Fertitta : " Hockey struggles south of the Mason-Dixon Line, and it's a fact"

[Howboutthempanthers]

Hockey (sports in general) will fail anywhere with bad ownership. Unfortunately it just so happens that some people who do not make for good sports owners, have bought a lot of teams down south. Hopefully for us, this trend will end at some point. It has ended for teams like Tampa Bay and so forth.

 

[Killion]

Hockey (sports in general) will fail anywhere with bad ownership. Unfortunately it just so happens that some people who do not make for good sports owners, have bought a lot of teams down south. Hopefully for us, this trend will end at some point. It has ended for teams like Tampa Bay and so forth.

Precisely, and so do I (hope the challenges overcome in S.Florida). All starts & stops with Ownership AND the League itself. What Tilman Fertitta's suggesting is likely a ruse, negotiating through the media with comments like that, "Mason-Dixon" a total dodge. Reminds me of a story.... Cool Hand Luke. Oh Brother Where Art Thou type dealeo.... so.... these convicts make a jail break... being chased by Sheriffs, Jail Guards, Posse' through rural wherever... Bloodhounds.... so they come across a barnyard and one of the convicts in order to throw the dogs off his scent... lets call this guy Tilman.... covers himself in manure & sure enough, the pack just carry's on bye chasing a false scent & trail, barking all the louder, confused, misdirected... Not only is Fertitta talking Bull****... he's covered in it ... reeks.... real bad Tilman (and what in Hell kinda name is that anyway? Sounds like the title to a Cat Stevens song, album, Tea for the Tillermaing... whatever).... I dont think Bettman, Jacobs et al are fooled, nor are very many here.

 

[wildthing202]

The guy spent almost all his fortune on the Rockets, he's not a viable owner but just a landlord so why not mention that? Not to mention couldn't you say baseball struggles south of the Mason-Dixon? Lots of crappy teams and empty seats in the "south". The Marlins are the to Miami what the Coyotes are to Glendale. No one says MLB has a problem there. What about Tampa? Even the Astros drew terribly when they put out a terrible product.

This isn't just posturing, its a guy that is basically saying screw you NHL, we don't need you down here. He says it because the day will come when the Rockets are not doing well, he's not able to sell a lot of tickets and if he has an NHL team paying him rent it won't make up for the lost revenue he perceives from having to share the market.

Who says the MLB doesn't struggle in Florida? If Miami didn't get hustled so badly the Marlins would be in Montreal and Tampa would be in Portland or vice versa.

 

[mjlee]

Hockey struggles in Washington and St. Louis?

Well at least in the second round

 

[Mike Louis]

Precisely, and so do I (hope the challenges overcome in S.Florida). All starts & stops with Ownership AND the League itself. What Tilman Fertitta's suggesting is likely a ruse, negotiating through the media with comments like that, "Mason-Dixon" a total dodge. Reminds me of a story.... Cool Hand Luke. Oh Brother Where Art Thou type dealeo.... so.... these convicts make a jail break... being chased by Sheriffs, Jail Guards, Posse' through rural wherever... Bloodhounds.... so they come across a barnyard and one of the convicts in order to throw the dogs off his scent... lets call this guy Tilman.... covers himself in manure & sure enough, the pack just carry's on bye chasing a false scent & trail, barking all the louder, confused, misdirected... Not only is Fertitta talking Bull****... he's covered in it ... reeks.... real bad Tilman (and what in Hell kinda name is that anyway? Sounds like the title to a Cat Stevens song, album, Tea for the Tillermaing... whatever).... I dont think Bettman, Jacobs et al are fooled, nor are very many here.

The problem for Bettman, Jacobs, and the Board of Governors is that they have a distressed asset in the Coyotes that is way overvalued and that it’s only a matter of time before Barroway is forced to sell. They won’t relocate the Coyotes to Seattle because they intend to get their $650 million pound of flesh in expansion fees before the team valuation bubble bursts. That leaves Houston and unfortunately for Bettman and Jacobs, Fertitta didn’t make his money being a dummy. Fertitta making this declaration about difficulties in the Sunbelt markets is nothing more than him reminding Bettman that he, not the NHL has the leverage in any relocation negotiations.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The problem for Bettman, Jacobs, and the Board of Governors is that they have a distressed asset in the Coyotes that is way overvalued and that it’s only a matter of time before Barroway is forced to sell. They won’t relocate the Coyotes to Seattle because they intend to get their $650 million pound of flesh in expansion fees before the team valuation bubble bursts. That leaves Houston and unfortunately for Bettman and Jacobs, Fertitta didn’t make his money being a dummy. Fertitta making this declaration about difficulties in the Sunbelt markets is nothing more than him reminding Bettman that he, not the NHL has the leverage in any relocation negotiations.

and who stated that the Coyotes are the franchise in question....

