Fixing WWE

[sabremike]

I probably should have gotten back to you sooner on this but I just got done watching the first HIAC match between Taker and Michaels. It almost hurts that at any moment the product could be that good but because of PC purposes and Linda won't get out of politics, WWE refuses to.

edit: my responses are in bold in the quote

One problem that you stumbled on is the issue of gimmick matches. It feels like they use them as a crutch (particularly in the past few months where it felt like there was a ladder or cage match on WWE TV every single week). When you do that they mean nothing. Even worse is the abuse of gimmick matches with no sensible build. There should always be a point to why a gimmick is being used such as if a face keeps being on the verge of victory but the heels jump in or the heel walks out to keep his title it should build to a cage match (and yes, they have stupidly killed the cage gimmick by having people constantly interfere in them).

 

[These Are The Days]

One problem that you stumbled on is the issue of gimmick matches. It feels like they use them as a crutch (particularly in the past few months where it felt like there was a ladder or cage match on WWE TV every single week). When you do that they mean nothing. Even worse is the abuse of gimmick matches with no sensible build. There should always be a point to why a gimmick is being used such as if a face keeps being on the verge of victory but the heels jump in or the heel walks out to keep his title it should build to a cage match (and yes, they have stupidly killed the cage gimmick by having people constantly interfere in them).

I haven't paid attention in some time but I noticed that was a problem even as recently as a few years ago. It's gimmicks for the sake of gimmicks. I noticed once (I want to say it was like 2017) they broke out table and ladder for the first time in what felt like years and but of course ---TLC was that Sunday. But you are right though and it absolutely stupid. The booking has made zero sense of years

Not that my opinion was asked on the matter but this is my idea of booking

Vacant WWE title. 2 colossal babyfaces go at it in a best of 7. One vows he will do whatever it takes to win. Crowd pops for awesome lip service. You can easily afford 5 star matches the first 3 go arounds without any need for shenanigans. They're babyfaces they shake hands after the match. Well sure enough the one who vowed to do whatever it takes is down 2-1 and getting his ass whipped in match #4 and is literally about to go down 3-1 in the series. Turns full heel and wins the series in 6.

That booking makes sense

You have a monster heel you absolutely need to protect but build. You have a babyface under the same circumstance. Book a WWE title match that ends in a draw when neither man can get up at a 10 count. Bam. You just protected them both and had a realistic finish.

You book "Last Man standing" and you protect the loser of that contest by virtue that he simply lost too much blood and was passed out. Make a big scene with paramedics wheeling the loser out and talk about how "he needed blood transfusions"

To me that makes sense

You've got 4 guys competing for the United States championship... is a ladder match really that far-fetched in that situation?

To me that makes sense for a gimmick

Your reasoning for the cage match also makes sense to me although I'd probably prefer HIAC because -they can ruin cage matches too


I hate to say it but WWE just simply isn't trying anymore. Jim Cornette made a hell of a point. AEW is catching up not because of what a good product it is, but because WWE product has fallen so far.

 

[ColePens]

One problem that you stumbled on is the issue of gimmick matches. It feels like they use them as a crutch (particularly in the past few months where it felt like there was a ladder or cage match on WWE TV every single week). When you do that they mean nothing. Even worse is the abuse of gimmick matches with no sensible build. There should always be a point to why a gimmick is being used such as if a face keeps being on the verge of victory but the heels jump in or the heel walks out to keep his title it should build to a cage match (and yes, they have stupidly killed the cage gimmick by having people constantly interfere in them).

The gimmick match issue fixes itself if the WWE focuses on just telling stories that make sense and are written out for long term. It fixes itself.

Almost every single issue is fixed if they just focus on long-term stories and stick to them. Even if the story isn't the greatest and the fans aren't buying it... stay the course. Tell the story. Then move to the next. Keep the stories going.

And build layers from the stories. Multiple people can feud within 1 storyline.

 

[The Shadow]

I agree with these 5 eras as the greatest in history

Top 5 Eras of Professional Wrestling

I think the world has changed and wrestling will never reach the popularity of those eras

the internet may have been the demise of wrestling as there as so many more options for entertainment now

 

[JackSlater]

The gimmick match issue fixes itself if the WWE focuses on just telling stories that make sense and are written out for long term. It fixes itself.

Almost every single issue is fixed if they just focus on long-term stories and stick to them. Even if the story isn't the greatest and the fans aren't buying it... stay the course. Tell the story. Then move to the next. Keep the stories going.

And build layers from the stories. Multiple people can feud within 1 storyline.

