Fire Ken Holland Thread

[FunkyChicken]

Hard to believe he's done nothing yet.
The time to buy cheap was this summer, now you're going to pay a premium.
It may already be too late to turn the season around, but if you're going to do something it needed to be done yesterday. Otherwise, might as well prep for next season.

 

[Soundwave]

Hard to believe he's done nothing yet.
The time to buy cheap was this summer, now you're going to pay a premium.
It may already be too late to turn the season around, but if you're going to do something it needed to be done yesterday. Otherwise, might as well prep for next season.

I doubt he has much authority to do anything at this point. It's pretty obvious he's basically just advising Jeff Jackson at this point and has neutered himself entirely with the stupid bet on Jack Campbell.

 

[FunkyChicken]

I doubt he has much authority to do anything at this point. It's pretty obvious he's basically just advising Jeff Jackson at this point and has neutered himself entirely with the stupid bet on Jack Campbell.

Either or.
Nothing impressive has come from McDavid's former agent. He had a chance to grab the bull by the horns, put the team first and place Brown on waivers, instead he went and hired McDavid's former coach.

 

[Soundwave]

Either or.
Nothing impressive has come from McDavid's former agent. He had a chance to grab the bull by the horns, put the team first and place Brown on waivers, instead he went and hired McDavid's former coach.

Well if it makes you feel any better the Brown bonus is basically becoming a non-issue.

If the season is a write off, they can fairly easily pay it off this year, in fact they are basically doing this already by not carrying a 13th forward even though they have the cap room to do so.

They are doing that because Jackson knows to pay off the bonus this year, which is about the first smart thing this organization has done in a while.

 

[oobga]

$25M GM

 

[Tarus]

$25M GM

Lot of reasons to dislike what Holland has done, but it's obvious he was relying on his scouting staff for that pick with his answer.

The Oiler's track record at the draft under Wright is why Jeff Jackson replaced him almost immediately.

 

[oobga]

Lot of reasons to dislike what Holland has done, but it's obvious he was relying on his scouting staff for that pick with his answer.

The Oiler's track record at the draft under Wright is why Jeff Jackson replaced him almost immediately.

Year before took zadina over Hughes too. He went right from the wings to us. Not really an excuse for him to be clueless about the draft, especially the first pick of his $25M contract. But I guess him just delegating and being clueless would be consistent with the draft results he got after 5 years at $5M.

 

[Tarus]

Year before took zadina over Hughes too. He went right from the wings to us. Not really an excuse for him to be clueless about the draft, especially the first pick of his $25M contract. But I guess him just delegating and being clueless would be consistent with the draft results he got after 5 years at $5M.

Zadina was Wright's draft pick too, Holland brought Wright over from Detroit when he was hired All I'm saying is that his lack of knowledge of the pick itself isn't a big deal, most GMs delegate the tasks of scouting as they're not flying around Europe mid-season except for major tournaments.

Probably looked at the roster coming in and told his staff to get him a defensive prospect, in a year lacking in impressive defensive prospects outside of Byram and Seider.

 

[oobga]

Zadina was Wright's draft pick too, Holland brought Wright over from Detroit when he was hired All I'm saying is that his lack of knowledge of the pick itself isn't a big deal, most GMs delegate the tasks of scouting as they're not flying around Europe mid-season except for major tournaments.

Probably looked at the roster coming in and told his staff to get him a defensive prospect, in a year lacking in impressive defensive prospects outside of Byram and Seider.

Oh, that's good to remember, so he was working with the same guy that whole season that lead to the Broberg pick.

IMO, GM's need to take a lot of heat and should get credit for picks. Not only do they have a hand in the staff that are supposed to give them the info to work off, but they are the decision makers, especially if they also tag on a POHO label, and even more if they are the highest paid GM in the league.

Ken Holland's whole persona was built around how the red wings scored all these HHoF players late in drafts, and how he was so good at picking and developing players into elite over-ripeness. Take that away, and all that's left is a guy throwing money at every big name player in the no-cap era. He even taught Bobby Nicks how to say "overripe" when Bobby was calling all his friends to learn what a POHO and GM are supposed to do after Chia had to be fired. I don't think anyone should give Holland a pass at all for his terrible draft performance here.

 

[Tarus]

Oh, that's good to remember, so he was working with the same guy that whole season that lead to the Broberg pick.

IMO, GM's need to take a lot of heat and should get credit for picks. Not only do they have a hand in the staff that are supposed to give them the info to work off, but they are the decision makers, especially if they also tag on a POHO label, and even more if they are the highest paid GM in the league.