 

[Mightygoose]

As far as the franchise in question. According to the article by John Shannon - who is considered a NHL mouthpiece and through the national media partner for that matter - there were 3 at the time of the article... Arizona, Calgary and Carolina

Houston's NHL bid changes relocation, expansion landscape - Sportsnet.ca

Carolina is off the list via the sale to Dundon....so down to 2.

With Calagry, despite the arena battle the team is still profitable, opposite of Arizona.

There seems to be seem some level of city willingness to restart arena talks... crickets on Arizona's front.

Barroway is looking for new investors and has been for over a year. CSEC are not looking for new investors.

CSEC owns other sports properties in the market. CFL's Stampeders, WHL's Hitmen and NLL's Roughnecks. Also rumored to be involved with the forthcoming soccer team in the CPL. Barroway owns no other properties in the Phoenix market.

CSEC's other properties are not necessarily a barrier to a relocation however, there will be backlash that will affect the other teams by the loss of the biggest team in the market plus the crown jewel in their empire. Doesn't mean it can't happen but the sale price would really have to be worth it. The Coyotes don't have this complication.

This along with Fertitta's apparent reluctance to pay the going rate for a franchise, it would be far less likely for CSEC and Fertitta to reach an agreement price point.

The process of elimination takes it to most are leaning towards

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

As far as the franchise in question. According to the article by John Shannon - who is considered a NHL mouthpiece and through the national media partner for that matter - there were 3 at the time of the article... Arizona, Calgary and Carolina

Houston's NHL bid changes relocation, expansion landscape - Sportsnet.ca

Carolina is off the list via the sale to Dundon....so down to 2.

With Calagry, despite the arena battle the team is still profitable, opposite of Arizona.

There seems to be seem some level of city willingness to restart arena talks... crickets on Arizona's front.

Barroway is looking for new investors and has been for over a year. CSEC are not looking for new investors.

CSEC owns other sports properties in the market. CFL's Stampeders, WHL's Hitmen and NLL's Roughnecks. Also rumored to be involved with the forthcoming soccer team in the CPL. Barroway owns no other properties in the Phoenix market.

CSEC's other properties are not necessarily a barrier to a relocation however, there will be backlash that will affect the other teams by the loss of the biggest team in the market plus the crown jewel in their empire. Doesn't mean it can't happen but the sale price would really have to be worth it. The Coyotes don't have this complication.

This along with Fertitta's apparent reluctance to pay the going rate for a franchise, it would be far less likely for CSEC and Fertitta to reach an agreement price point.

The process of elimination takes it to most are leaning towards

Disagree, and why go through the process of rebranding at all if this is the result

 

[Mightygoose]

Disagree, and why go through the process of rebranding at all if this is the result

Who rebranded recently? The Coyotes name has been around since 1996/current logo since 2003 and the Flames franchise really did change though logo did obviously in 1980.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Who rebranded recently? The Coyotes name has been around since 1996/current logo since 2003 and the Flames franchise really did change though logo did obviously in 1980.

the point is and Arizona fans will tell you implicitly, that team is not on the relocation train.... Barroway stated the franchise is in Arizona because why hasn't it happened since the Bankruptcy then, going back to the Moyes travesty of an ownership

 

[TheLegend]

and who stated that the Coyotes are the franchise in question....

We’re always going to be in question, Hutch.

That’s why we don’t worry about it.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

We’re always going to be in question, Hutch.

That’s why we don’t worry about it.

YOU SHOULDN'T... and Arizona needs to not be brought in to any discussion unless it's well known that Barroway either wants out, or you have another Moyes debacle sidebar part 50 ow whatever, frankly, tbth... these Arizona threads should be toasted, I'm always behind the Coyotes no matter if we had past history or not up here.