The gimmick matches are an easy out for WWE but really you are correct about the stories. That is the reason that the attitude era was good. It didn't matter if a giant had sex with an old lady who birthed a hand or someone hit the boss in the head with a bedpan or someone squirted beer, milk, or some other drink on people. It mattered that the important wrestlers usually had a direction that you could follow and enjoy the twists, turns, and eventual payoff. It also mattered that the unimportant wrestlers often had their own stories or could at least get swept up into the larger storylines going on above them. Everyone has their lower card wrestlers they simply enjoy and you never know what unimportant wrestler will become important down the road. In the attitude era I wanted to see where things were going episode to episode and when thing were really good segment to segment. That's long gone.

WWE has made it so that nothing matters. The championships certainly don't matter, the stories don't matter, the matches don't matter. The company seems to want things to matter just because they are happening in the WWE but that isn't how things work.

 

[Jussi]

I agree with these 5 eras as the greatest in history

Top 5 Eras of Professional Wrestling

I think the world has changed and wrestling will never reach the popularity of those eras

the internet may have been the demise of wrestling as there as so many more options for entertainment now

I'd say that because of the internet, everyone knows almost everything about the wrestlers outside of the ring to a degree that their gimmicks or characters on tv are not that believable unless they're basically themselves. Also, it's harder to do long term storytelling because people don't have the patience (I realize that word is puzzling on this site) fro them but demand pay-off within weeks instead of months.

 

[ColePens]

I'd say that because of the internet, everyone knows almost everything about the wrestlers outside of the ring to a degree that their gimmicks or characters on tv are not that believable unless they're basically themselves. Also, it's harder to do long term storytelling because people don't have the patience (I realize that word is puzzling on this site) fro them but demand pay-off within weeks instead of months.

Is that your opinion or your take on their opinion? Because I'm looking at AEW audience for a brand new wrestling company and it looks to me like people love storytelling.

 

[Jussi]

Is that your opinion or your take on their opinion? Because I'm looking at AEW audience for a brand new wrestling company and it looks to me like people love storytelling.

People have different standards for them.

 

[Phil Parent]

1: Thin out the roster, stop signing wrestlers just to have them, you either got plans for them, or you don't.

2: Simplify production. Too many camera angle changes, everything is too sanitized, pasteurized and rehearsed.

3: Give the wrestlers more freedom for promos.

4: Less PPVs, they're no longer PPVs anyways. Go back to the big 4 plus something in June so that you get one in January / March-April / June / August / November

5: Base booking on crowd reactions, don't try to manufacture the crowd's reaction.

6: Ditch 50/50 booking. Build your top stars by making them win and keeping them away from one another so that when they have a match, it's a big deal.

7: Bring back managers to help those who struggle with promos. Modernize the concept. Heyman & MVP are a nice example.

8: Let wrestlers grow their brand on Twitch / Youtube / Instagram without interfering with it. People who start watching them because of whatever their interest is might just them follow them to your show!

9: Build the relationships & issues between the wrestlers to be more than "He jumped me backstage, so I hate him now." and "We have this nice talk, and we're friends now".

10: Have an offseason after WrestleMania so the wrestlers may rest and the creative team may have time to figure out the next year.

 

[sabremike]

I haven't paid attention in some time but I noticed that was a problem even as recently as a few years ago. It's gimmicks for the sake of gimmicks. I noticed once (I want to say it was like 2017) they broke out table and ladder for the first time in what felt like years and but of course ---TLC was that Sunday. But you are right though and it absolutely stupid. The booking has made zero sense of years

Not that my opinion was asked on the matter but this is my idea of booking

Vacant WWE title. 2 colossal babyfaces go at it in a best of 7. One vows he will do whatever it takes to win. Crowd pops for awesome lip service. You can easily afford 5 star matches the first 3 go arounds without any need for shenanigans. They're babyfaces they shake hands after the match. Well sure enough the one who vowed to do whatever it takes is down 2-1 and getting his ass whipped in match #4 and is literally about to go down 3-1 in the series. Turns full heel and wins the series in 6.

That booking makes sense

You have a monster heel you absolutely need to protect but build. You have a babyface under the same circumstance. Book a WWE title match that ends in a draw when neither man can get up at a 10 count. Bam. You just protected them both and had a realistic finish.

You book "Last Man standing" and you protect the loser of that contest by virtue that he simply lost too much blood and was passed out. Make a big scene with paramedics wheeling the loser out and talk about how "he needed blood transfusions"

To me that makes sense

You've got 4 guys competing for the United States championship... is a ladder match really that far-fetched in that situation?

To me that makes sense for a gimmick

Your reasoning for the cage match also makes sense to me although I'd probably prefer HIAC because -they can ruin cage matches too


I hate to say it but WWE just simply isn't trying anymore. Jim Cornette made a hell of a point. AEW is catching up not because of what a good product it is, but because WWE product has fallen so far.

Anyone who doesn't think AEW is a good wrestling product is completely out of touch and clueless regarding modern wrestling, which in fact sums up Corny nicely. WWE being awful just makes the contrast stand out even more.

