Joey Moss
Registered User
- Aug 29, 2008
- 36,161
- 8,004
Pacioretty - Seguin - Voracek
Landeskog - Galchenyuk - Nichushkin
Jenner
Still no D tho..
Ferraro on the Oilers: "Their model for building the team is clearly flawed."
- Thread starter Kinibo
- Start date
Pacioretty - Seguin - Voracek
Landeskog - Galchenyuk - Nichushkin
Jenner
Still no D tho..
- Jan 22, 2007
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- 7,184
The Oilers biggest problem is a large % of their young core is way too soft.
RNH
Eberle
Yakupov
Schultz
is an extremely soft core. They are talented but none of them play a hard-nosed, aggressive style. And none of them appear to hate losing.
Hall doesn't play soft at all but he is more a "gamer" than a tough player. He isn't afraid to go into the corners and he'll crash the net with reckless abandon, but he isn't the type of player who will line someone up and put them in the 3rd row. He doesn't have any snarl to him.
Perron isn't completely soft, but, again, he doesn't have sandpaper to his game.
Draisaitl isn't soft either, but, like Hall, he is more of a player who uses his size and isn't afraid to get dirty. But he's not an aggressive player... and he's like 11 years old.
Nurse is the one member of the young core who bring some major attitude and jam to the game. The Oilers need more players with his mentality.
RNH
Eberle
Yakupov
Schultz
is an extremely soft core. They are talented but none of them play a hard-nosed, aggressive style. And none of them appear to hate losing.
Hall doesn't play soft at all but he is more a "gamer" than a tough player. He isn't afraid to go into the corners and he'll crash the net with reckless abandon, but he isn't the type of player who will line someone up and put them in the 3rd row. He doesn't have any snarl to him.
Perron isn't completely soft, but, again, he doesn't have sandpaper to his game.
Draisaitl isn't soft either, but, like Hall, he is more of a player who uses his size and isn't afraid to get dirty. But he's not an aggressive player... and he's like 11 years old.
Nurse is the one member of the young core who bring some major attitude and jam to the game. The Oilers need more players with his mentality.
Pros and Cons
Registered User
The Oilers took the BPA every time. It's hard to argue the logic (because it is the safe and majority pick). The problem is the Oilers should have been trading a few of those years and moved down (and added some vet pieces with a top 10,1st round pick)
Every team has picks that have floundered, but not every team had top 5 picks for that many years and didn't improve (Pitt, Chi, LA.....)
LA traded some of the 1st rounders (Bernier, Hickey, Schenn & Boyle)
Pitt traded some of the 1st rounders (Whitney, Staal, Esposito)
Not much substance in those players to this day... so they made good calls in who was subtracted.
Every team has picks that have floundered, but not every team had top 5 picks for that many years and didn't improve (Pitt, Chi, LA.....)
LA traded some of the 1st rounders (Bernier, Hickey, Schenn & Boyle)
Pitt traded some of the 1st rounders (Whitney, Staal, Esposito)
Not much substance in those players to this day... so they made good calls in who was subtracted.
- Jan 22, 2007
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Pros and Cons
Registered User
Yakupov was the "sexy" pick, how do you pass off a goal scoring machine.
Murray was a safe pick for sure.
- Jan 22, 2007
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- 7,184
I guess it depends on what you value. I never believed Yakupov's game would fully translate to the NHL as well as Murray's. Yakupov can still be a real nice offensive player, but I never expected him to be a top player. The comparisons to Ovechkin, Bure and Stamkos, etc. were always far-fetched to me. The Oilers will be smart to trade this kid while he still has value. Let him be good for someone else, cut your losses, and address some needs.
Pros and Cons
Registered User
You are right in someone (offensive) has to go... I just wish it wasn't a guy like Yakupov (who actually cares and has a high offensive ceiling). He is probably the smart trade....but depressing at the same time to think about.
Nostradumbass
Divinity
- Jan 1, 2007
- 5,000
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You seem a little off-base here. Yakupov was the consensus #1 that year and was touted to be as good as or better than Hall.
He is also the member of the young core that pursues contact the most. He's laid out a few guys pretty well and will only do so more as he learns better positioning and gets more comfortable.
I'm not a Yakupov fanboy or anything, but I truly believe the hate for this kid is completely unwarranted.
GretzkytoKurri9917
"LIVE LONG AND PROSPER"
By the fans or by the media?Because all that I remember of Yakupov's draft was of the media saying that Yakupov wasn't going to be as good as the Oiler's first pick(Hall).
All that I can remember is Hall definitely having more hype than both RNH and Yakupov.
