Speculation: Fire Bylsma/Shero? We are asking the wrong question

[KIRK]

What should this team be? This team should lead the NHL in scoring. The power play should be in the top 5. The team should be a nightmare for opponents to try to win the match-up game. We should have size up and down the lineup, youth and toughness.

When the playoffs start, teams should feel afraid to play this team...not lick their chops. We shouldn't be a strict two-trick pony. Our top-six wingers should thrive playing with two of the best playmakers of this era. Our defensemen should rack up points, but half of them should be able to take care of business in our end. Our team speed should be good overall, and when things start to get chippy, we should have a fourth line that is capable of setting the right tone, policing things that may spiral out of control and chip in with some offense here and there.

In goal, we don't need a superstar. We don't need an athletic freak. We need a cerebral guy who understands game situations, doesn't get rattled easily and can make a save when the team needs it. That's it.


We have very little of what we actually should be.

You need a guy in the front office who will build around Sid and Geno and a guy behind the bench with the gravitas and the tactical and bench management skills to leverage what Sid and Geno bring.

In short, you need two americanos (or canadianos) with balls, Senor Jagscobar.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

All that is great. But I was asking more an Xs and Os, system and identity question.

I'll make it easier. Name a team you would like the Pens to play most like. Who would best fit Sid and Malkin? Or would you run a different system entirely?

Bylsma's north south game? A modified trap like we played in games three and four? Something else?

Personnel and system, and GM and coach, will differ based on those choices.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Good question.

First of all, I want a team that never gives up and takes pride in the details of the game. I don't want to hear f3 this or that, I want to see f's 1-3 backchecking hard every shift. I want better positioning. I don't want to see guys fishing around with their sticks, trying to cover their man from the wrong side. I don't want to see guys doing loops killing time and waiting to fly for a stretch pass.

I want to see more cycling and far fewer low percentage passes or shots. I want to see much stronger puck support. I'd rather see turnovers forced early and a strong counterattack than waiting until the d zone and forcing the team to go 150'.

I want sandpaper. I want guys like Bortuzzo, Despres, Talbot, etc trolling people and drawing penalties. I want the powerplay to be successful because of skill AND outworking the opposition. I want a PK that will go on the offensive and rag the puck.

 

[cygnus47]

All the people saying we need an identity are right. We've been in between a puck moving team, a grinding team and an offensive team.

When we won, we had an identity. Fast and hard, physically tough, hold the zone and keep the pressure up.

If we're doing the puck-moving, speed thing then we can't have people like Glass, Adams, Scuds and Orpik on the team. We need more puck-support and more structure on zone-entry.

If we're a grinding team, we can't have a bottom 6 that is small and weak or a system which leaves it difficult to forecheck or won't possess the puck.

The offensive load up doesn't work in the salary cap era and a loaded team won't last year after year.

It's Shero and Bylsma's job to figure out what our identity should be and then build the team and system which fits. They're both responsible, but I think that Shero at least is good at the rest of his job.

 

[Vegeta]

Not that I would object to either, especially the fire Bylsma part.

But before we get to whether to fire one or both, I think that you have to think about where you want to go from there. What team do we want to have?
Some posts I made about Boston’s GM Peter Chiarelli got me to thinking about this. Give Boston some credit, they have a vision and stick to it. They have shown some elephant balls over the years, trading three true franchise forwards, arguably at a loss, sticking to the vision of what a Boston player should be. Even give the Flyers credit. They have a vision and stick to it. Even if even their most ardent supporters believe that it is the wrong vision, at least they have a plan. We all know what Boston hockey is, Philly, Devils, and most other franchises who have had success over the years.

What is the plan for the Penguins? Are we a defensive team? Grinding? Fast break, what? I honestly have no clue what a ‘Pens’ player looks like. Do you?

And until you have a vision how can you build a team? Hire a coach or GM to best express that vision? Remember Crosby and Malkin shouldn’t be going anywhere. I would put Letang in that group as well. Those players’ unique skills should play into that vision.

So yeah, I think we are putting the cart way before the horse. And these are questions which should have been asked years ago. It is damning that they are unanswerable today.

