OT: Fitness and Nutrition Part V

[DramaticGloveSave]

You take the name of the book, and claim it as a universal acceptance...
https://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100660

Then you throw a petty lame macho insult and expect me to spend much time engaging in a half decent discussion with you? Lol.
Sure man, I ''surrender''.

I'm referring to the study the book focused on? The study and the book are 2 different things.

And ya, if you use a dismissive facepalm emoji you're going to get a petty lame macho insult lol

 

[Kriss E]

I'm referring to the study the book focused on? The study and the book are 2 different things.

And ya, if you use a dismissive facepalm emoji you're going to get a petty lame macho insult lol

Again, you used the title of a book and claimed it to be a universal fact.

You did not address anything, you appeal to authority, belittle a blogger, who also wrote a book that you probably fully agree with btw, use the title of a book as a fact, no shit I will use a dismissive emoji. Didn't realize they got under your skin so badly you're just focused on ''getting me to surrender''.

 

[Kriss E]

Funny coming from the guy who refuses to acknowledge any of the facts presented.

1- Animal protein feeds cancer cells
2- Vegetable proteins kill cancer cells
3- Natural animal hormones block human insulin receptors.
4- Who knows what the added hormones and antibiotics do to you
5- Casein, the main protein in cow's milk is highly toxic to humans.
6- The "human canine tooth" debunk, many animals have a "canine tooth" including cows.
7- The vitamin B12 vegan debunk.
8- The biggest,strongest, longest living land mammals are "Vegans".
9 - Humans have the jaws and digestive systems that belong to the Herbivore category.

These are the facts that i have presented so far that you have chosen to ignore and just laugh at me.

I have many more facts and questions for you after you are done with those.

You realize Okinawans eat some animal protein right?

 

[Cobra Commander]

You realize Okinawans eat some animal protein right?

Great deflection job once again, you have no valid arguments.

Okinawans.. Sure thing i will trust you on that one. Now can you address the Facts that were just presented to you? Is you not acknowledging them your way of saying you know they are all true?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Again, you used the title of a book and claimed it to be a universal fact.

You did not address anything, you appeal to authority, belittle a blogger, who also wrote a book that you probably fully agree with, use the title of a book as a fact, no **** I will use a dismissive emoji. Didn't realize they got under your skin so badly you're just focused on ''getting me to surrender''.

lol

The book was called The China Study. They follow that title and call it the most comprehensive human study on nutrition ever conducted, because it is.

It's like if you wrote a book on the album "Thriller" and called the book "Thrilled: The best selling album ever made".

I'm not even talking about the book, I'm talking about the study....

 

[Cobra Commander]

lol

The book was called The China Study. They follow that title and call it the most comprehensive human study on nutrition ever conducted, because it is.

It's like if you wrote a book on the album "Thriller" and called the book "Thrilled: The best selling album ever made".

I'm not even talking about the book, I'm talking about the study....

He lives in China but knows nothing about Chinese Veganism.

 

[Kriss E]

Great deflection job once again, you have no valid arguments.

Okinawans.. Sure thing i will trust you on that one. Now can you address the Facts that were just presented to you? Is you not acknowledging them your way of saying you know they are all true?

So the longest living human beings on the planet eat some animal proteins....Uh, go figure. Maybe it's not THAT evil after all..?
What about the northern populations that have high animal protein diets and yet, very little heart diseases or western man cancer?
You are a sensationalist. There is nothing to address. You saw a couple movies that had the exact same bias, and just repeat the things you heard over and over again.
You're not objective in the least, you are the typical vegan, just loud, repetitive, unimaginative, and sensitive. The same style of arguments, not willing to concede that some animal protein is totally fine, just want to demonize it. Purposely refusing to seperate a deep fried hot dog with a top quality meat or fish.
You demonstrate zero intent in discussing things like a semi intelligent human being, so I won't waste much more of my time on you. Was entertaining at first, now it's just lame.

