Post-Game Talk: Flames 4, Pens 3 (SO) - Chris 'Old Yeller' Kunitz Gets a Point out of the Boys

[Pancakes]

I don't know. Kessel is weird. He's awful along the boards. He loses almost every board battle.

He's great with it on his stick though and is a wizard on the powerplay, so he's still incredibly nice to have.

I think the thing with Kessel is you just have to accept he's not going to be a possession darling except under very specific circumstances (ie, HBK when clicking or HMK). He does well with linemates who do all the work for him and who can hold onto the puck and take care of the possession side of things.

The other thing about Kessel is when the games truly matter he starts to actually care about board battles. He was far from deficient at those last playoffs. So while I'm always leery of hoping a guy flips a switch maybe he's just one of those types who becomes a much better even strength player when it's required of him.

 

[Shady Machine]

Seems people were just saying this about Crosby and Guentzel the other day...

Wonder if there's some sort of connective thread there. Nah.

You obviously aren't watching the same game I am if you have no issue with Kessel's ES game the last few.

 

[Fordy]

You obviously aren't watching the same game I am if you have no issue with Kessel's ES game the last few.

no one is saying there's no issue there. they're saying they see the cause and it isn't kessel not giving a ****, because we've seen it happen too many times now

 

[Shady Machine]

no one is saying there's no issue there. they're saying they see the cause and it isn't kessel not giving a ****, because we've seen it happen too many times now

What they are saying is that it's all Kunitz' fault that Kessel is playing like crap.

Would that line be more effective with Hagelin or Rust instead of kunitz? Of course it would, but that doesn't excuse Kessel's play.

For me, it's not even just the effort. He's flubbing pucks, not getting any separation on defenders in open ice. Just really looking blah. Maybe he's tired after the long road trip. Maybe he's hurt or lacking confidence due to goal drought, but it's not all Chris Kunitz' fault.

Malkin is still playing damn well and creating all over the ice despite the anchor of Kunitz (and currently, the anchor of Kessel).

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I would say to give some of these guys a pass until the playoffs start. They have played more hockey than anyone else in the NHL the past year. And several have reputations of ... how shall we say it ... being only present on the ice in body only but not really playing for long stretches during the year ... but turning it on when April comes.

I for one will give them a pass and hope that they are doing just that. Plenty of time for criticism if they do not flip the switch soon. But if they do, good for them. It was smart not to wear themselves out in meaningless games.

 

[canadianguy77]

Crosby looked like garbage in the majority of the games that he had Kunitz flanking him too. It's not totally out of the question that some guys might start to get frustrated/disgruntled when a member of their line can't hold on to the puck, make a clean pass, or win a battle to keep possession alive.

 

[MrBurghundy]

What they are saying is that it's all Kunitz' fault that Kessel is playing like crap.

Would that line be more effective with Hagelin or Rust instead of kunitz? Of course it would, but that doesn't excuse Kessel's play.

For me, it's not even just the effort. He's flubbing pucks, not getting any separation on defenders in open ice. Just really looking blah. Maybe he's tired after the long road trip. Maybe he's hurt or lacking confidence due to goal drought, but it's not all Chris Kunitz' fault.

Malkin is still playing damn well and creating all over the ice despite the anchor of Kunitz (and currently, the anchor of Kessel).

Yeah, I'm 100% with everything you're saying. Kessel isn't doing the things he needs to do to be successful. It wouldn't matter who he's playing with right now. He's nowhere even close to the same guy we saw last year in the playoffs.

 

[Shady Machine]

Crosby looked like garbage in the majority of the games that he had Kunitz flanking him too. It's not totally out of the question that some guys might start to get frustrated/disgruntled when a member of their line can't hold on to the puck, make a clean pass, or win a battle to keep possession alive.

And then they start flubbing pucks themselves as a result? I'm not even a fan of Kunitz at all and I don't want him on that line, but some posters are really going out of their way to blame everyone else's individual issues on Kunitz.

Kunitz is a 4th liner that can occasionally remember his glory days with a nice pass (see his give and go with Geno last night). He shouldn't be playing with Sid and Geno and their line's success is obviously hurt by his presence there. Kessel, as a result, will be less effective. All of that is reasonable IMO. What's not reasonable is that I can't criticize Kessel's individual play without someone basically blaming it all on Kunitz.

All of that said, I am hopeful and even confident that Kessel will pick it back up in the playoffs. I just wish he'd start doing it a little sooner.