Penguins hockey (prior to The Bylsma era) to me has always been a run and gun style. For the past 30 years we've been a team that relies on our forward corps out playing the opponent's forward corps; defense and goaltending be damned. That is why I have such a deep appreciation for Tom Barrasso, he was 10 times the goalie Flower is.

 

[canadianguy77]

Penguins hockey (prior to The Bylsma era) to me has always been a run and gun style. For the past 30 years we've been a team that relies on our forward corps out playing the opponent's forward corps; defense and goaltending be damned. That is why I have such a deep appreciation for Tom Barrasso, he was 10 times the goalie Flower is.

I have to disagree with that assessment. They've both lost playoff series' for their teams. I'm not a MAF supporter by any means, but those early 90's teams had firepower that this team could only dream of. I mean, they were winning playoff games with scores of 6-5. I sort of view them both as mediocre goalies who backstopped teams that didn't play sound defensive games. Barasso is overrated by a lot of Penguins fans to this day. He was an ******* as well.

 

[tom_servo]

I have to disagree with that assessment. They've both lost playoff series' for their teams. I'm not a MAF supporter by any means, but those early 90's teams had firepower that this team could only dream of. I mean, they were winning playoff games with scores of 6-5. I sort of view them both as mediocre goalies who backstopped teams that didn't play sound defensive games. Barasso is overrated by a lot of Penguins fans to this day. He was an ******* as well.

Agreed. '96 ECF, terrible. Couldn't wait for him to go.

Pens have never had an elite goalie. Maybe not even a top ten goalie (Barrasso might've gotten there one year as a Pen, certainly another as a Sabre).

 

[ColePens]

Run and gun is always combined w/ fast. Those two do not have to be the same thing. You can play fast defense and frustrate the hell out of the slow/tough teams. When you have 5 gnats flying around the ice backchecking and never giving up odd man rushes and collapsing in the d-zone to only force point shots, it can be one long night for a slow/tough team. It's funny because most people think if you are fast and small you HAVE to exchange scoring chances. That is so false it's unreal.

As we bring up the late 90s teams. Any big of solid defensive structure could have defended a goalie a lot more. That's why I'm not totally against giving up FLeury and I believe he can be something on a good team.

The name of the game is defensive responsibility. You can play it fast. I would use a combination of DB and MT mixed with a guy who is both intense/not overbearing.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This quote from a DK interview from earlier today (before the game) gets to exactly what I am talking about:

'Sammich: The Winnipeg Jets seemed like a different (better) team after they changed coaches. Could the Pens learn anything from them?

Dejan Kovacevic: Busted. Yeah, you got me.
Paul Maurice came into Winnipeg and added exactly that kind of structure. Got all their forwards involved all over the rink. Totally different than the loosey-goosey stuff Claude Noel had been doing. Striking to see the same players suddenly look so different.'


http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejancolumns/6107384-74/dejan-kovacevic-game#axzz31fbBxKKa

I honestly think that for some of these players you can not evaluate them completely until they play under a proper system. The right coaching and this team could suddenly be the contender we used to think that they were.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This quote from a DK interview from earlier today (before the game) gets to exactly what I am talking about:

'Sammich: The Winnipeg Jets seemed like a different (better) team after they changed coaches. Could the Pens learn anything from them?

Dejan Kovacevic: Busted. Yeah, you got me.
Paul Maurice came into Winnipeg and added exactly that kind of structure. Got all their forwards involved all over the rink. Totally different than the loosey-goosey stuff Claude Noel had been doing. Striking to see the same players suddenly look so different.'


http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejancolumns/6107384-74/dejan-kovacevic-game#axzz31fbBxKKa

I honestly think that for some of these players you can not evaluate them completely until they play under a proper system. The right coaching and this team could suddenly be the contender we used to think that they were.

And that's exactly why Bylsma should have been fired a long time ago. We don't know how much of Letang or Neal or now Sid's struggles are because of the player and how much are due to Bylsma's "system".

