Post-Game Talk: Flames @ Jets | Double-win: The Petanening.

[Holden Caulfield]

I start defending Peluso when absurd statements are made about him, or people start piling on. I still think the guy has some potential but it's becoming clear he is not going to get the game time to improve enough to be an everyday player.

Anyone who actively hurts the team by being on the ice should not be getting gametime to develop. Go back to AHL if that's the case. NHL is not a development league.

 

[sully1410]

What you described to me is a 'superstar'

Buff, Little, Ladd, Wheeler, Enstrom and Perreault imo are stars

You had me until Enstrom and Perrault.

 

[RECCE]

Raffl was pissed last night.

I've seen this posted before, what gave you the impression that he was "pissed"?

Just in case you accidentally missed it, how did you know he was pissed?

 

[kyle o connor]

I liked the whole exchange, tbh.


For the record I'd take Raffl in the line up 10 times out of 10 over Peluso (or Thor for that matter)

I start defending Peluso when absurd statements are made about him, or people start piling on. I still think the guy has some potential but it's becoming clear he is not going to get the game time to improve enough to be an everyday player.



I'd like to make just a couple of counters to this:

A> We DON'T know that Raffl can do that job. He dropped the gloves, which is admirable, but what if he gets pounded and Calgary gets momentum from it?

B> Can you imagine the outrage if Peluso is on the ice, lets Raffl fight, and Raffl gets concussed? Security would have to kitty bar the doors at the MTS Centre to stop the mob. Peluso saw a mismatch from an experience standpoint and stood up for his teammate -- the one thing he actually does to the satisfaction of this forum. Let's at LEAST give the kid that.

The guy played 49 games last year and had more punches landed than shots on goal. Just because our coaching/management has antiquated views on the necessity of an enforcer, that doesnt make him any more useful when the games are going to start to count. He's not agile enough to even be just a 4th line energy player and hands of stone is an understatement.

A: Correct, we don't know if Raffl can do that job, but I'd much rather throw him in there versus dressing Peluso and weighing down any offensive production from the 4th line. If Raffl doesnt work out, fine. Dumpster diving through waivers is a better option than dressing Peluso.

 

[Board Bard]

True enough, but the thing that I felt really was notable was those super quick little dish-offs in close to the goal. There just seemed to be a level of instantaneous decision making that often has eluded us in the past. Petan and Ehlers both seem to be able to make those split second decisions when they see a guy open or going to the net and they have the skill to actually put the puck in just the right place to make the play happen.

I agree, and not only are those plays quick but they're often totally unexpected -- both of those kids can look one way and pass in a different direction (like a good quarterback looking off the safety). That has caught their own teammates off guard in a few situations already. Nobody else on the team does it to that extent, they're more likely to telegraph exactly what they intend to do (passing or shooting) and take too long doing it.

 

[garret9]

I think enforcers are unnecessary and a negative, but I would caution that association isn't causation.

Thanks.
Glad you told me.
I was unaware of this.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I agree, and not only are those plays quick but they're often totally unexpected -- both of those kids can look one way and pass in a different direction (like a good quarterback looking off the safety). That has caught their own teammates off guard in a few situations already. Nobody else on the team does it to that extent, they're more likely to telegraph exactly what they intend to do (passing or shooting) and take too long doing it.

Exactly. I've been saying throughout the preseason that ehlers and petan will keep the existing players on their toes as much as the opposition. There have been some beautiful setups missed because they were unexpected. Teammates are going to be challenged with thinking the game a little faster. That's a very good thing.

 

[garret9]

Thus far all evidence shows that teams that dress enforcers:
* tend to lose more
* tend to get injured more (could be from fights)
* tend to have negative relationship on gate revenue (likely due to losing more)

There has been great research on this on the website Habs Eyes on the Prize the past few weeks.

There's also been evidence that teams that have enforcers tend to win more with them in the press box than dressed...

Some links to that statistical analysis please?

Bolded.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Some links to that statistical analysis please?

Its from a site that has been trying to defend the Habs for not bringing in toughness when some fans are suggesting they do that because they are tired of seeing them get beat up by the Bruins

fyi though

I think you can win with them or without them. All that matters is how the team is playing. I personally believe personal at the NHL level has very little to do with it especially with a salary cap. What matters is what you do with the group you have.