 

[Fordy]

What they are saying is that it's all Kunitz' fault that Kessel is playing like crap.

Would that line be more effective with Hagelin or Rust instead of kunitz? Of course it would, but that doesn't excuse Kessel's play.

For me, it's not even just the effort. He's flubbing pucks, not getting any separation on defenders in open ice. Just really looking blah. Maybe he's tired after the long road trip. Maybe he's hurt or lacking confidence due to goal drought, but it's not all Chris Kunitz' fault.

Malkin is still playing damn well and creating all over the ice despite the anchor of Kunitz (and currently, the anchor of Kessel).

so when crosby was with kunitz....

i mean i'm not gonna sit here and ****ing repeat everything you've been told already. when crosby was playing basically exactly like kessel when kunitz was on his line, was that crosby's fault? yes or no?

 

[Fordy]

And then they start flubbing pucks themselves as a result?

YES

I'm not even a fan of Kunitz at all and I don't want him on that line, but some posters are really going out of their way to blame everyone else's individual issues on Kunitz.

Kunitz is a 4th liner that can occasionally remember his glory days with a nice pass (see his give and go with Geno last night). He shouldn't be playing with Sid and Geno and their line's success is obviously hurt by his presence there. Kessel, as a result, will be less effective. All of that is reasonable IMO. What's not reasonable is that I can't criticize Kessel's individual play without someone basically blaming it all on Kunitz.

All of that said, I am hopeful and even confident that Kessel will pick it back up in the playoffs. I just wish he'd start doing it a little sooner.

how about you just wait until kunitz is off the line then (if ever) and then we can speculate as to what changed when he suddenly starts playing better?

 

[Shady Machine]

I just completely disagree that Crosby was playing nearly as badly as Kessel currently is. Plus Malkin, as I said earlier, is still playing great hockey despite Kunitz (and Kessel) dragging him down. He's the only reason that line isn't a total disaster.

But whatever, if you want to give Kessel a pass and blame it all on Kunitz, go right ahead.

 

[Pancakes]

Kessel has been poor even away from Kunitz.

 

[Shady Machine]

Kessel has been poor even away from Kunitz.

blasphemous.

 

[hooverdam]

I am not aware of any statistics tracking compete?
Please share what you believe to be saying I am wrong.

But it is true that I have been saying that Kessel is not really trying for most of the season. Whether he figures on the score sheet or not, I have seen a decidedly disappointing player 5 on 5. No matter his line mates.

There are no statistics tracking "compete" because you can make that up as you go. It's like "grit" and "heart" and "unicorns per 60". So arguing with you is pointless because you don't want to look at the tangible, factual evidence that Kessel is doing well with Hagelin and Malkin. You want to fall back on your own fairytale measure of something you cannot quantify, and we're just supposed to trust your superior eye test even compared to our own.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

And then they start flubbing pucks themselves as a result? I'm not even a fan of Kunitz at all and I don't want him on that line, but some posters are really going out of their way to blame everyone else's individual issues on Kunitz.

Kunitz is a 4th liner that can occasionally remember his glory days with a nice pass (see his give and go with Geno last night). He shouldn't be playing with Sid and Geno and their line's success is obviously hurt by his presence there. Kessel, as a result, will be less effective. All of that is reasonable IMO. What's not reasonable is that I can't criticize Kessel's individual play without someone basically blaming it all on Kunitz.

All of that said, I am hopeful and even confident that Kessel will pick it back up in the playoffs. I just wish he'd start doing it a little sooner.

Same. How many years did we hear complaints of his seeming disinterested and not noticable for long stretches of seasons. Then lighting it up in the playoffs. Bones as well. It almost is their thing now.

Unlike you, assuming that occurs again, I am not wishing that they did it sooner. They have played the entire regular season, plus 24 playoff games. That is 106 games.

And THEN a third of the team, all core players, played in the World Cup of Hockey. Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Olli Maatta, Patric Hornqvist and Carl Hagelin all played those games as well.

Add those up and I wish that most of the team were 'injured' for a third of the year at a spa resting up.

 

[Pancakes]

blasphemous.

Worth pointing out though that the only players Kessel has had a >50% CF with this season are Malkin and Scott Wilson (what?). Hags is close with 49%, and much of the Hags/Kessel combo was spent with Bonino as well so that probably hurt the Hags number.

To maximize Kessel at even strength it seems best to put him with Hagelin and Malkin this year, which matches what we're all seeing.

Kessel needs to play better himself though, as well.