Trading a key player before getting rid of Bylsma and bringing in a new voice is counter productive. But alas, management believed in Bylsma and we just saw yet another year of Crosby and Malkin's prime wasted.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

And another interesting part of the above linked DK piece, which explains a HUGE amount why we saw Burkle sitting next to Mario looking constipated. He is not much of a fan from what I have seen, rarely at games, but comes in when the business end matters. He was visible in the CEC negotiations. Now he pops up again. Why you may ask? Listen:


'Dejan Kovacevic: The bigger question about the CEC crowd, for me, isn't about tightness. It's about how invested they'll be in the first place. There are some really angry hockey fans in this city right now. Really disappointed. Really disillusioned. Wanting to dump their season tix. I hear from them all the time now.
And these aren't lesser fans, by the way. Caring about the franchise's ability to win a championship, as opposed to just supporting whatever the hell you're watching, doesn't make you a lesser fan'.

 

[KIRK]

And another interesting part of the above linked DK piece, which explains a HUGE amount why we saw Burkle sitting next to Mario looking constipated. He is not much of a fan from what I have seen, rarely at games, but comes in when the business end matters. He was visible in the CEC negotiations. Now he pops up again. Why you may ask? Listen:


'Dejan Kovacevic: The bigger question about the CEC crowd, for me, isn't about tightness. It's about how invested they'll be in the first place. There are some really angry hockey fans in this city right now. Really disappointed. Really disillusioned. Wanting to dump their season tix. I hear from them all the time now.
And these aren't lesser fans, by the way. Caring about the franchise's ability to win a championship, as opposed to just supporting whatever the hell you're watching, doesn't make you a lesser fan'.

IMHO, that is why Shero and Bylsma and their stooges have to be gone within 24 hours. You can't appear to be deliberating about it. You can't appear to be nice about it. You have to send a loud and forceful message to your fan base AND to your two franchise players who put butts in the seats.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

IMHO, that is why Shero and Bylsma and their stooges have to be gone within 24 hours. You can't appear to be deliberating about it. You can't appear to be nice about it. You have to send a loud and forceful message to your fan base AND to your two franchise players who put butts in the seats.

As one of those season ticket holders who spends a huge amount on a couple of nott even the best seats in the house, I was also one starting to question if it is worth it for groundhog day over and over.

I seriously have been considering just letting them go.

So yeah, I am not surprised that I am not alone.

 

[PSGJ]

I read a very good article a few months back about what the main problem with the Pens was. Sadly I can't remember where I read it. The conclusion was that a lack of depth is the problem. Basically the team is getting killed when neither Sid nor Geno is on the ice. There were a lot of stats to back it up, but I'd say that conclusion passes the eye test as well. Sure, Sid was bad in the playoffs this year, but on a deeper team there are other players who can step up when the star is faltering.

Then there's the goalie issue of course. MAF was decent this year, but you usually need your goalie to be amazing in the playoffs in order to get far. It was some really bad luck that Vokoun got that serious medical problem. With him having played a season as the starter and then given the chance in the playoffs, things could have been very different.

These problems are Shero's problems and I think he needs to be fired for failing to build depth and getting good goal tending. Then the new GM should get to decide what to do about Bylsma.

 

[KIRK]

As one of those season ticket holders who spends a huge amount on a couple of nott even the best seats in the house, I was also one starting to question if it is worth it for groundhog day over and over.

I seriously have been considering just letting them go.

So yeah, I am not surprised that I am not alone.

If they wait until Friday or Monday, then what do you think? If it were me, it would be that the decision was made grudgingly.

Wrong message.

Got to be done within 24 hours. Really today. You need the story to be about rebooting this organization and how Mario has descended from the heavens sarcasm to save Sid and Geno (from the mess he helped to create . . . sort of but not entirely).

 

[KIRK]

I read a very good article a few months back about what the main problem with the Pens was. Sadly I can't remember where I read it. The conclusion was that a lack of depth is the problem. Basically the team is getting killed when neither Sid nor Geno is on the ice. There were a lot of stats to back it up, but I'd say that conclusion passes the eye test as well. Sure, Sid was bad in the playoffs this year, but on a deeper team there are other players who can step up when the star is faltering.

