putting Klimmer on the 4th line at this point shows what they think of Klimmer IMO.

So logically, I guess HF boards knows more then our management. I'm not surprised, this board has a disdain for players that are NHL ready. Players that have already become what most other prospects will never become, NHL talents.

Why I was so pissed about Ferland last year. For a team that almost never produces homegrown NHL talent, we had one of our few home grown players with NHL talent and we ranked him 11 because of his 'low potential'. When in reality his floor (NHL player) was higher than the 90% of our other prospects will ever reach.

Comparing prospects who are different ages and play different positions based on the AHL depth chart is largely meaningless, even without considering different development curves. This past season was Kulak's third at the professional level. The year before, he was sent down to the ECHL for half of the year. So who's to say Klimchuk can't become a top-line AHLer this season?

For the umpteenth time, the best prospect is not decided by who is the best player right now.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

I swear to god, if Eetu goes over Dube in these polls you guys are gonna have to deal with me *****ing in every thread till we finish these polls.

While draft position hardly matters once hockey starts playing again, our own NHL team just picked them literally 100 picks apart. And 29 other teams passed on Eetu 156 times.

You can argue all you want that he should have gone higher (and generally I may be inclined to agree) but this is even dumber than the ******** last year with people arguing Kylington should go over Andersen, despite that our own team just said otherwise weeks before!

Dube is a great prospect and I'm super happy we got him where we did. I forgot to mention him last poll, but he's in the same tier of forwards as Klimchuk, Pollock and Mangiapane for me in our pool. If those guys are B class prospects right now, then Eetu is a C.

Went with Klimchuk, though I definitely was torn. Kulak and McDonald are equally as worthy here.

Really? You're going to lose your **** over someone who's probability of making the NHL is probably 5% lower than Dube?

That seems... pointless.

At the end of the day, maybe four of these top 20 will go on to have an NHL career of note.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Comparing prospects who are different ages and play different positions based on the AHL depth chart is largely meaningless, even without considering different development curves. This past season was Kulak's third at the professional level. The year before, he was sent down to the ECHL for half of the year. So who's to say Klimchuk can't become a top-line AHLer this season?

For the umpteenth time, the best prospect is not decided by who is the best player right now.

You are incorrect. Kulak is one year older. He played a few games at the end of the 13/14 season. But he turned pro in the 14/15 season. Started the season in the ECHL. Got called up and finished the season on the top pairing and had 13 points in 26 games. Where Klimchuk had 9 in 55 AHL games.. Kulak outscored Klimmer in less then half the games at a more crucial defensive position, in their first pro seasons.

Kulak was the best D-man on the team in his second year pro. Will Klimchuk become one of the best players on the AHL team next year? We'll see

 

[Anglesmith]

You are incorrect. Kulak is one year older. He played a few games at the end of the 13/14 season. But he turned pro in the 14/15 season. Started the season in the ECHL. Got called up and finished the season on the top pairing and had 13 points in 26 games. Where Klimchuk had 9 in 55 AHL games.. Kulak outscored Klimmer in less then half the games at a more crucial defensive position, in their first pro seasons.

Kulak was the best D-man on the team in his second year pro. Will Klimchuk become one of the best players on the AHL team next year? We'll see

Knowing Klimchuk, it's entirely possible. He was not drafted to the organization to be a fourth-liner, but his season last year by all accounts was not entirely wasted, as he did develop his game in non-offensive ways. It's time for him to get back to doing what we drafted him for, though, which means playing him in the top six. Don't want to Kobasew this guy.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Shouldn't that logic apply to Klimchuk vs Kulak FF? I mean our management played Kulak as a #1 D in the AHL with ~ 10 games at the NHL level. Seems like Klimchuk is getting the benefit of the doubt because of his draft position. What does Klimchuk do better then Kulak? Defend? no. Produce offence? No. Skating? God no. I mean even going back to post draft junior years Kulak was almost scoring as much as Klimchuk, and he played on some abysmal Vancouber teams.

While Klimchuk toiled on the fourth line in Stockton. Kulak was basically the best player on that team besides D. Grant. Klimmer was what, 20th best on the team? Kulak brings more to the table defensively, he scores more then Klimchuk. And yet Klimchuk is winning this poll. Seems like our management is pretty high on Kulak, and putting Klimmer on the 4th line at this point shows what they think of Klimmer IMO.

So logically, I guess HF boards knows more then our management. I'm not surprised, this board has a disdain for players that are NHL ready. Players that have already become what most other prospects will never become, NHL talents.