 

[sabremike]

Two great things they should learn from Paul E.:

1) Accentuate the strengths and hide the weaknesses. For example if a guy is real good in the ring but weak with promos have him paired up with someone who can.

2) If it works, it works. If something or someone gets over even if you think it's "wrong", go with it.

 

[Jussi]

Two great things they should learn from Paul E.:

1) Accentuate the strengths and hide the weaknesses. For example if a guy is real good in the ring but weak with promos have him paired up with someone who can.

2) If it works, it works. If something or someone gets over even if you think it's "wrong", go with it.

They're doing exactly that with Hurt Business. MVP does the talking while others do most of the wrestling.

 

[JackSlater]

People have different standards for them.

That is very blatantly true. Rarely admitted though.

 

[Megahab]

I don't know how many of these would actually help WWE, but this is just a list of things I'd like to see:

-Get rid of the roster split. The roster is not deep for a split and having two top titles totally devalues them. One World Champion, IC champion, Tag titles, Women's title, and Women's tag titles.

-Less scripted, word-for-word promos.

-No cinematic matches.

-Show logos in the center of the ring.

-Get rid of themed PPVs like Hell in a Cell and TLC. Money in the Bank is fine.

-Hold the King of The Ring every year and use it to actually push a guy, not just to give him a king gimmick.

-Make the Andre The Giant battle royal mean something. It should be a big deal to win that match, just like a title win. But every winner has forgotten it about a week after winning.

-More managers/mouthpieces.

-Change the WWE title so that the background is gold, not black. That would improves its design 1000%. Also call it the WWE World Championship. I don't know why they got rid of the World in the name.

-Bring back the Ultimate Survivor match at Survivor Series. Make those matches mean something. Nobody cares about brand supremacy. Make it so that the Ultimate Survivors get a title shot.

-More tag teams. Most of the guys that they can find anything for should be thrown into tag teams with each other.

-Less PPV title rematches. I like it when the title challengers change every month. Feuds can continue without having to face each other at every PPV.

-Use Paul Heyman like they did with Bobby Heenan. Manage different guys all over the card, but not necessarily have them working together as a group. They were kind of doing this in 2013 with Heyman managing Lesnar, Punk, and Axel.

-Get rid of anyone that has written a comedy segment in the last 20 years.

-Reset Bray Wyatt back to his 2013 gimmick. He is too good in that role to be wasted. Can't believe it's been almost 8 years since he debuted and they still haven't figured it out.

-Maybe it's a money issue, but I'd like to see unique sets for each PPV.

-This is only during covid of course, but get rid of the Thunderdome virtual fans. It's so bad. To look at and to hear. Fake chants is the cringiest thing in the world, the second cringiest being the wrestlers that react to the fake chants. I think a small crowd like AEW has works so much better. But I have no idea if AEW and WWE are playing by different rules.

 

[sabremike]

That is very blatantly true. Rarely admitted though.

Please kindly explain

 

[JackSlater]

Please kindly explain

AEW does a ton of stupid crap, just as WWE does. It's newer though and people want it to succeed so it gets downplayed fairy often.

 

[Megahab]

AEW does a ton of stupid crap, just as WWE does. It's newer though and people want it to succeed so it gets downplayed fairy often.

I don't think AEW has done anything amazing, but they seem to have a lot less stupid crap than WWE does. I'm not saying AEW is better, but the worst of AEW is a lot better than the worst of WWE. Mind you I haven't seen everything from AEW, but what have they done that is so bad or something that just didn't make any logical sense?

 

[sabremike]

AEW does a ton of stupid crap, just as WWE does. It's newer though and people want it to succeed so it gets downplayed fairy often.

Have you considered that it might be because the few things AEW has done that didn't work are greatly outnumbered by things that worked in spectacular fashion whereas in WWE the overwhelming number of things they do are terrible and stupid with very few things that work?

 

[JackSlater]

I don't think AEW has done anything amazing, but they seem to have a lot less stupid crap than WWE does. I'm not saying AEW is better, but the worst of AEW is a lot better than the worst of WWE. Mind you I haven't seen everything from AEW, but what have they done that is so bad or something that just didn't make any logical sense?

AEW likely does less stupid crap, but I'm not sure that it isn't just a function of producing far less tv. Pretty much every attempt at comedy is cringe inducing, the women's division has been embarrassing even outside of everything Brandi has done, which is worse. Anything Orange Cassidy does. Pretty much everything around the Dark Order is inconsistent and poorly done outside of the initial vignettes, though I admit that I enjoy the faction for the novelty. Omega's presentation prior to this very recent run has been poor. The Inner Circle's recentish stuff has been not poor.