 

[Mightygoose]

However, Barroway is looking for new investors. So be not 'want' out, he may 'need' to be out at least in a majority.

The Coyotes are also looking for a new building while in a year to year lease. So yes, they should be in the conversation with the relevant thread ongoing.

The Flames are also wanting a new building with no deal or a active talks going on, also going year to year. They should be in the conversation too even though ownership and the league is saying they're committed to the market too. That thread should stay open as well.

Though I have an opinion which team is in play and have broken down why, would be curious to hear the reasons why others think it's a different one. BTW, I'll disagree with the grow the game and TV contract line of reasoning, since historically it doesn't matter with relocations.

At the end of the day is Fertitta doesn't want to pay close to market rates, nobody will end of going to Houston.

 

[Killion]

YOU SHOULDN'T... and Arizona needs to not be brought in to any discussion unless it's well known that Barroway either wants out, or you have another Moyes debacle sidebar part 50 ow whatever, frankly, tbth... these Arizona threads should be toasted, I'm always behind the Coyotes no matter if we had past history or not up here.

Unbelievable. Quite the post HUTCH. But ya, sure, lets just ignore reality, "Live the Dream" along with former ownership, the Clown Show that was Ice Arizona & now Andrew Barroway. Lets just accept the NHL's narrative on that situation. No problem. Ignore it, nothing to see here folks, move along... I also take offence to your comment in implying that anyone commenting on the Coyotes situation is somehow happy about it, as anyone with even a grain of empathy & compassion understands that its the fans, its the taxpayers & the little guy's that get hurt when a team moves. All anyone wants is some transparency, some honesty; from the League, from Andrew Barroway.

That you cant see through the facade, the deceit, disinformation & lies, thats your problem. That franchise is very much in-play, and we are not about to ignore that FACT. Not a question of Barroway "wanting out" as he hasnt even paid the price of admission nor does he have the wherewithal to do so. Here are some facts for you; that franchise is owned by a private investment banker out of NYC & the League. Its on the block, available. The League, not Andrew Barroway is wearing the Big Boy pants. But if you wanna believe in Fairytales, get all caught up in the web spun by the NHL, that its "Andrews call"... fill your boots.. as misinformed as Fertittas' comments about the Mason-Dixon & hockey in the South.... which is likely nothing more nor less than his sending a message to Bettman that the numbers for the Coyotes let alone Expansion simply dont make sense & that Gary had best be sharpening his pencil.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

Who says the MLB doesn't struggle in Florida? If Miami didn't get hustled so badly the Marlins would be in Montreal and Tampa would be in Portland or vice versa.

And if the Marlins had good ownership, no one would be talking about them "struggling". I can't speak for Tampa Bay.

 

[StreetHawk]

Pretty much my takeaway as well, ya. And even if half that, like if he bought 49% or 51% of the Coyotes for $325M I'd be wondering about him based on what he's saying. Just doesnt strike me as being really "sold" on the game. Passionate. Just that "it would be nice". A long time goal, dream.... whatever thats supposed to mean. I can certainly understand & appreciate his reluctance as frankly I do believe that franchise valuations, what Foley paid, what Seattle's about to pay... hyper inflated. The numbers simply dont pencil out so you need that passion, belief, that the franchise part of an empire that will be a bit of a lost leader for some time but helpful, necessary to other business interests. Not seeing it with this guy.

He may not be a hockey fan. He could be looking at the NHL as simply a business proposition. Does it make financial sense for him? And he does have concerns.

If a team in the South goes to a long bad stretch, how bad will the bottom line be?

Tillman is the only owner who can have a team in Houston, as he controls the revenue streams of the Toyota Centre. I doubt someone else is going to just be a tenant, as they won't generate enough revenue.

 

[Melrose Munch]

no one has answered why fertitta should pay 600m+ for a team when the coyotes are out there for way less. the flames are not making that much money according to their owners as well, hence the need for a new arena.

And if the Marlins had good ownership, no one would be talking about them "struggling". I can't speak for Tampa Bay.

Miami, Atlanta have been known as bad sports markets forever. The Marlins have won 2 world series under different owners. I don't think the problem was ever hockey, I think the big 4 have tried to compete with college football and they have lost besides the NFL.