Why I was so pissed about Ferland last year. For a team that almost never produces homegrown NHL talent, we had one of our few home grown players with NHL talent and we ranked him 11 because of his 'low potential'. When in reality his floor (NHL player) was higher than the 90% of our other prospects will ever reach.

No, because I'm comparing guys that were literally just drafted and haven't played any meaningful hockey since then.

You also failed to consider that I'm just not as high on Kulak as others. I saw a guy who skates well, but doesn't really excel at much. Nothing wrong with that at all, I just think it means a limited upside overall.

Of course, plenty of people are going to disagree with me, and I don't blame them. But that's just my opinion. I still like him, I just like what I saw from Klimchuk also in junior.

Really? You're going to lose your **** over someone who's probability of making the NHL is probably 5% lower than Dube?

That seems... pointless.

At the end of the day, maybe four of these top 20 will go on to have an NHL career of note.

Lose my mind may be an overstatement but yes.

I'm tired of how this board falls in love with prospect A and will never, ever ever hear anything bad about them. Prospect A is a guaranteed top six forward/top four defenseman! Prospect A kisses puppies every morning!

Even though we see that the Flames definitely preferred Prospect B quite recently over prospect A.

 

[Lunatik]

Comparing prospects who are different ages and play different positions based on the AHL depth chart is largely meaningless, even without considering different development curves. This past season was Kulak's third at the professional level. The year before, he was sent down to the ECHL for half of the year. So who's to say Klimchuk can't become a top-line AHLer this season?

For the umpteenth time, the best prospect is not decided by who is the best player right now.

Not only that but Kulak wasn't the #1 D in the AHL, wasn't even #2. Nakladal was #1, Stevenson #2 and it is debatable if it was Kulak or Wotherspoon at #3.

Also AS it was Kulak's 2nd pro season.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I don't disagree with you FF, but as an aside.

We know that teams, the Flames included will often take players in the draft not based just on their internal rankings, but based upon where they think the player will be available.

Hypothetically speaking, they may have been extremely high on on Eetu, and perhaps saw his potential as being better than some guys we picked earlier. However, they also knew he wouldn't be selected at the earliest, until the 6th round. So they waited.

I think the easy example to throw out here is Gaudreau. They had him ranked much higher than where they took him, and if he was projected to go earlier than say, Wotherspoon they probably would have taken Gaudreau there.

I am not saying that is the case in this instance, just that the order that we picked these guys isn't necessarily the order in which our scouts view them.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Again though FF you are kinda contradicting yourself.

you are upset that people prefer one player over another because of their own biased opinion (ie Tuulo over Dube) in Oppositon to a quantifiable difference imposed by our management (draft position)

Yet, then you proceed to provide your own bias opinion (Klimchuk over Kulak) in the face of quantifiable differences (depth chart- ones a top line guy/the other played 4th line) between those players that was decided by our management.

So you are basically saying trust our management at the draft, but after that, they have no idea what they are talking about so listen to my opinion...

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I don't disagree with you FF, but as an aside.

We know that teams, the Flames included will often take players in the draft not based just on their internal rankings, but based upon where they think the player will be available.

Hypothetically speaking, they may have been extremely high on on Eetu, and perhaps saw his potential as being better than some guys we picked earlier. However, they also knew he wouldn't be selected at the earliest, until the 6th round. So they waited.

I think the easy example to throw out here is Gaudreau. They had him ranked much higher than where they took him, and if he was projected to go earlier than say, Wotherspoon they probably would have taken Gaudreau there.

I am not saying that is the case in this instance, just that the order that we picked these guys isn't necessarily the order in which our scouts view them.

Which is fair, and to an extent I'm sure this is true, especially when it comes to boom bust prospects.

I'm super excited to see how Eetu does in the CHL this year, I really am. I'm just not ready to say he's as solid a prospect as a guy who was ranked as high as 37th going into the draft.

Once hockey starts again, draft goes out the window as far as I'm concerned. But for now it's as close as we have to an actual gauge of "value" so to speak.

 

[Lunatik]

Which is fair, and to an extent I'm sure this is true, especially when it comes to boom bust prospects.

I'm super excited to see how Eetu does in the CHL this year, I really am. I'm just not ready to say he's as solid a prospect as a guy who was ranked as high as 37th going into the draft.

Once hockey starts again, draft goes out the window as far as I'm concerned. But for now it's as close as we have to an actual gauge of "value" so to speak.

You know what blows? E2 will not play a road game in AB next season