 

[Shady Machine]

Worth pointing out though that the only players Kessel has had a >50% CF with this season are Malkin and Scott Wilson (what?). Hags is close with 49%, and much of the Hags/Kessel combo was spent with Bonino as well so that probably hurt the Hags number.

To maximize Kessel at even strength it seems best to put him with Hagelin and Malkin this year, which matches what we're all seeing.

Kessel needs to play better himself though, as well.

Agreed all around.

 

[Fordy]

I just completely disagree that Crosby was playing nearly as badly as Kessel currently is.

... because crosby is one of the best players of all time. but he was playing like garbage anyway. 1 million gdts can attest to it

Plus Malkin, as I said earlier, is still playing great hockey despite Kunitz (and Kessel) dragging him down. He's the only reason that line isn't a total disaster.

malkin is also one of the best players of all time... and i think the line IS a total disaster

But whatever, if you want to give Kessel a pass and blame it all on Kunitz, go right ahead.

will do

 

[steveg]

Agreed all around.

Kessel is NEVER injured. And I think there's a reason for that. Watching him play, my perspective FWIW is that he does not get involved physically -- board battles and such -- for a large portion of the season. And, consequently, other teams "lay off" of Kessel; they seem to "respect" that he does not usually play a physical style, and thus don't "target" him either. I NEVER see Kessel taking a big check; he's simply not targeted. Ever. There seems to be sort of a "gentleman's agreement" that he will not get too involved physically, and thus others will not engage him physically, for the most part. And thus, he stays healthy.

He DOES, though, turn it up in the playoffs. Not necessarily with hits/body checks, but his "compete" for puck battles -- using his body positionally and in particular his stick -- definitely increases in the post-season. And, given his production, I am fine with it. Each player brings something to the table; we have lots of "give 110%" players, who lack high-end hands and sniping ability, and the nifty playmaking ability that Kessel has. He brings something unique, and to me, that's part of what makes a team -- everyone has a role. I don't see a reason for us to expect him to be something he's not, considering that what he DOES bring is MOST welcome (and, presuming that each year he raises his "compete" along the boards during the playoffs as he consistently has).

Just my opinions.

 

[Fordy]

Kessel is NEVER injured. And I think there's a reason for that. Watching him play, my perspective FWIW is that he does not get involved physically -- board battles and such -- for a large portion of the season. And, consequently, other teams "lay off" of Kessel; they seem to "respect" that he does not usually play a physical style, and thus don't "target" him either. I NEVER see Kessel taking a big check; he's simply not targeted. Ever. There seems to be sort of a "gentleman's agreement" that he will not get too involved physically, and thus others will not engage him physically, for the most part. And thus, he stays healthy.

He DOES, though, turn it up in the playoffs. Not necessarily using his body, but his "compete" for puck battles -- using his body positionally and in particular his stick -- definitely increases in the post-season. And, given his production, I am fine with it. Each player brings something to the table; we have lots of "give 110%" players, who lack high-end hands and sniping ability, and the nifty playmaking ability that Kessel has. He brings something unique, and to me, that's part of what makes a team -- everyone has a role. I don't see a reason for us to expect him to be something he's not, considering that what he DOES bring is MOST welcome (and, presuming that each year he raises his "compete" along the boards during the playoffs as he consistently has).

Just my opinions.

i saw plenty of him using his body in the playoffs, including deep in his own end

this isn't his first year in the league people. i can't fathom why people don't get the formula here

 

[steveg]

i saw plenty of him using his body in the playoffs, including deep in his own end

this isn't his first year in the league people. i can't fathom why people don't get the formula here

I agree with you.

As for "using his body," IMO he still doesn't throw many checks, even in the post season, but he definitely increases substantially his "physical" play in the playoffs; he uses his body "positionally," shielding and blocking and things like that, during board battles, and as such he wins quite a few more post-season battles, to my eyes. But this is what he does, always has, and I am good with it. He's a big part of why this team has had the success they have over the past 15 months.

 

[steveg]

Different topic for a minute, if I may --

I missed most of the game last night; anyone have a brief assessment of Sundqvist last night? I thought he started to look more comfortable -- and made some plays -- after the first period of the Vancouver game; I was hoping he'd take another little step forward and play a decent game in Calgary. Any thoughts?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Beautiful.

 

[tbassett]

Beautiful.

this is fantastic. someone needs to photoshop kunitz face on there and change seating to playing

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Beautiful.

So I guess our playoff avatar there would be.

And speaking of which, we likely should start looking for a theme soon. We are less than a month from the last regular season game.