 

[gstommylee]

He may not be a hockey fan. He could be looking at the NHL as simply a business proposition. Does it make financial sense for him? And he does have concerns.

If a team in the South goes to a long bad stretch, how bad will the bottom line be?

Tillman is the only owner who can have a team in Houston, as he controls the revenue streams of the Toyota Centre. I doubt someone else is going to just be a tenant, as they won't generate enough revenue.

It is important that to have multiple teams in the same facility that they have to have a share arena revenue. Its easily done with common owner among both teams and not separate owners aka the Atlanta thrashers issue.

 

[MNNumbers]

no one has answered why fertitta should pay 600m+ for a team when the coyotes are out there for way less. the flames are not making that much money according to their owners as well, hence the need for a new arena.

Miami, Atlanta have been known as bad sports markets forever. The Marlins have won 2 world series under different owners. I don't think the problem was ever hockey, I think the big 4 have tried to compete with college football and they have lost besides the NFL.

Never mind Fertitta. As has been stated often, at present, there are approximately 400M already invested in the Coyotes between purchase costs and losses. I could go through the maths again, but I won't. 400M is an approximation. It's like that they lose 35M or more each year, when you add in interest on those losses.

I am assuming that the NHL is backing the losses, and that Barroway has an agreement that he won't end up losing his shirt when it's all finished.

So, here's the deal, in my mind. THERE IS NO DISCOUNT FOR A RELOCATION. Fertitta has every right to say "Hey, I'm not paying your going rate for a hockey team, because I don't think they will add enough profit to my building to make it worth my while." He owns the building, after all. And, that gives him leverage, for sure.

But, remember, that's not the only option. We are talking about the Yotes, and the leagues' investment therein. Those are real dollars, every year. And, that's why there is a small window that says that Bettman might turn the Seattle expansion into a Yotes relocation. Or, barring that, there is still a 500M offer from Quebec, even though Jacobs, and some others really don't WANT to do that.

But, in any case, there is no discount for the Coyotes. Play your leverage however you want, you will have to cover their losses, and all that's already invested in the team, to purchase them and relo them

 

[TheLegend]

It is important that to have multiple teams in the same facility that they have to have a share arena revenue. Its easily done with common owner among both teams and not separate owners aka the Atlanta thrashers issue.

Explain the Kings, Lakers and Clippers then. None of them have the same entity owning them (even though AEG does have a share of the Lakers it’s still controlled by the Buss family) yet they managed to exist at the same facility for years without being financially crippled.

Steve Ballmer is looking to move his Clippers out to a new barn in a couple of years but that still doesn’t preclude you cannot have different ownerships coexisting within the same facility.

 

[Mightygoose]

Explain the Kings, Lakers and Clippers then. None of them have the same entity owning them (even though AEG does have a share of the Lakers it’s still controlled by the Buss family) yet they managed to exist at the same facility for years without being financially crippled.

Steve Ballmer is looking to move his Clippers out to a new barn in a couple of years but that still doesn’t preclude you cannot have different ownerships coexisting within the same facility.

NBN team earn allot more revenues compared to their NHL counterparts mainly thanks to big TV money.

In LA, Philly and Boston the buildings are owned by the NHL team so the model works. If the NHL is the renter it makes life much or difficult hence Atlanta, Phoenix (downtown) and the NHL's dependency with the Rockets owner to get into the Houston market.

 

[nhlfan79]

Miami, Atlanta have been known as bad sports markets forever.

When will this myth ever die? Atlanta United sells out every game (45,000+ and over 70,000 when they occasionally open MBS's upper deck), the Falcons have sold out every game since Arthur Blank bought the team 15 years ago, and the Braves at SunTrust Park are a top-10 attendance team. Even the ECHL Gladiators are generally near the top of their league. Don't even get me started on how Atlanta-based college football fans fill up about a dozen major stadiums within a four-hour drive every fall Saturday. (The Hawks are another story.).