 

[garret9]

Its from a site that has been trying to defend the Habs for not bringing in toughness when some fans are suggesting they do that because they are tired of seeing them get beat up by the Bruins

fyi though

I think you can win with them or without them. All that matters is how the team is playing. I personally believe personal at the NHL level has very little to do with it especially with a salary cap. What matters is what you do with the group you have.

Well ya. No one says you can't win with or without them.
It's very obvious you can.

Tanner Glass is a terrible hockey player, one of the worst, worse than many enforcers, yet very, very, very good teams have dressed Glass. It's the overall combinative abilities of the group. Glass on PIT didn't all of a sudden make Crosby and Malkin ****.

However, one tends to be better.
The facts are true regardless of why someone wanted to look up the facts.

Toughness /= enforcers and you know this.
Being able to grind down your opponent. Being able to win puck battles. Being able to force your way into the prime areas. Finishing your checks effectively and quickly so the opponent may scramble with the puck. Possibly cause injury to opponent. Obviously these things are not the same as having a 4 min TOI pugilistic specialist used to fight other pugilistic specialist as some quasi deterrent.
If the Jets sent down Peluso today they'd still be one of the tougher teams, but have no enforcer.

HEotP saying enforcers don't have any evidence of working is discussing a separate topic than needing team toughness.
After all, Habs should be a good example, since they've dressed enforcers before but lack overall team toughness.

 

[RECCE]

Bolded.

Is this what you were referencing?
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/a...-in-depth-analysis-fighting-hockey-nhl-part-3

 

[RECCE]

Its from a site that has been trying to defend the Habs for not bringing in toughness when some fans are suggesting they do that because they are tired of seeing them get beat up by the Bruins

fyi though

I think you can win with them or without them. All that matters is how the team is playing. I personally believe personal at the NHL level has very little to do with it especially with a salary cap. What matters is what you do with the group you have.

I searched the sight anyways, I can see the bias. ;-)

 

[ellismate]

You had me until Enstrom and Perrault.

Perrault is streaky as hell. He has been pretty terrible at completing passes and stickhandling so far this pre season

 

[garret9]

I searched the sight anyways, I can see the bias. ;-)

Their love of no fights must have changed history

 

[garret9]

Perrault is streaky as hell. He has been pretty terrible at completing passes and stickhandling so far this pre season

He's also:

19th in 5v5 points per minute
50th in Corsi% (shot attempts for/all shot attempts)
25th in improving linemate Corsi%
29th in Goal% (goals for/all goals)
26th in improving linemate Goal%

^over last 4 seasons combined, min 1k mins


Very underrated player.
IMO: Put him on a first line (and get him to stop getting injured) and he could be a top 60 player in the NHL.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

HEotP saying enforcers don't have any evidence of working is discussing a separate topic than needing team toughness.
After all, Habs should be a good example, since they've dressed enforcers before but lack overall team toughness.

Exactly. Edmonton is another example. Edmonton is one of, if not the softest team in the league. Luke Gazdic does nothing to change this at all. 4 mins of a guy that hurts the team by being on the ice will not make a team tough.

 

[Gil Fisher]

Were the Jets not going to skate this morning? I haven't seen any report of line rushes and who's making the trip.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Were the Jets not going to skate this morning? I haven't seen any report of line rushes and who's making the trip.

See TC thread. Munz tweets

 

[tacogeoff]

Exactly. Edmonton is another example. Edmonton is one of, if not the softest team in the league. Luke Gazdic does nothing to change this at all. 4 mins of a guy that hurts the team by being on the ice will not make a team tough.

imo "enforcers" are nothing but entertainment for the crowd. I cannot realistically see how GMs and coaches would see them as anything but. A goon fighting at home can spark the arena and create a entertainment spectacle (only time other than a goal when you see a majority of the arena on their feet). Obviously regular players can do this as well IE: wheeler the other night but you risk serious injury of one of your good players IE Kane. So for the entertainment/spectacle area I can understand why we have a "enforcer" on contract and like many other I do not see the intimidation and protection factor at all. I honestly cannot understand why we have 2 on contract. I guess thorburn has more skill than the average enforcer but still I could live with just one or the other in the press box and on the ice to entertain me with a tilt every once and a while (barbaric, I know lol)

 

[Jet]

Anyone who actively hurts the team by being on the ice should not be getting gametime to develop. Go back to AHL if that's the case. NHL is not a development league.