For specific segments, off the top of my head the stadium stampede match and the whole debut of Jade Cargill would have been ripped to shreds had they happened in WWE. The latter in particular was largely ripped, though I found some sort of perverse enjoyment in it, but it would have been another level had WWE done that.

Have you considered that it might be because the few things AEW has done that didn't work are greatly outnumbered by things that worked in spectacular fashion whereas in WWE the overwhelming number of things they do are terrible and stupid with very few things that work?

Oh yes, I didn't consider those obvious facts that you've given me in what was absolutely not the markiest wrestling related thing I've read in quite some time. I forgot that the things that AEW does not just well but spectacularly don't just outnumber the bad things, but greatly outnumber them. I also forgot that WWE is overwhelmingly terrible, stupid, caw caw, and just doesn't work.

 

[sabremike]

AEW likely does less stupid crap, but I'm not sure that it isn't just a function of producing far less tv. Pretty much every attempt at comedy is cringe inducing, the women's division has been embarrassing even outside of everything Brandi has done, which is worse. Anything Orange Cassidy does. Pretty much everything around the Dark Order is inconsistent and poorly done outside of the initial vignettes, though I admit that I enjoy the faction for the novelty. Omega's presentation prior to this very recent run has been poor. The Inner Circle's recentish stuff has been not poor.

For specific segments, off the top of my head the stadium stampede match and the whole debut of Jade Cargill would have been ripped to shreds had they happened in WWE. The latter in particular was largely ripped, though I found some sort of perverse enjoyment in it, but it would have been another level had WWE done that.



Oh yes, I didn't consider those obvious facts that you've given me in what was absolutely not the markiest wrestling related thing I've read in quite some time. I forgot that the things that AEW does not just well but spectacularly don't just outnumber the bad things, but greatly outnumber them. I also forgot that WWE is overwhelmingly terrible, stupid, caw caw, and just doesn't work.

Anyone who uses the term "mark" should cause everyone's eyeballs to roll into the back of their head. Orange Cassidy ended up as one of the most over guys in the entire promotion and a genuine star. And the one thing WWE did this entire year that was almost unanimously praised as awesome was... The Boneyard Match at Mania that was an awful lot like that Stadium Stampede match that was only praised by "marks" because it was in AEW.

 

[JackSlater]

Anyone who uses the term "mark" should cause everyone's eyeballs to roll into the back of their head. Orange Cassidy ended up as one of the most over guys in the entire promotion and a genuine star. And the one thing WWE did this entire year that was almost unanimously praised as awesome was... The Boneyard Match at Mania that was an awful lot like that Stadium Stampede match that was only praised by "marks" because it was in AEW.

I appreciate you doing your best to prove jussi's point on your own honestly. There's no doubt that AEW has its marks, just as wwe does, who are desperate to overrate the company. Out of a sense of desperation for a good wrestling promotion? Trying to be in on the ground floor of something? It simply tickles them in just the right way? Not sure. Anyway, Cassidy is absurd and there should be no doubt that if someone carried on his schtick in WWE it would be endlessly mocked. It is unfortunate whenever one of AEW's good wrestlers gets saddled with him. I'd also say that there is a big and quite obvious difference between the boneyard match and the stadium stampede, though neither was good.

 

[sabremike]

I appreciate you doing your best to prove jussi's point on your own honestly. There's no doubt that AEW has its marks, just as wwe does, who are desperate to overrate the company. Out of a sense of desperation for a good wrestling promotion? Trying to be in on the ground floor of something? It simply tickles them in just the right way? Not sure. Anyway, Cassidy is absurd and there should be no doubt that if someone carried on his schtick in WWE it would be endlessly mocked. It is unfortunate whenever one of AEW's good wrestlers gets saddled with him. I'd also say that there is a big and quite obvious difference between the boneyard match and the stadium stampede, though neither was good.

Yes, the Stadium Stampede match drew the most PPV buys for a non-WWE show in 20 years (Which is even more stunning because WWE essentially destroyed the PPV wrestling industry with the catastrophic blunder of putting them all on the network for a fraction of the cost).

 

[JackSlater]

Yes, the Stadium Stampede match drew the most PPV buys for a non-WWE show in 20 years (Which is even more stunning because WWE essentially destroyed the PPV wrestling industry with the catastrophic blunder of putting them all on the network for a fraction of the cost).

The Stampede did? The event did, not sure that that match in and of itself gets the credit for it even as the main event. I'll give credit where it's due though, I did enjoy elements of it in the same sense that I enjoy eating too many cherry blasters from time to time. I might have liked a tighter version of it. As for WWE and PPVs... yeah, that's very clearly true. Very stupid and short-sighted decision.

 

[ColePens]

Regarding the gimmick matches. If a story is good enough, the gimmick matches aren't even that bad. Look at NXT and War Games.

 

[kanuck87]

Ugh, how about no more Legend nights.