The bottom line is we still are getting maligned by a handful of less-than-sold-out Braves first-round, 4 pm start playoff games 20 years ago at the inaccessible-during-rush-hour Turner Field. If you're referring to the post-ASG Thrashers attendance numbers, that issue has been hashed to death here. No fanbase will keep coming when the owners are deliberately and transparently sabotaging the product.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

When will this myth ever die? Atlanta United sells out every game (45,000+ and over 70,000 when they occasionally open MBS's upper deck), the Falcons have sold out every game since Arthur Blank bought the team 15 years ago, and the Braves at SunTrust Park are a top-10 attendance team. Even the ECHL Gladiators are generally near the top of their league. Don't even get me started on how Atlanta-based college football fans fill up about a dozen major stadiums within a four-hour drive every fall Saturday. (The Hawks are another story.).

The bottom line is we still are getting maligned by a handful of less-than-sold-out Braves first-round, 4 pm start playoff games 20 years ago at the inaccessible-during-rush-hour Turner Field. If you're referring to the post-ASG Thrashers attendance numbers, that issue has been hashed to death here. No fanbase will keep coming when the owners are deliberately and transparently sabotaging the product.

No, those were NLCS games you couldn't sell out (conference championship games for the non baseball folks)

A Series of Empty Seats

Atlanta, like basically any city in the Southeast is a bad pro sports town...hell of a college town

 

[Melrose Munch]

Never mind Fertitta. As has been stated often, at present, there are approximately 400M already invested in the Coyotes between purchase costs and losses. I could go through the maths again, but I won't. 400M is an approximation. It's like that they lose 35M or more each year, when you add in interest on those losses.

I am assuming that the NHL is backing the losses, and that Barroway has an agreement that he won't end up losing his shirt when it's all finished.

So, here's the deal, in my mind. THERE IS NO DISCOUNT FOR A RELOCATION. Fertitta has every right to say "Hey, I'm not paying your going rate for a hockey team, because I don't think they will add enough profit to my building to make it worth my while." He owns the building, after all. And, that gives him leverage, for sure.

But, remember, that's not the only option. We are talking about the Yotes, and the leagues' investment therein. Those are real dollars, every year. And, that's why there is a small window that says that Bettman might turn the Seattle expansion into a Yotes relocation. Or, barring that, there is still a 500M offer from Quebec, even though Jacobs, and some others really don't WANT to do that.

But, in any case, there is no discount for the Coyotes. Play your leverage however you want, you will have to cover their losses, and all that's already invested in the team, to purchase them and relo them

But would you rather pay 650 million for a new team or 550 million for the yotes? Even with losses the yotes are not worth 650 million as you say so something has to give.

When will this myth ever die? Atlanta United sells out every game (45,000+ and over 70,000 when they occasionally open MBS's upper deck), the Falcons have sold out every game since Arthur Blank bought the team 15 years ago, and the Braves at SunTrust Park are a top-10 attendance team. Even the ECHL Gladiators are generally near the top of their league. Don't even get me started on how Atlanta-based college football fans fill up about a dozen major stadiums within a four-hour drive every fall Saturday. (The Hawks are another story.).

The bottom line is we still are getting maligned by a handful of less-than-sold-out Braves first-round, 4 pm start playoff games 20 years ago at the inaccessible-during-rush-hour Turner Field. If you're referring to the post-ASG Thrashers attendance numbers, that issue has been hashed to death here. No fanbase will keep coming when the owners are deliberately and transparently sabotaging the product.

No, those were NLCS games you couldn't sell out (conference championship games for the non baseball folks)

A Series of Empty Seats

Atlanta, like basically any city in the Southeast is a bad pro sports town...hell of a college town

I was about to mention this. The problem was never hockey.

 

[MNNumbers]

But would you rather pay 650 million for a new team or 550 million for the yotes? Even with losses the yotes are not worth 650 million as you say so something has to give.

.......

MM- That's a value judgment. Let's parcel it out in detail:
Expansion: 650M, but no minor league affiliation, no front office in place, no nothing, so there is lots more leg-work to do....

Relocation of Yotes: Below average squad (but they had a good 2nd half this year, so it's not the bottom of the barrel), AHL affiliate already in place (Tucson), which supposedly has good players, and some front office.

If you give me my choice, and I can have either in Houston, either one, for 650M, with no Yotes debt load (in other words, all debt is taken care of by my purchase price), it's a tough choice. I say that because the expansion rules can obviously be used to great advantage (see Vegas). Yet, one could also mess that up badly.

The point stands, though. If someone/some place is looking to purchase the Yotes for a relocation, they aren't going to get a discount. The NHL doesn't have a discount to give.