GDT: Final Pre-season game: San Jose Karlssons @ Vegas Other-Karlsson | 5pm PT | NHL Network

[tiburon12]

What they really meant was we have riches of embarrassments.

classic mixup

 

[Brent Burns]

This might be the most inane Sharks board discussion I’ve seen in a while. Burns has been great at both ends of the ice. Nuances being discussed here are 10% of the realistic picture but treated as if they’re 90-100%

 

[seroes]

Less then 48 hours before the ducks beat us with 5 short-handed goals.

While our preseason play is a cause for concern, until it starts being a thing in the regular season I'm going to remain optimistic about this season.

 

[Lebanezer]

While last night’s game was hilarious and awful, I think there was always going to be a huge adjustment period. This team has belonged to Joe Thornton since he was acquired in 2005. Erik Karlsson is the only Shark who has ever set foot on the ice since that day who can affect a game like Thornton did when he was younger. Every Sharks player knows this, not every Sharks player understands yet what his presence will do to the team. The balance that has to be struck with Karlsson on the team is going to take time. He’s already changing the way the team plays. The 2nd power play unit looked great with him. The first power play unit is trying to maintain the status quo. Karlsson brings a different element to that unit, trying to make him fit into Patty’s old role, or Labanc’s last year is a waste of Karlsson’s abilities. That 1st unit can’t seriously try to continue to be what they were without Karlsson. They have to become something new, or they need to be separated so they can be something else that utilizes their best player. Trading for Karlsson is so much bigger than just plugging a guy like Kane or even Burns into the lineup. The ripple effect should be palpable on every d pairing and every line. I expect it to take about 20 or so games before things really settle. We all bemoan the failures of the Sharks in the Thornton era, well it’s not the Thornton era anymore, and they have to embrace the new. Hopefully their evolution will come quickly.

 

[Bleedred]

it is hard to judge with that stinker by jones.

He got beat on too many clean shots. I’m glad I’m not the only one that wasn’t happy with his game last night. I thought Dell also looked poor in the game he played that was televised against the Ducks.

Unfortunately, those were the only Sharks games that I think were televised or even had highlights all preseason long, so I didn’t get to see maybe some of the better games.

 

[KirbyDots]

Less then 48 hours before the ducks beat us with 5 short-handed goals.

While our preseason play is a cause for concern, until it starts being a thing in the regular season I'm going to remain optimistic about this season.

Perry is out, we won't get that many PPs and it'll only be 3 short-handed goals.

 

[seroes]

Perry is out, we won't get that many PPs and it'll only be 3 short-handed goals.

They are gonna score twice during a couple of them.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Man, it’s cute that this board is high in Merkley but turns on Burns this fast.

If Merkley was costing us games the way that Burns did last night, we would probably be unhappy with him as well.

I have always been a huge fan of offensive defenseman. I believe they provide more value than elite defensive defensemen or two-way defensemen like Drew Doughty. However, Burns in particular has really struggled as of late. He had a really bad first 3 quarters of last season, and looks to be having the same issues again.

During the course of his sharks career (especially the Norris winning year) I’d agree with you. Last year though, no he was definitely off far more than he was on. Hoping to see more of the Burns from two years ago

This.

I just find it hard to justify that sort of comment for someone who had 67 points last year. I definitely agree that when he's bad, he's really bad but he was pretty consistently solid from February on and he was consistently a scoring threat even when he was defensively poor in some of those games. Some people may want to point to his -16 but a lot of that really only comes from five games in the first half of the year.

In many of the games where he scored, his scoring came on the power play and he was terrible defensively and often gave up what he created.

Perhaps it is just that, like no other player in the league with anywhere near the level of talent he has, when Burns is bad, he is just really bad.

 

[do0glas]

I will rest any issue with burns 5v5 on deboer. He has karlsson. He should be able to heavily maximize the burns effect without it biting us.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

In many of the games where he scored, his scoring came on the power play and he was terrible defensively and often gave up what he created.

Perhaps it is just that, like no other player in the league with anywhere near the level of talent he has, when Burns is bad, he is just really bad.

That simply isn't true. I'm sure you can find games here and there where that may be the case but on the whole of it, it isn't accurate. Burns comes out ahead on what he creates compare to what he gives up but what he creates is what we expect and what he gives up is pretty much all that is focused on because of people's natural inclination to focus on the negatives. I agree that when Burns is bad, he's really bad. My disagreement is this notion that he's off more than he's on or that it happens all that frequently to begin with or that he's giving up more on the whole than what he creates. That simply isn't accurate to say.

