OT: Fitness and Nutrition Part V

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Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
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Jeddah
So I kind of surprised myself yesterday with the calculation of the lethal dose of spinach. Maybe someone can go over the numbers and show that I might be off by a factor of 10.

1) Lethal dose of oxalic acid is 15-30 grams:
OXALIC ACID - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database

2) 100 grams of spinach contains 750 mg of oxalic acid, which is among the highest levels for green vegetables:
Oxalates In Spinach - Is Oxalic Acid A Green Smoothie Health Concern? - DavyandTracy.com
So you need roughly ~2 kg or 5 lbs of spinach to get the lethal dose of 15 grams.

3) 100 grams of spinach contains 23 calories:
Spinach, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories
So the lethal dose of spinach corresponds to ~460 calories of spinach, or roughly ~20% of your daily calories, which coincidentally is about the toxic dose of casein protein tested in the rat study cited by the movie Forks Over Knives.

I don't know anybody who eats that much spinach, other than Popeye and his muscles can handle the oxalic acid. However, this does suggest that the "green smoothie" and "green juice" trend might eventually cost some lives, as they do become toxic at high doses. It seems like you would die if you got most of your calories from greens.

Oxalic acid is famous for historically. In world war II, the people in the UK consumed a lot of rhubarb (which is hard to find where I live) as it was available. A lot of them eventually died, as oxalic acid poisoning built up in their body. It's why the rhubarb leaves are typically removed from the stalks in supermarkets, because they're associated with those deaths, though the toxic dose is in fact very high. I didn't know about this until recently. A while back I brought a strawberry-rhubarb pie to a party which included some kids, a mother asked me if I removed "the toxic part of the rhubarb", I had no idea what she meant so I got scared watching the kids running around, and didn't serve the pie. I looked it up after. It turns out that the supermarkets remove that part for you, and it would take a ridiculously high dose regardless.

Apparently some people are also getting kidney stones from eating too much spinach:
Green Smoothie: Toxic Oxalate Crystals (Jan 2015) Townsend Letter, Alternative Medicine Magazine
So that's pretty interesting. We all associate green vegetables with healthy food. They're definitely healthy. But it looks like they're truly, horrifyingly toxic if eaten in large doses.

Though I hope that somebody checks my arithmetic. I was elite at arithmetic growing up, but now I'm old.

It is also counterintuitive, but it does look like the juicing trend popular among vegans and others may in fact be unhealthy if done long-term or done incorrectly. People do great on it so there's probably a way or multiple ways to do it correctly.
To be honest, we don't need studies on everything to know too much of it will harm you. There are too many of them, always contradicting ones available, which leads to confusion more than anything else.
You can get water intoxication leading to serious health complications. We are talking about freaking water here. Too much of any food can lead to some issues.
Heck, exercising too much can also lead to serious health complications as well.

That is why I find it remarkably amusing reading or hearing people talk about how they have to cut this or that food.
If you were a meat eater, went vegan, and now you feel just swell, that's actually good. Anybody that feels better is great. Except the problem probably wasn't eating animal protein, it was eating too much of it and likely not getting enough portions of veggies/fruits, which lead to lower micros, and therefore you felt worse.
From an ethical/moral point of view, I totally understand if one wants to cut it out. It is the only intelligent argument for complete elimination of it.
Otherwise, eating your steak with some broccoli at home is totally fine, treating yourself to a chocolate or ice cream, and eating the odd pizza, is entirely fine.
Of course, if you eat pizza 4x per week, with chocolate chip cookies that you dip in a pint of milk as dessert, then no shit it's going to lead to unhealthy findings. Hey, it's animal protein man...That shit will kill ya! :facepalm:

The fact so many vegans and documentaries cannot find it in themselves to seperate or simply acknowledge this is just astonishing to me.

"Eating animal protein will cause cancer"...Ya..."Drinking too much water can kill you"..Also, as you pointed out..."Eating too much spinach will also do serious damage". All statements are correct. All of these statements are also completely stupid if your response is to eliminate all those food, which would lead to a very quick death.
Eliminating any food source is not the answer to superior health.
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,794
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Anybody have advice for maintaining or increasing muscle mass while following a ketogenic diet? It's been having the desired effect in terms of weight loss but working out is quite difficult without the carbs to recover. I eat plenty of protein and veggies as well as high fat foods like avocado,cheese, butter and creams. No sugar and under 20g of net carbs a day.