That's true. Players never develop in the NHL. You go on and on and on and on about Peluso HURTING the team. Really? I'd love to see some actual facts that he is hurting the team more than just wild hate for the guy.

Yes, I do realize if someone like Raffl was in instead of him the 4th line MIGHT play more but we don't even know if that is a fact. Maurice has been known to lean on his better players (and he isn't the only coach to do so.)

Yep, Peluso has below average ability. He sometimes struggles to make hockey plays. Tell me, though, in the BIG picture... how many goals and games has he cost the Jets. Without bias, tell me that.

You had me until Enstrom and Perrault.

You don't think Enstrom and Perreault are stars?

I'd say Perreault had close to the biggest single positive impact on the Jets making the post season last year. He has a very good shot, slick hands, very good agility and above average vision/ passing.

He's a star in my books.

I do realize it's all semantics. I believe a good team might have 5 - 7 stars. Some teams have a superstar, some don't. I like to think the Jets talent is spread out with more stars and no superstars. As much as a superstar is great, they don't always = success.

I'd rather have more stars.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Well ya. No one says you can't win with or without them.
It's very obvious you can.

Tanner Glass is a terrible hockey player, one of the worst, worse than many enforcers, yet very, very, very good teams have dressed Glass. It's the overall combinative abilities of the group. Glass on PIT didn't all of a sudden make Crosby and Malkin ****.

However, one tends to be better.
The facts are true regardless of why someone wanted to look up the facts.

Toughness /= enforcers and you know this.
Being able to grind down your opponent. Being able to win puck battles. Being able to force your way into the prime areas. Finishing your checks effectively and quickly so the opponent may scramble with the puck. Possibly cause injury to opponent. Obviously these things are not the same as having a 4 min TOI pugilistic specialist used to fight other pugilistic specialist as some quasi deterrent.
If the Jets sent down Peluso today they'd still be one of the tougher teams, but have no enforcer.

HEotP saying enforcers don't have any evidence of working is discussing a separate topic than needing team toughness.
After all, Habs should be a good example, since they've dressed enforcers before but lack overall team toughness.

What I am trying to say is it doesn't really matter who the Jets or Habs or any dresses on the 4th line. If you compare them to say Chicago the difference is they have Toews and Kane and those teams don't

It is my belief that those types of players make a bigger difference on whether you win or lose

 

[garret9]

What I am trying to say is it doesn't really matter who the Jets or Habs or any dresses on the 4th line. If you compare them to say Chicago the difference is they have Toews and Kane and those teams don't

It is my belief that those types of players make a bigger difference on whether you win or lose

Yes, you are 100% correct the top of the lineup matters more.
That's obvious. They have more TOI so they have much larger impact.

However, the lower players still make A difference.

So, you are still wrong that it doesn't really matter who they dress on the fourth line.
The Jets, for example, have dressed some of the worst fourth lines in the league over the past four seasons. That has cost them games.

 

[Jet]

Let's carry on the discussion in today's GDT.

Closed.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

That's true. Players never develop in the NHL.

That's a strawman argument. That's not what I said. I said a player that is not NHL quality should not be in NHL. Rather they should develop more (or not) then come back to NHL when they are to develop up the lineup.

You go on and on and on and on about Peluso HURTING the team. Really? I'd love to see some actual facts that he is hurting the team more than just wild hate for the guy.

I've been over this. His forechecking angles are poor allowing opponants to easily exit the zone. He doesn't get in shooting lanes in defensive zone. Doesn't angle properly in any zone. Often out of position. Makes poor decisions with the puck. Struggles to change direction in his skating, very poor agility. Doesn't pick up on rotations in defensive zone. I could go on.

Actual facts there. You'll notice it all when you watch the games if you watch more than just the puck. As for numbers that's garrett's which he has shown in the past.

Yep, Peluso has below average ability. He sometimes struggles to make hockey plays. Tell me, though, in the BIG picture... how many goals and games has he cost the Jets. Without bias, tell me that.

Stats are garrett's department. But Peluso has never cost a game. There isn't a single player in the NHL or out of that will win or lose a game for a team. It's a team game. He has caused goals against, but equally as important are things that go along with him being a weakness. Things like tiring out top 3 lines since 4th can't be trusted due to him. Swings of momentum for other team as they pin the Jets in their own zone due to him.