 

[Agent Zub]

I think some of the difference between Burns today and Burns ofo2016 and 2017. rests on the play of Pavelski and Thornton.

They had great years that year and opened up tons of ice for Burns to get his shot off.

They aren't as effective anymore and I feel like Burns to compensate for that and to maintain his offensive numbers has started to take more risks and defaulted to shooting even more.

Do you guys think there's any truth to this?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I think some of the difference between Burns today and Burns the year he won the Norris rests on the play of Pavelski and Thornton.

They had great years that year and opened up tons of ice for Burns to get his shot off.

They aren't as effective anymore and I feel like Burns to compensate for that and to maintain his offensive numbers has started to take more risks and defaulted to shooting even more.

Do you guys think there's any truth to this?

Not really. That setup of Thornton-Pavelski-Burns the ice opens up for the forwards the way Burns plays more than the other way around. The reason why Burns didn't score as many goals last year is that the system focused most of its offense from point shots from Burns instead of letting it be more organic through normal offensive flow of play. If the focus isn't on Burns to the extent that it was last year, he's left to pinch more and get into goal scoring areas more often.

 

[Agent Zub]

Not really. That setup of Thornton-Pavelski-Burns the ice opens up for the forwards the way Burns plays more than the other way around. The reason why Burns didn't score as many goals last year is that the system focused most of its offense from point shots from Burns instead of letting it be more organic through normal offensive flow of play. If the focus isn't on Burns to the extent that it was last year, he's left to pinch more and get into goal scoring areas more often.

True Thornton didn't even crack 60 points during Burns Norris year.

 

[Bleedred]

Jones is a bottom five starter in the West. Jake Allen, Mike Smith and the Vancouver guy are the only ones who are definitively worse.

I rank goalies a little bit differently than I used to. I don't really think there is a such thing as a ''Top 20 goalie'' in the league and maybe not even a top 10 goalie. There's about a half a dozen, maybe 7 really elite goalies, then there's about 15-20 goalies that are average and interchangeable (this is as far as starters go), then there's a bottom 5-ish range or so. I consider Jones to be in that list of 15-20 goalies. I think there's probably 5 or 6 starters in the league worse than Jones, which doesn't mean he's the sixth worst starter in the league, as much as it means that there's probably only 5 or 6 teams that don't have at least one goalie better than Jones and then about 25 or so teams that have at least one goalie that's at least as good, if not better than Jones. And at the same time there's probably only 7, possibly 10 teams that have at least one goalie that's definitely better than Jones. The bottom 5-7 starters for me are definitely made up of guys like Jimmy Howard, Scott Darling/Petr Mrazek (whoever the Canes starter is), Brian Elliott, Craig Anderson, Vancouver's platoon ( made up of one backup goalie and one scrub that shouldn't be in the NHL), whoever you consider the starter in Buffalo (Hutton likely isn't as good as his last two years) and Cory Schneider. Jake Allen probably belongs near this group, he's borderline. Smith is still in the average echelon for me, but much closer to being bottom of the barrel than at the top of the average class. Gun to my head I say Jones is better than both Allen and Smith.

 

[Bleedred]

Which one of those should he have saved exactly?

First goal is definitely a stoppable goal. Beat his glove hand very cleanly. There's no rule that a nice glove save is impossible if you're not Marty Brodeur. It developed very fast and caught him off guard, so I'd give him a bit of a break on that one.

Second goal is stoppable. Yes, it was a breakaway and yes, it's not his fault, but I don't agree with the notion that because it's a breakaway, it can't be a stoppable goal on the goaltender. He was square to the shooter and it found a spot between his arm and body under the blocker. That goal isn't his fault, but it's a stoppable one.

Third goal is borderline for me. Puck was rolling a bit, it was basically a one timer. It did tick his glove, so he had a really good chance at that one.

Fourth goal, I wouldn't really ding him on. You can argue a poor rebound, but it's a bit nitpicky to get on him for this one.

Fifth goal was another wrist shot that beat his glove way too cleanly. That's another stoppable one.

 

[Juxtaposer]

True Thornton didn't even crack 60 points during Burns Norris year.