Ken Holland's whole persona was built around how the red wings scored all these HHoF players late in drafts, and how he was so good at picking and developing players into elite over-ripeness. Take that away, and all that's left is a guy throwing money at every big name player in the no-cap era. He even taught Bobby Nicks how to say "overripe" when Bobby was calling all his friends to learn what a POHO and GM are supposed to do after Chia had to be fired. I don't think anyone should give Holland a pass at all for his terrible draft performance here.

Wasn't giving Holland a pass, was pointing out that he was relying on his scouting staff for the pick, and pointed out in general GMs do this. Completely justifiable to say that the GM should be held responsible for the man he put in charge of running his drafts failing at his job. Delegation only works if the people you delegate to are good at their jobs.

Holland gets a lot of credit for those HoF players late in drafts, but that has a lot to do with the fact that he was director of amateur scouting then. He didn't become GM of the wings until 98, and more or less gave Hakan Andersson free reign to run the Wing's draft tables(with good reason, probably the best amateur scout in the league for about a decade there).

 

[oobga]

Wasn't giving Holland a pass, was pointing out that he was relying on his scouting staff for the pick, and pointed out in general GMs do this. Completely justifiable to say that the GM should be held responsible for the man he put in charge of running his drafts failing at his job. Delegation only works if the people you delegate to are good at their jobs.

Holland gets a lot of credit for those HoF players late in drafts, but that has a lot to do with the fact that he was director of amateur scouting then. He didn't become GM of the wings until 98, and more or less gave Hakan Andersson free reign to run the Wing's draft tables(with good reason, probably the best amateur scout in the league for about a decade there).

Would be interesting to know how Holland does run his meetings for drafting. Rare to get that kind of insight with teams. Old oil change days the Oilers seems to have the GM and scouts all together and everyone tries to make their case for players, the GM very involved in trying to extract info and consensus is made on a draft order. IMO it's crazy for Holland to have no ability to comment on a guy we take with a 1st round pick, decided on with a head scout he's been with from his previous job and likely scouts below as well, but maybe that's just me. And it was a pretty sad pick, almost immediately known by most fans. Taken in the Oiler spirit that landed us someone like Steve Kelly. The lovely skating and nothing else brand of player.

In the end, it is just unfortunate how things have gone with our drafting. Really hope the new guys and next GM can fix it.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Wasn't giving Holland a pass, was pointing out that he was relying on his scouting staff for the pick, and pointed out in general GMs do this. Completely justifiable to say that the GM should be held responsible for the man he put in charge of running his drafts failing at his job. Delegation only works if the people you delegate to are good at their jobs.

Holland gets a lot of credit for those HoF players late in drafts, but that has a lot to do with the fact that he was director of amateur scouting then. He didn't become GM of the wings until 98, and more or less gave Hakan Andersson free reign to run the Wing's draft tables(with good reason, probably the best amateur scout in the league for about a decade there).

Krister Rockstrom was the Wings initial super scout in Europe. He worked closely with Neil Smith and was largely the architect of the crazy 1989 super draft with Nicklas Lidstrom, Sergei Fedorov and Vladimir Konstantinov. Rockstrom recommended Hakan Anderson to the Red Wings as he was following Neil Smith to NY Rangers. Both are/were exceptional scouts.

Your point still stands. The Red Wings were early and big in largely untapped markets, Soviet Union and unrivalled in their direct knowledge of Sweden and region.

 

[TheNumber4]

$25M GM

Good god I hate the Broberg pick more than most and I have't even seen this Clip. That's some straight up incompetence right there.

 

[TheNumber4]

Lot of reasons to dislike what Holland has done, but it's obvious he was relying on his scouting staff for that pick with his answer.

The Oiler's track record at the draft under Wright is why Jeff Jackson replaced him almost immediately.

Relying on his Scouting Staff exclusively and not being able to put any of his personal thoughts or analysis into picks is a reason to dislike Holland in itself. He should put some brain power into these picks, they are extremely important. And if he doesn't have the scouting chops to put in his input he shouldn't have the job. I can tell you GMs like Sakic and Yzerman aren't just waiting for their scouts to make every pick, they watch the players too and are involved in the decision.

What if the Scouts had it down to a 1A/1B coin flip situation between two players available to be drafted. Your GM needs to know these players as well as the scouting staff so he can make that final call.