To make it even clearer, there is merit to more plant based eating, more fruits, no factory farming and less meat consumption. But NO, meat/animal proteins is not this evil product that should be eradicated from our diets.

 

[Kriss E]

lol

The book was called The China Study. They follow that title and call it the most comprehensive human study on nutrition ever conducted, because it is.

It's like if you wrote a book on the album "Thriller" and called the book "Thrilled: The best selling album ever made".

I'm not even talking about the book, I'm talking about the study....

Which would be an opinion, not a fact.

 

[Kriss E]

He lives in China but knows nothing about Chinese Veganism.

I live in Hong Kong, not China, there is a difference, but hey, ignorance is your forte.

 

[Cobra Commander]

So the longest living human beings on the planet eat some animal proteins....Uh, go figure. Maybe it's not THAT evil after all..?
What about the northern populations that have high animal protein diets and yet, very little heart diseases or western man cancer?
You are a sensationalist. There is nothing to address. You saw a couple movies that had the exact same bias, and just repeat the things you heard over and over again.
You're not objective in the least, you are the typical vegan, just loud, repetitive, unimaginative, and sensitive. The same style of arguments, not willing to concede that some animal protein is totally fine, just want to demonize it. Purposely refusing to seperate a deep fried hot dog with a top quality meat or fish.
You demonstrate zero intent in discussing things like a semi intelligent human being, so I won't waste much more of my time on you. Was entertaining at first, now it's just lame.

To make it even clearer, there is merit to more plant based eating, more fruits, no factory farming and less meat consumption. But NO, meat/animal proteins is not this evil product that should be eradicated from our diets.

You can go ahead and eat anything you want. You can go ahead and eat animal products in moderation if you wish, it doesn't mean because you moderate that they are not harmfull to your body. Cigarettes are still bad for you in moderation.

Now since you are still ignoring all the facts i will take it that you are conceding.

If you wanna drop it right now we can.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Which would be an opinion, not a fact.

I don't think you are aware of the massive scope of this study, it was a 20 year joint effort study conducted by Cornell and Oxford across 65 counties within China. The study they created included 367 variables and had more than 8,000 statistically significant associations between lifestyle, diet, and disease variables. That is why it is regarded as the most comprehensive study ever conducted. But by all means, find a more comprehensive study and post it (hint: you won't).

 

[Kriss E]

You can go ahead and eat anything you want. You can go ahead and eat animal products in moderation if you wish, it doesn't mean because you moderate that they are not harmfull to your body. Cigarettes are still bad for you in moderation.

Now since you are still ignoring all the facts i will take it that you are conceding.

If you wanna drop it right now we can.

The day you can differentiate this:

With this:

You can start discussing more objectively.

 

[Cobra Commander]

The day you can differentiate this:

With this:

You can start discussing more objectively.

This first picture is just pure garbage.

The meat you have in that bowl contains proteins that feed cancer cells. It also has natural hormones that block human insulin receptors. We don't know what other hormones and chemicals it contains.

But you are free to eat it, it's all good, it's your body, knock yourself out. But let's not pretend it isn't cancerous and doesn't block you up in multiple ways.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't think you are aware of the massive scope of this study, it was a 20 year joint effort study conducted by Cornell and Oxford across 65 counties within China. The study they created included 367 variables and had more than 8,000 statistically significant associations between lifestyle, diet, and disease variables. That is why it is regarded as the most comprehensive study ever conducted. But by all means, find a more comprehensive study and post it (hint: you won't).

I'm not going to repeat myself 20 times man.
All good.

 

[Kriss E]

This first picture is just pure garbage.

The meat you have in that bowl contains proteins that feed cancer cells. It also has natural hormones that block human insulin receptors. We don't know what other hormones and chemicals it contains.

So one is garbage and the other is cancer. Cool.
You said your peace, time to move on.

 

[Cobra Commander]

So one is garbage and the other is cancer. Cool.
You said your peace, time to move on.