Trust me, Thornton didn’t do anything for Burns that season. All Pavelski did was tip pucks. Burns was legitimately the best D in the NHL that season. Our team was awful without him.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Regarding Jones; the stats don’t lie.

Among 42 goaltenders who have played at least 100 games over the past 3 seasons. Jones ranks:

3rd in games played
12th in Goals Saved Above Average
15th in Delta Save Percentage (Real Save percentage minus expected save percentage)
20th in save percentage

He’s slightly above league average and when you consider his playoff performances, which are near the very top of the league over that time frame, he’s definitely not some garbage goaltender. But I have absolutely no confidence in him when I watch him play. The stats do defeat the eye test when the sample size is this large and all of the stats look good on Jones but when I watch him I just feel like he sucks.

 

[do0glas]

Regarding Jones; the stats don’t lie.

Among 42 goaltenders who have played at least 100 games over the past 3 seasons. Jones ranks:

3rd in games played
12th in Goals Saved Above Average
15th in Delta Save Percentage (Real Save percentage minus expected save percentage)
20th in save percentage

He’s slightly above league average and when you consider his playoff performances, which are near the very top of the league over that time frame, he’s definitely not some garbage goaltender. But I have absolutely no confidence in him when I watch him play. The stats do defeat the eye test when the sample size is this large and all of the stats look good on Jones but when I watch him I just feel like he sucks.

I actually have a lot more confidence when watching jones than what his stats say actually happens.

If we remain near top of the league in shot suppression, him being average wont affect much, and if we start letting more shots i bet his stats go up. Which means hes like every other goalie in the league and besides his caphit shouldnt be looking at him like the next niemi.

 

[LA Shark]

When it comes to Jones, like Thorntonsrooster, I also don't feel comfortable when watching Jones, and just feel like he sucks. But like PF said about Burns(which I agree with in Burns case as well,) we have a tendacy to notice the negatives of our goalie more as well.

When Jones makes a good save, it's just like ok nice save, now let's score a goal, unless it's truly an amazing save. When the opposing goalie makes a nice save, it's wow what a save, geeze I thought we scored there for sure.

When the opposing goalie let's in a softie, we concentrate more on who scored the goal for our team and what led to it, and are just happy that we scored. We don't analyze what their goalie should have done to stop it. When Jones let's in the same goal we don't care who scored it or what led to it. We just concentrate on how mad we are when it goes in and what Jones could have done differently.

Jones numbers prove what he is. A league average goal tender that can step up come playoff time. We just notice our goalies short comings more than other teams goalies imo.

 

[Dicdonya]

I think the people who don't feel safe watching Jones did not have the pleasure of watching Niemi.

Jones makes me feel like I am at the center of a presidential cavalcade in comparison to Niemi.

Ill take an average goalie who usually steps up in the playoffs any day of the week.

 

[slocal]

I think the people who don't feel safe watching Jones did not have the pleasure of watching Niemi.

Jones makes me feel like I am at the center of a presidential cavalcade in comparison to Niemi.

Ill take an average goalie who usually steps up in the playoffs any day of the week.

That constant blank stare...

*shudders*

 

[Lebanezer]

That constant blank stare...

*shudders*

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I think the people who don't feel safe watching Jones did not have the pleasure of watching Niemi.

Jones makes me feel like I am at the center of a presidential cavalcade in comparison to Niemi.

Ill take an average goalie who usually steps up in the playoffs any day of the week.

Check my join date. I was here before then as well; I was a fan in the Nabokov days. I really think this difference is overstated.

In the regular season, Niemi and Jones were both slightly above league average goaltenders. Niemi was notably above average in 2013 when he was a legitimate Vezina candidate. When considering their heavy workload on a year after year basis, their numbers become a bit more flattering; they were solidly in the upper echelon of starting goaltenders.

In the playoffs, however, Niemi was terrible, while Jones has so far been very good. One great regular season from Niemi and 3 solid regular season runs from Jones are really the real difference between the two.

 

[Alwalys]

Oh baby oh mama!

 

[ThePlanet]

Jones over Niemi 10/10 aiaec.

While his reaction speed isn't elite, it's rare you find Jones not squared up to the shot. Positionally, he is about as solid as they come. In both reaction time, and positioning, Niemi was atrocious. But, hey... What a workaholic. When you also take their playoff performances as Sharks into consideration, the gap between these two only widens.