 

[TheNumber4]

Would be interesting to know how Holland does run his meetings for drafting. Rare to get that kind of insight with teams. Old oil change days the Oilers seems to have the GM and scouts all together and everyone tries to make their case for players, the GM very involved in trying to extract info and consensus is made on a draft order. IMO it's crazy for Holland to have no ability to comment on a guy we take with a 1st round pick, decided on with a head scout he's been with from his previous job and likely scouts below as well, but maybe that's just me. And it was a pretty sad pick, almost immediately known by most fans. Taken in the Oiler spirit that landed us someone like Steve Kelly. The lovely skating and nothing else brand of player.

In the end, it is just unfortunate how things have gone with our drafting. Really hope the new guys and next GM can fix it.

From what I see on Oilers+, Holland pretty much gave free reign to Wright to run his drafts. Actually in alot of non-draft related Hockey Ops moments, Wright always seemed to have the loudest voice in the room. Most others in the room just silent and looking like YES men. Holland did not seem involved much at all, except on Draft day throwing a wrench into Wright plans by saying we need to draft a goalie. So Wright went and drafted a goalie, like the 13th one drafted on that day, no f***in way that goalie is going to be any good, but Holland said "Id like to draft a goalie this draft..."

 

[Tarus]

Krister Rockstrom was the Wings initial super scout in Europe. He worked closely with Neil Smith and was largely the architect of the crazy 1989 super draft with Nicklas Lidstrom, Sergei Fedorov and Vladimir Konstantinov. Rockstrom recommended Hakan Anderson to the Red Wings as he was following Neil Smith to NY Rangers. Both are/were exceptional scouts.

Your point still stands. The Red Wings were early and big in largely untapped markets, Soviet Union and unrivalled in their direct knowledge of Sweden and region.

I think we were reading the same article as a refresher

Relying on his Scouting Staff exclusively and not being able to put any of his personal thoughts or analysis into picks is a reason to dislike Holland in itself. He should put some brain power into these picks, they are extremely important. And if he doesn't have the scouting chops to put in his input he shouldn't have the job. I can tell you GMs like Sakic and Yzerman aren't just waiting for their scouts to make every pick, they watch the players too and are involved in the decision.

What if the Scouts had it down to a 1A/1B coin flip situation between two players available to be drafted. Your GM needs to know these players as well as the scouting staff so he can make that final call.

Every GM is different, some like to get involved, some like to be hands off. Holland is pretty clearly the hands off type, your second post more or less confirms that. I'm sure he reserves the right to have final say on any deadlocks, and it's more than likely he'll make the decision based on organizational need if it came up. He probably figures that it's best to leave it up to the guys who are paid to scout the players all year.

When it works, you get the dynasty red wings and a spot in the Hall of Fame. When it doesn't, Jeff Jackson fires your buddy and makes you a lame duck GM.

 

[TheNumber4]

I think we were reading the same article as a refresher


Every GM is different, some like to get involved, some like to be hands off. Holland is pretty clearly the hands off type, your second post more or less confirms that. I'm sure he reserves the right to have final say on any deadlocks, and it's more than likely he'll make the decision based on organizational need if it came up. He probably figures that it's best to leave it up to the guys who are paid to scout the players all year.

When it works, you get the dynasty red wings and a spot in the Hall of Fame. When it doesn't, Jeff Jackson fires your buddy and makes you a lame duck GM.

Not sure what the split would be between hands on and hands off GMs without seeing all the teams behind the scenes content. But I’d wager there’s more GMs these days that put some scouting in for at-least the top picks. In any case, I would hope that the top hockey mind in the organization by pay and reputation (usually the GM) would be heavily involved in the very most important decisions.

Yeh Holland for sure seems to be hands off. I wouldn’t know for sure until I saw behind the scenes draft things. Not a fan of this approach at all. And if he is going to use this approach he should put a lot of thought into who he hires as head scouts. And I don’t think he did that either. He brought Weight and Archie in from Detroit cause they were already there, we know a job search wasn’t done. We all know how Wright got here but did you also know that Holland only hired Wright in Detroit cause his Head scout (a successful one by his drafting record) left for another organization? I bet Holland scrambled to find a replacement and not much thought was put into the initial hire either.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I think we were reading the same article as a refresher

Haha. No refresher article for me. I actually met Rockstrom early 90's and followed his career. I'd love to read the article though that you reference and will share this one: Birth of a Rangers Legend | New York Rangers

 

[Spawn]

Even if the Oilers manage to dig their way out of the hole they created in the first 6 weeks of the season, they are going to be DOA in the playoffs. It's really hard imagining this team winning a cup with this caliber of goaltending.