Appreciate any helpful recommendations.

Impossible to answer without knowing your program and your current diet. Further, your ability to gain muscle depends on your frame. The larger your frame, the easier it is for you to put on muscle, and that's independent of your diet and exercise regimen.

Assuming that you're in an otherwise good position and are training properly, you will need to add some calories. I recommend adding them in and during meals rather than as snacks between meals, as human growth hormone is secreted in between meals and you can shut that off with snacking.

Some foods to consider adding:

- Chia seed pudding, add unsweetened peanut butter, cocoa powder;
- Spike your high-fat, low-sugar yogurts with flaxseed or hemp seeds;
- Large containers of mixed tree nuts, take a small handful a day;
- White fish, or fresh oily fish like salmon if it's available near you;
- Fermented tofu if you can find it;
- Include some goat's cheese if you're only eating cheese from cows. Goat dairy has a different mix of fatty acids;

Some of these will temporarily kick you out of ketosis, so you should monitor that. If you can go up to ~50 grams of carbs a day, then consider doing so.
 
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CauZuki

Registered User
Feb 19, 2008
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12,171
Impossible to answer without knowing your program and your current diet. Further, your ability to gain muscle depends on your frame. The larger your frame, the easier it is for you to put on muscle, and that's independent of your diet and exercise regimen.

Assuming that you're in an otherwise good position and are training properly, you will need to add some calories. I recommend adding them in and during meals rather than as snacks between meals, as human growth hormone is secreted in between meals and you can shut that off with snacking.

Some foods to consider adding:

- Chia seed pudding, add unsweetened peanut butter, cocoa powder;
- Spike your high-fat, low-sugar yogurts with flaxseed or hemp seeds;
- Large containers of mixed tree nuts, take a small handful a day;
- White fish, or fresh oily fish like salmon if it's available near you;
- Fermented tofu if you can find it;
- Include some goat's cheese if you're only eating cheese from cows. Goat dairy has a different mix of fatty acids;

Some of these will temporarily kick you out of ketosis, so you should monitor that. If you can go up to ~50 grams of carbs a day, then consider doing so.

Thanks for the information , definitely already into the goat cheese , always been a big fan.
Mixed tree nuts I already do , unsalted of course and still count my carbs with those.
I make these flaxseed bars that are very nice with a bit of Dark chocolate (75%).
I'll look into some pudding recipes , that sounds pretty good.

It may also be worth mentionning that I am doing clean Keto , where I count my macronutrients and my only "cheat days" are every 2 weeks , where I go to A&W and have a double burger with lettuce instead of bread and no ketchup.

Thanks again!
 
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SquiddFX

#Seanski
Dec 16, 2013
7,874
3,041
Montreal
So I kind of surprised myself yesterday with the calculation of the lethal dose of spinach. Maybe someone can go over the numbers and show that I might be off by a factor of 10.

1) Lethal dose of oxalic acid is 15-30 grams:
OXALIC ACID - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database

2) 100 grams of spinach contains 750 mg of oxalic acid, which is among the highest levels for green vegetables:
Oxalates In Spinach - Is Oxalic Acid A Green Smoothie Health Concern? - DavyandTracy.com
So you need roughly ~2 kg or 5 lbs of spinach to get the lethal dose of 15 grams.

3) 100 grams of spinach contains 23 calories:
Spinach, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories
So the lethal dose of spinach corresponds to ~460 calories of spinach, or roughly ~20% of your daily calories, which coincidentally is about the toxic dose of casein protein tested in the rat study cited by the movie Forks Over Knives.

I don't know anybody who eats that much spinach, other than Popeye and his muscles can handle the oxalic acid. However, this does suggest that the "green smoothie" and "green juice" trend might eventually cost some lives, as they do become toxic at high doses. It seems like you would die if you got most of your calories from greens.