- Jan 22, 2007
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Murray was the consensus pick at one point very early on. There were comparisons to him possibly being in the vein of Niedermayer or Bouwmeester. Then Yakupov exploded and overtook Murray on most draft boards. But there was never any talk about him being better than Hall. None. Unless it was the Edmonton media pumping tires. And there were some "draft gurus" on the record of saying they felt Murray would be a better fit for the Oilers and that he would ultimately be the better NHL player. That said, I cannot say that Yakupov wasn't considered the "number 1" by most people, because, you're right, he was.
I don't know if there's any "hate" but there certainly is some criticism, and it's warranted. The truth is, he just seems like a player that is not needed on the Oilers and would potentially flourish someplace else. If the Oilers trade him, they should get a solid return - I'm not suggesting they give him away.
Up the Irons
Registered User
we can argue over which picks/moves were mistakes, but it is inarguable that there crucial mistakes made. Probably in the area of just making picks and doing nothing else.
the core is flawed. until they come to grips with that, the rebuild is doomed.
Pros and Cons
Registered User
Chicago recognized some flaws and got a new coach and built around Toews, Kane, Keith and Seabrook (all draft picks)
LA Recognized some flaws and got a new coach and built around Doughty, Brown and Kopitar (all draft picks)
Pittsburgh recognized some flaws and got a new coach and built around Crosby, Malkin and Fleury (all draft picks)
Boston traded Thornton, gave up on the goalies and got a new coach......
There is something to be said about coaching change based on the talent that is there, build around the core and create a system with the players who are the main.
You build around Hall, Nurse, RNH get the right coach and move forward.
LA Recognized some flaws and got a new coach and built around Doughty, Brown and Kopitar (all draft picks)
Pittsburgh recognized some flaws and got a new coach and built around Crosby, Malkin and Fleury (all draft picks)
Boston traded Thornton, gave up on the goalies and got a new coach......
There is something to be said about coaching change based on the talent that is there, build around the core and create a system with the players who are the main.
You build around Hall, Nurse, RNH get the right coach and move forward.
How can you say Murray would have turned out any better? I dont see a top end piece from that draft that has turned out to be undisputedly better than Nail at this point. Murray has played all of 66 games so far and his development seems to be hampered by injuries. Maybe he'll be better but then again Yak might yet break out. Too soon to tell.
MessierII
Registered User
- Aug 10, 2011
- 27,767
- 16,404
This isn't true at all. Murray was never in the convo until later if anything. Yakupov was consensus top pick after breaking the stings rookie scoring record his first year in North America.
Raab
Registered User
- Oct 6, 2007
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I remember how Yakupov broke Stamkos goal scoring record by a 16 year old and everyone was super excited that we might be getting a mini Ovi.
Raab
Registered User
- Oct 6, 2007
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How is Nurse in the same sentence as RNH or Hall? If anything he's one of our best trading chips for an actual top pairing dman.
Pros and Cons
Registered User
He is the one defender that has the highest potential/ceiling, therefore the hardest to replace. In most trade offers, he is the name others want when picking off our tree.
Up the Irons
Registered User
10-4. their identified core is too large, and that fact has handcuffed them for now 3 years.
Problem is he's several years away from being a top pairing guy at best. At worst he's another 2nd pairing guy and he's probably still several years away from being reliable in that role.
That's the big problem with the rebuild and the model they used. They built from the wing, the easiest position to find decent players for. We've gone through several years and we still havent filled the most important roles on the team. We dont have a top pairing defender, we dont have a #1 goaltender and our #1 center is questionable in that role especially when he has no depth behind him to take off the pressure.
Frank the Tank
The Godfather
One can state that building from defense and goaltending was the best way to rebuild; however, starting with the #1 picks in 2010 then we would have Gudbranson and Larsson instead of Hall and RNH, which would have screwed this organization over ever more. The only realistic case that may prove the wrong choice is Murray over Yakupov, but that is too early to call. Even going back further there is not defenseman picked 10 spots after Paajaarvi that would be an impact top-pairing defender. Perhaps the best case of hindsight being 20-20 is the Oilers do not sign Penner, and perhaps draft one of Myers or Karlsson instead in 2008, or pick Carlson with the Eberle pick.
A lot of it was luck of the draft. Had the Oilers been basement dwellers a year or two earlier, we would have a Doughty, Pietrangelo, Hedman, or OEL to rebuild the team around. Such a caliber of defensemen were not available with the picks the Oilers had from 2008-2011.
- Jan 22, 2007
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You make a valid point here. The issue though is - and it goes back to what I was saying earlier - the Oilers young core is very soft and not foundation material as it stands today.
Let's compare your examples...
Chicago - Toews, Kane, Keith and Seabrook. Kane is the only one here that is purely a skilled, finesse player. Toews is one of the best 200 foot game players on the planet. Keith is full of aggressiveness and spunk. Seabrook is a monster. All 4 of these guys have been through the wars and are physically and mentally tough enough to win multiple Cups.