Then there's the goalie issue of course. MAF was decent this year, but you usually need your goalie to be amazing in the playoffs in order to get far. It was some really bad luck that Vokoun got that serious medical problem. With him having played a season as the starter and then given the chance in the playoffs, things could have been very different.

These problems are Shero's problems and I think he needs to be fired for failing to build depth and getting good goal tending. Then the new GM should get to decide what to do about Bylsma.

No, that decision needs to be made before the new GM ever gets here.

EDIT: I'm going to say something. I want a total house cleaning. Shero and his stooges. Bylsma and his stooges. Botterill is kind of a capologist, so maybe in that role he'd be ok. The one guy I don't know about is Fitzie. I've always maintained that his role in 2009 is undervalued and believed that he was the guy who suggested Talbot to replace Sykora (seeing how Malkin was handled thereafter, it's a reasonable assumption). I don't know if he's become a 'yes man' in the front office or if he's the guy who offers his opinion politely and winces. Anyone know if he's a true Shero stooge?

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Shero has tried to turn us into the ****ing Preds. Guess what? The Preds haven't won ****. I remember an interview from earlier in the season and they said that since the Preds came into the league only 3 teams haven't been able to hang a conference or division banner in their building; the Preds, the Isles and I think the Panthers. Why the **** would anyone want to try to build their team like any of those 3 clubs?

To be fair, the Preds do not belong in the same category as the Islanders or Preds. Nashville has relatively consistently been in the bottom five in payroll, yet they managed to make the playoffs almost every year and outside of the last season or two they rarely have been out of playoff contention in the years they have not been in the hunt. They have also had a few seasons in that run that they were considered at least small fry contenders. The Panthers, Islanders, and several other franchises wish they could have had the stability and success of the Preds over the last decade.

The Pens of course have been a team spending money, so the same results are not acceptable...but that does not mean the Preds do not deserve respect.

 

[PSGJ]

No, that decision needs to be made before the new GM ever gets here.

EDIT: I'm going to say something. I want a total house cleaning. Shero and his stooges. Bylsma and his stooges. Botterill is kind of a capologist, so maybe in that role he'd be ok. The one guy I don't know about is Fitzie. I've always maintained that his role in 2009 is undervalued and believed that he was the guy who suggested Talbot to replace Sykora (seeing how Malkin was handled thereafter, it's a reasonable assumption). I don't know if he's become a 'yes man' in the front office or if he's the guy who offers his opinion politely and winces. Anyone know if he's a true Shero stooge?

That could work as well. The main thrust of my post was that Shero must go, that's the important part.

 

[KIRK]

That could work as well. The main thrust of my post was that Shero must go, that's the important part.

No disagreement here. He can't be trusted to pick the right coach. He's too invested and biased towards players and prospects and just too risk averse overall to make the type of changes that are going to be necessary in terms of personnel. And, he has demonstrated year after year that the idea of building around Crosby and Malkin is nothing more than an afterthought. This organization needs fresh eyeballs in management.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

All that is great. But I was asking more an Xs and Os, system and identity question.

I'll make it easier. Name a team you would like the Pens to play most like. Who would best fit Sid and Malkin? Or would you run a different system entirely?

Bylsma's north south game? A modified trap like we played in games three and four? Something else?

Personnel and system, and GM and coach, will differ based on those choices.

Colorado Avalanche now mostly resemble what we should become. Their blueline is more makeshift and ours will be young and more talented, but their wingers (and extra centers who move to wing) are better than ours.

We don't have two crucial pieces they have, though, to pull this off: the right coach and the right goaltending situation.

 

[Tender Rip]

'Funny' to read this thread after reading Starkey's column that might ask the right questions initially, only to flame out horrendously at the end http://triblive.com/sports/joestarkey/6101750-74/penguins-team-mario#axzz31klAFbrj .

There are definitely huge questions here, and I'd also want to get quite a bit of turnover as regards the management staff and quite a few players not returning.