Fine let's move on.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Maybe we can talk about what a bunch of BS the keto diet is lol

 

[DAChampion]

I'm referring to the study the book focused on? The study and the book are 2 different things.

And ya, if you use a dismissive facepalm emoji you're going to get a petty lame macho insult lol

As far as I know, the China Study does represent a good argument for decreased meat consumption. One advantage that would be very difficult to replicate in the west is that the period under study was mostly before the current economic boom, and thus before the current onset of wheat and sugar. Since the period looked at in the China study, processed carbohydrate consumption has exploded in China, and disease rates have gone up and a lot. It would be difficult to replicate that study today, as there would now be additional variables confounding the data.

Within the western countries, meat consumption is typically coupled with processed carbohydrates. For example, a hamburger is paired with a white bread bun, French fries, Coca Cola, and ketchup. That makes it very difficult to assess if the hamburger itself is bad for you, as the person eating a vegan burger would be doing just as badly. The China study in contrast probably didn't have that coupling, since sugar had not yet taken off there.

As Dr. Jason Fung has noted, the Chinese had low rates of type-II diabetes on their historic diet of white (not brown) rice. It went up once white sugar was imported from the west.

************

What is a confounding however, is that Asians are adapted to better digest soy. East Asians are more likely to have the gut bacteria to convert the soy isoflavone daidzein into s-equol.

S-equol has many wonderful effects on the body. It binds to and thus neutralizes dihydrotestosterone, which can reduce hair loss, reduce benign prostatic hyperplasia, slow down prostate cancer. In fact, the drugs for those conditions often use the same mechanism. S-equol also binds to the estrogen-beta receptor, which gives it other benefits such as relieving hot flashes.

It's a regional dietary adaptation, not unlike the eskimos and animal protein, white people and lactose, etc. To go into greater detail, the eskimos are much more efficient at converting animal protein into glucose, and white people are more likely to have the lactase enzyme.

If you're an equal producer, you should probably eat soy on a regular basis.

Maybe we can talk about what a bunch of BS the keto diet is lol

The keto diet has helped a lot of people.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

My basic understanding of the keto diet is that it isn't necessary for those who want to stay in shape or even for weight loss, but it can be a great tool for individuals who suffer from type 2 diabetes and have to minimize carbs as much as possible. Sure as hell helped my mother, went from having type 2 to showing no symptoms within a six month period. One can use it as part of a weight loss program to an extent, but it will still come down to one's ability to intake/outake calories while exercising, thus making the diet almost a non-factor within itself for otherwise healthy individuals.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

My basic understanding of the keto diet is that it isn't necessary for those who want to stay in shape or even for weight loss, but it can be a great tool for individuals who suffer from type 2 diabetes and have to minimize carbs as much as possible. Sure as hell helped my mother, went from having type 2 to showing no symptoms within a six month period. One can use it as part of a weight loss program to an extent, but it will still come down to one's ability to intake/outake calories while exercising, thus making the diet almost a non-factor within itself for otherwise healthy individuals.

Ya that's what's I'm referring to.

 

[Andrei79]

The meat you have in that bowl contains proteins that feed cancer cells.

Citation needed.

It also has natural hormones that block human insulin receptors.

Citation needed.

 

[DAChampion]

You realize Okinawans eat some animal protein right?

The original link between the Okinawan diet and their healthy lifestyle ignored the following factors:

- They eat a lot of sea life such as squid;
- They eat a lot of pig fat, most of their stews involved large quantities of lard;
- They don't eat the same vegetables/starches as in the west, so it was never a good argument for western veganism. Their staples included purple sweet potatoes, seaweed, etc.

***

I think that you also mentioned the eskimos on a previous post. They're not a good argument for a high-meat diet. First, they have special physiological adaptations that make them more efficient at consuming animal protein, their bodies do a great job of converting animal protein into glucose, and they conversely have a very hard time entering ketosis. They also didn't eat the same meats that we eat: they ate meats like seal, whale, caribou, etc. and practiced whole animal butchery which gets them a lot of micronutrients that can only be found in organ meat. Finally, they weren't as healthy as people originally claimed.