Los Angeles - Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, Quick. Again, you're looking at tons of heart and character there. And Brown is (was) one of the premier heart-and-soul captains in the league who hit everything in sight for years. None of these guys are soft... at all.
Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, Letang (Staal at the time), Fleury. Not only are Crosby and Malkin two of the most elite offensive weapons in the NHL, they are both far from soft. They get into scrums and never back down from anything. They are horses that carry teams on their backs. Letang is no softie either.
If I were running the Oilers, I would identify my main foundation as Hall, Eberle, Draisaitl and Nurse. Despite the trade rumors, Eberle is one of the last players on the team I'd trade. RNH is also a potential core piece, but I'd be willing to trade him in the "right" deal if push came to shove. But it would take a major blockbuster to do so.
Yakupov, Schultz and Perron are pieces that I would actively shop for players who are better fits and fill pressing needs. Yakupov and Schultz are the two I would shop the most because they both have sexy names and could fetch a good return IMO.
If the Oilers could parlay Yakupov and Schultz into better, 2-way players with more grit and tenacity (even if they're not as talented) it would be a big win for Edmonton long-term.
After making those two trades, you give the new guys a few months then re-access the make-up of the team in the summer.
DareDoiler
Registered User
- Jan 29, 2010
- 363
- 0
I'm not sure I 100% agree with the players you consider core as I would likely swap RNH and Eberle, but I do agree with what you stated.
Our biggest problem is the unwillingness to make meaningful moves. The Oilers have bought in to the hype that they themselves sling out. How much better could we be if we traded some of those draft picks rather than piling on young, similiar players.
Hall's (or Seguin, going back to the draft) we keep for sure. Maybe RNH. But the Yak pick? Why didnt we trade that? The Nurse pick? Why didnt we trade that (particularly early on when it could have been a better pick than it was)? The Drais pick? Why didnt we trade it? This years? I wonder what level of immediate help this years 1st + one of our "core" players could fetch us? Perhaps the thought of McDavid is too good to pass up but I personally would be shopping an idea similiar to this rather than rubbing my hands together planning on the hype I can build around McDavid.
We just hoard all of these players that all require development on sound teams surrounded by sound players. Instead we throw them all together and hope they can all lean on each other. Oh well; the past is the past I guess.
I hope they do recognize a core of 3 or 4 players and trade the rest, whoever they may be. Hoping that Hall, RNH, Eberle, Yak, Schultz, Drais, Nurse, + whatever else sticks to the wall (Klef, Hunt, Marc, whoever else) all miraculously have their stellar year at the same moment is infuriating.
- Jan 22, 2007
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- 7,184
And, to add to your good point even further...
Even the best young cores need sufficient pieces and leadership around them. Perhaps the Kings were the best at doing exactly what you described above - they identified the right core and made the bold moves when ready. The traded some of their younger assets like Schenn and Simmonds to get a proven leader in Mike Richards. Then they traded another young asset in Jack Johnson to get Jeff Carter. When they added Richards and Carter to their identified core of Kopitar, Doughty, Brown and Quick, they were able to win the cheese.
Like you said - the Oilers keep stockpiling all these young players and hoping they'll all blossom at once into this dynasty. The problem is, you have too many of the same player types (finesse) and need different dynamics and solid, veteran leadership mixed in.
DareDoiler
Registered User
- Jan 29, 2010
- 363
- 0
Exactly. And I know it's all been talked about to death, and I recognize its likely difficult to get quality players to come to this city (especially considering the state of our team). It's unlikely we get a Mike Richards to come here in our current state. But try dammit (maybe they are? I dunno)! These players (I hope!) have some kind of trade value, dont they? Next years pick definitely has value?
Get some meat and potatoes guys into this lineup. I mean hell, most teams have like 1 or 2 rookie(ish) players on their whole team, and we have like 1 or 2 per line. And even those that I guess arent rookies (Hall, RNH, etc) had to just hammer through their rookie years without support.
I mean; even if we somehow did get McDavid (heaven help him), what will that accomplish? I would think that even on a "good" team it would take a couple years for him to find his stride (and no doubt dominate), and thats with a proper support system through some vets, as well as a winning culture/expectation coursing through the team. How long would it take on the Oilers?
Moose Coleman
Registered User
- Apr 12, 2012
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*SPITS MILK OVER KEYBOARD*
Mike Richards and Jeff Carter? The Skipper and Gilligan of Dry Island?
Except the Oilers draft so poorly they don't have any decent assets outside of the high picks to parlay for veteran talent. the one time they did, we landed Perron. But beyond that, there's not much there.
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