Oxalic acid is famous for historically. In world war II, the people in the UK consumed a lot of rhubarb (which is hard to find where I live) as it was available. A lot of them eventually died, as oxalic acid poisoning built up in their body. It's why the rhubarb leaves are typically removed from the stalks in supermarkets, because they're associated with those deaths, though the toxic dose is in fact very high. I didn't know about this until recently. A while back I brought a strawberry-rhubarb pie to a party which included some kids, a mother asked me if I removed "the toxic part of the rhubarb", I had no idea what she meant so I got scared watching the kids running around, and didn't serve the pie. I looked it up after. It turns out that the supermarkets remove that part for you, and it would take a ridiculously high dose regardless.

Apparently some people are also getting kidney stones from eating too much spinach:
Green Smoothie: Toxic Oxalate Crystals (Jan 2015) Townsend Letter, Alternative Medicine Magazine
So that's pretty interesting. We all associate green vegetables with healthy food. They're definitely healthy. But it looks like they're truly, horrifyingly toxic if eaten in large doses.

Though I hope that somebody checks my arithmetic. I was elite at arithmetic growing up, but now I'm old.

It is also counterintuitive, but it does look like the juicing trend popular among vegans and others may in fact be unhealthy if done long-term or done incorrectly. People do great on it so there's probably a way or multiple ways to do it correctly.

ETA: This pro-juicing article suggests celery and boy choy as greens low in oxalic acid: 10 Green Smoothie Myths Debunked - dummies
I have not checked if they're actually low, but if so that's helpful. Celery tastes really nice when juiced (which I find surprising), and Bok Choy is among the yummiest greens for sautéing.

Wikipedia has a list of all the vegetables that contain oxalic acid with their approximate g/100g levels.

Oxalic acid - Wikipedia

Interesting stuff.
 

DramaticGloveSave

Voice of Reason
Apr 17, 2017
14,600
13,279
Apparently that Thor guy eats spinach by the garbage bag full, but he's about twice the size of an average person.
 

Paddyjack

Registered User
Dec 10, 2007
2,920
3,219
Sherbrooke
Funny coming from the guy who refuses to acknowledge any of the facts presented.

1- Animal protein feeds cancer cells
2- Vegetable proteins kill cancer cells

This is NOT a fact. I work in the field of cancer, I'm actually a research scientist and I'm sorry but this is not true. I guess you based this fact on that study with rats?? Read more about it please, it was debunked. This comes up here from time to time because we do in vivo experiments with animals when we discuss about appropriate controls but it is quickly waved off. So if you put much weight on this as facts, it means you like it because that fits your story and so it makes the rest of your points less credible.

On a another topic however this will interest most of you. We have known for years there was a link between obesity and prostate cancer but here is maybe one good answer at the metabolic and genetic levels.: Study finds how fat tissue shunts energy to prostate tumors
Study finds how fat tissue shunts energy to prostate tumors | SBP

This was published in Cancer cells, a highly regarded journal on cancer studies, of impact factor 23. For those who do not know about that, it is very high. Original article here:
Adipocyte p62/SQSTM1 Suppresses Tumorigenesis through Opposite Regulations of Metabolism in Adipose Tissue and Tumor. - PubMed - NCBI
 
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Paddyjack

Registered User
Dec 10, 2007
2,920
3,219
Sherbrooke
Plants breath in what we breath out. But no, they don't have brains, or sentience, or feel pain, or have central nervous systems... honestly of all the excuses meat eaters come up with, this has to be the absolute dumbest...

If you think I was using that as an argument rather than being sarcastic to cows being good pets, well I don't know what to say.

But btw, even if I find the idea of cows being good pets silly, at least I will give you the moral reason not to kill them for food if you care that much ;)
 
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DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,794
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This is NOT a fact. I work in the field of cancer, I'm actually a research scientist and I'm sorry but this is not true. I guess you based this fact on that study with rats?? Read more about it please, it was debunked. This comes up here from time to time because we do in vivo experiments with animals when we discuss about appropriate controls but it is quickly waved off. So if you put much weight on this as facts, it means you like it because that fits your story and so it makes the rest of your points less credible.