Here's a good discussion of the Inuit:
Masai and Inuit High-Protein Diets: A Closer Look
They did autopsies and it turns out that they did have heart disease.

You should not. believe claims that this or that tribe (Okinawa, Inuit, Tarahumara, Masai, etc) ate a weird diet and thus had low rates of heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, etc. I've actually heard people say that the Inuit did not have any heart disease, cancer, or Alzheimer's because of their diet -- that's absurd. Everybody eventually dies.

It turns out that the Inuit actually had low life expectancy, high heart disease rates, and bone problems.

 

[DAChampion]

Citation needed.



Citation needed.

I'm tired and lying on a couch, so I won't be as rigorous as you like, but, ...

If you read chapter 79 of Guyton's Physiology, you'll read that insulin does more than transport glucose into cells, it also transports potassium, phosphorus, and a few amino acids such as leucine and lysine. Those are the amino acids which are found in greater number in animal protein, and it is thus not surprising that animal protein gives a greater insulin spike, on average:

Whey protein is particularly bad:

Here's a long summary:
Insulin Index - Hormonal Obesity XXIII - Intensive Dietary Management (IDM)

Leucine, which is more commonly present in meat, activates mTor signaling independently of insulin:
The actions of exogenous leucine on mTOR signalling and amino acid transporters in human myotubes

If you have mTor signaling on all the time, you decrease autophagy, which may increase your odds of cancer in the long run.

**********

This is by itself not a good argument to "eliminate animal protein", but it does suggest that prolonged periods without animal protein are beneficial.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I think Cobra was likely referring to the rat study conducted by Cornell University that's discussed in Forks Over Knives where they were literally able to turn cancer on and off in rats just by adjusting their animal protein consumption. This was actually the study that led to the Cornell-Oxford-China Project FYI.

 

[DAChampion]

I finally got around to reading this study:
Intermittent fasting promotes adipose thermogenesis and metabolic homeostasis via VEGF-mediated alternative activation of macrophage
Intermittent fasting promotes adipose thermogenesis and metabolic homeostasis via VEGF-mediated alternative activation of macrophage

Their main result, achieved with multiple supporting arguments, is that a lot of the advantages of intermittent are due to increased metabolism which is caused by the browning of white adipose fat, which is caused by increased VEGF expression in white adipose fat, as the ratio of M2:M1 macrophages increases. A similar process as might happen when exposed to cold temperatures or through extensive exercises.

They had four groups of mice following two different diets and two different eating schedules. Half the mice ate for two days and fasted for 1 day while keeping total calories fixed. That's easier to arrange in micr than in humans. The mice that fasted ended up lighter regardless of what they ate, and the difference was in fat mass, as the lean mass did not change. The fasting mice had better scores on glucose tolerance, insulin tolerance, homa-IR, and liver function.

The increased metabolism is most pronounced on eating days, which was monitored using calorimetry and the rate of oxygen consumption. They could suppress the advantages of fasting by two thirds by raising the ambient temperature to 30 celsius (86 Fahrenheit).

They did a genetic analysis of gene expression and found that a lot of the genes affected by fasting are associated with the immune system and inflammation. I wonder if that explains why a lot of people with auto-immune conditions do particularly well with fasting.

To test their VGEF model, they got some mice for which this pathway is suppressed, I think (Page 8). Fasting exhibited no benefit for those mice.

Here's an H&E stained section photograph and a toy diagram of the process that they may have identified, from their Figures 1 and 7, in the first one you subcutaneous see white adipose fat, visceral adipose fat, and brown fat:
[see attached]

This is, in my opinion, a good study on why fasting yields metabolic benefits, as they kept total calories fixed and did a good job of isolating a single variable.

tldr; For the people who like the simplified "calories in, calories out" model, they can think of it this way: fasting increases calories out, by making it easier for body fat to be converted into energy.