But IMO, we still have the vast majority of what we need roster wise, the supplementary qualities I have been railing about for years just need to be added. This means getting that touch of size/physicality sprinkled in up and down the forward group, and it means understanding that our PP will remain an issue in the playoffs if it doesn't have balance. It has been years or arguing "just have movement and let Sid and Malkin QB it"... and everyone must understand by now that this is nonsense.

Most importantly however, we need to implement a system that actually translates to the realities of playoff hockey. One that is predicated on being a sound puck possession team that can beat you in several ways. One that can hurt you in transition when those chances are there, but also one that can methodically manufacture offense by occupying the offensive zone, forecheck and get to the net with authority.

As some of us have been saying for years, the supposedly intricate and complicated system Bylsma runs does not look like it is intricate or complicated. It looks simplistic and Hail Mary based offensively and uncoordinated and weak defensively. More than that, it does not appear as if the players believe in it, as it is liable to break down as soon as anyone frustrates us by taking our favorite toys away.

More than any new player, our performances as a team will improve by finding a mode of playing that allows us to break out of our own zone and move from the neutral zone to the offensive zone with PUCK SUPPORT, and with high percentage plays to enter the offensive zone with speed. Whether it is by dumping it in or carrying it in. In the former case, we just have to make sure that we have players who can actually win such contests, will try to (!) and are put in a position where they can have a chance to.

Also - lets stop loading up on veteran grunts and maybes at the start of the season and lets play those youngsters who could be solutions. It was easy and virtually costless to add Stempniak and Goc at the deadline. Set us up with the most crucial pieces settled from the beginning of the season and lets develop solutions from within for the rest and adjust further along in the season as it proves needed.
What we have been doing is the exact opposite. Plug the real round holes with square bits, and over load on depth players who are not solutions but keep us from being able to develop any ourselves.

NB: One thing about the Starkey and Rossi pieces from today..... Bylsma was losing Sid and Geno because they weren't having fun?
I hope playing a BS system is the reason for this lack of fun, but really - how pathetic is it that such insights only find their way to the paper after the season is done? Just looks like spinning to me, and if it isn't, then it is all the more negligible management not having acted on it down the stretch when all our problems were so obvious that they were spotted also by those who had previously found all those "1st in thee Division, Fastest to #250" etc excuses comforting as blinders.

Anyway.... roster wise you start out by finding complimentary pieces for Sid and Geno to run each of their lines as a nuclear weapon. Make sure that you get a RH solution for the PP including an upgrade on Kunitz as the net presence... and then you trust our youth on D.

This ought to be easy, as long as you are cynical about those long time Pens/vets who carry high salaries and don't play part in a long term solution.

Orpik, Scuderi, Fleury and Dupuis more than anyone. If we get a couple of picks that is OK simply on account of the cap flexibility. A good trade yielding something useful of course.... even better.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

First question I ask a head coach candidate.

Tell me in two sentences or less when I think Penguins, what will the average fan be thinking after watching your team play a year of hockey? What identity will you bring that will be Penguins hockey?

Then I ask what system he will put in place to bring that vision to life.

Then I ask how that system best uses Crosby and Malkin.

 

[KIRK]

First question I ask a head coach candidate.

Tell me in two sentences or less when I think Penguins, what will the average fan be thinking after watching your team play a year of hockey? What identity will you bring that will be Penguins hockey?

Then I ask what system he will put in place to bring that vision to life.

Then I ask how that system best uses Crosby and Malkin.

Hey now, eyes on your own paper.

EDIT: Thanks for the link, TR. Starkey is a moron.

 

[Tender Rip]

EDIT: Thanks for the link, TR. Starkey is a moron.[/

It is known.

 

[KIRK]

It is known.

Not sure how I missed this brilliance from Yohe about game 7 . . . http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/6101581-74/penguins-rangers-neal#axzz31bxkPyyQ

Neal came close to scoring, at least. The same can't be said of Crosby and Malkin.

In the final three games against the Rangers, the burst of energy Malkin displayed against Columbus was missing.

You can't make up how dumb Yohe is or ignore speculating what the outcomes of games 5 or 7 might have been if even half the team had shown a quarter of what Geno did.

I swear, it's like the job application to be a PG hockey writer is one question: Are you a moron?