On a another topic however this will interest most of you. We have known for years there was a link between obesity and prostate cancer but here is maybe one good answer at the metabolic and genetic levels.: Study finds how fat tissue shunts energy to prostate tumors
Study finds how fat tissue shunts energy to prostate tumors | SBP

This was published in Cancer cells, a highly regarded journal on cancer studies, of impact factor 23. For those who do not know about that, it is very high. Original article here:
Adipocyte p62/SQSTM1 Suppresses Tumorigenesis through Opposite Regulations of Metabolism in Adipose Tissue and Tumor. - PubMed - NCBI

Wow, we have a lot of experts here.

What about the association between baldness and prostate cancer? Do you think that this ties in or is it totally separate? I think that obviously implies a different distribution of androgen receptors not just on top of a bald person's head, but throughout their body. Bald men also tend to have lower levels of SHBG.

My dad went bald in his 30s and died of prostate cancer at age 77. He was decently athletic throughout his life, and ate a diet with a lot of dates, olive oil, watermelon, pistachios, and tomatoes. In his last few years, he became militantly anti-dairy. In hindsight that is almost certainly because he was fighting the prostate cancer that he wasn't telling us about, and reading a lot of articles on the issue.
 

Mrb1p

PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Dec 10, 2011
88,590
54,689
Citizen of the world
Wow, we have a lot of experts here.

What about the association between baldness and prostate cancer? Do you think that this ties in or is it totally separate? I think that obviously implies a different distribution of androgen receptors not just on top of a bald person's head, but throughout their body. Bald men also tend to have lower levels of SHBG.

My dad went bald in his 30s and died of prostate cancer at age 77. He was decently athletic throughout his life, and ate a diet with a lot of dates, olive oil, watermelon, pistachios, and tomatoes. In his last few years, he became militantly anti-dairy. In hindsight that is almost certainly because he was fighting the prostate cancer that he wasn't telling us about, and reading a lot of articles on the issue.

Doesnt sound good for baldie at 18 over here.
 

philipsson

Registered User
Jan 12, 2014
353
357
It's a leap of faith to make, but once you make it, you'll never look back. It's a better diet for the environment (food/land/water usage, climate change), animals, and you'll see health benefits as well (weight loss, acne disappears, more energy, better sleep, lower risk factor for cancer, stroke, and heart disease...).

The hardest part is figuring what to eat, but once you figure it out, it becomes easy and the figuring it out can be a fun food adventure in itself.

Judging from the last 6-7 pages, I would say the hardest part seems to be making the decision of going vegan and keeping it to yourself instead of trying to shove your opinions/life choices in people's throat. I use to read that thread a whole lot and now all I see is this useless debate. Arguing to death like that might be a whole lot worse for health than eating meat.

(Not attacking you, it's more about cobracommander. You had civilized arguments before.)
 
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DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,794
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Doesnt sound good for baldie at 18 over here.

Here's a good (re: unfortunate) summary article on the two recent studies:
“Fallout” from New Study: Men with Early Balding May Be at Higher Risk of Aggressive Prostate Cancer - PCF

Talk about it with a doctor. Stay thin. Maybe get your PSA count checked more regularly than typical. Urinary problems sometimes manifest as an early indicator. But really, at some point, talk to an actual expert and ask them what they think.
 
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GlassesJacketShirt

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
11,434
4,190
Sherbrooke
Rhetorical question in all likelihood, but I've been having a sore ass throat since Saturday night. Not sure if it was the cold or the beer Peel Pub served (I would not recommend that place), but alas I've been eating light in the past few days on top of the intermittent fasting. Until I have clarity as to how serious it is, any recommendations for diets or exercise? Not sure I want to head to the gym for that kind of intense workout with this.

Any pointers would be much appreciated!
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
Rhetorical question in all likelihood, but I've been having a sore ass throat since Saturday night. Not sure if it was the cold or the beer Peel Pub served (I would not recommend that place), but alas I've been eating light in the past few days on top of the intermittent fasting. Until I have clarity as to how serious it is, any recommendations for diets or exercise? Not sure I want to head to the gym for that kind of intense workout with this.

Any pointers would be much appreciated!
Sweating is good, so going for one when you are sick is okay. You sweat out toxins.
For diets, get your micros in. You can take a bit of cinnamon and honey too.
 
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