News Article: Felger: Unlike Blackhawks, B's aren't getting what they paid for

[Mathews28]

Boston's stats are boosted by having drafted a 2nd and a 9th who make up a good number of those games played. Meanwhile Chicago's highest picks in the same time frame are both 18th over all. So to conclude that they draft equally well is as ridiculous as the rest of your argument .

I'll have to respectfully disagree. My premise is that there has not been a huge difference in Boston's draft history vs. Chicago's and that other forces are equally responsible for differences between where the 2 teams are right now. As I mentioned:

Chicago
2006 - Toews - 3rd Overall
2007 - Kane - 1st overall
2008 - not much
2009 - 2014 Shaw, Saad, Clendening, Kevin Hayes

Boston
2006 Lucic, Kessel (5th overall), Marchand
2007 zip
2008 Colbourne, Hutchinson...both gone
2009-2014 Dougie, Seguin (2nd overall) , Spooner, Pasta

To say Chicago didn't benefit from high picks is just wrong. They parlayed years of suk into Towes and Kane. Fact is, look at the list, there's just simply not the massive difference in the two teams draft history that some want to believe.

As for games played, the reason it's used as a measure of draft success is because other stats are difficult to rely on. Goals, assists, points? Doesn't hold up, one team may be drafting more forwards, another D-men. So GP becomes a useful stat.

Either way...and eyeballs on the list of draftees or using something like GP...in my eyes there is NOT a huge difference between the 2 teams ability to draft over the time period I have covered. I realize some may disagree, and that's to be expected, but I haven't seen a reasonable argument that supports that Chicago has been head and heels better at drafting.

 

[Man Rocket]

How are the Blackhawks doing? How have the Cap issues hurt them in the least? Didn't they repeat after dismantling their bottom 6 and bottom 3 D?

The Blackhawks have gotten FAR MORE out of their dollar than the Bruins.

Everyone says how great the Bruins have been with a Cup, cup loss and President's trophy...

Hey, how about WINNING two cups, and losing in two conference FINALS in the past 6 years?

They pay guys like Sharp and Hossa, while we would rather spend 3 mil on this guy, and 1,9 mil on this guy and 1.5 mil on this shaft...nickels to dimes and all that.

They do way better building a team, and a farm system and it's not debatable IMO..

I agree with this post, especially the bolded.

 

[LouJersey]

I agree with this post, especially the bolded.

They have superstars and then all stars. We have all stars then dime a dozen guys, save for 2011.

Toews, Kane and Keith are all top 5 in their position.

Support guys like Sharp, Hossa, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson are next level types.

They get scoring from their third line. Versteeg puts up 14. Shaw 15.

The goalie sucks, but last I recall he beat us in 6 games.

Then you have a guy like Saad on an entry level deal getting 20+ and 50+, and a savvy veteran like Richards taking less money (with no dead cap next year) to be a part of it.

They just get it.

 

[JOKER 192]

I'll have to respectfully disagree. My premise is that there has not been a huge difference in Boston's draft history vs. Chicago's and that other forces are equally responsible for differences between where the 2 teams are right now. As I mentioned:

Chicago
2006 - Toews - 3rd Overall
2007 - Kane - 1st overall
2008 - not much
2009 - 2014 Shaw, Saad, Clendening, Kevin Hayes

Boston
2006 Lucic, Kessel (5th overall), Marchand
2007 zip
2008 Colbourne, Hutchinson...both gone
2009-2014 Dougie, Seguin (2nd overall) , Spooner, Pasta

To say Chicago didn't benefit from high picks is just wrong. They parlayed years of suk into Towes and Kane. Fact is, look at the list, there's just simply not the massive difference in the two teams draft history that some want to believe.

As for games played, the reason it's used as a measure of draft success is because other stats are difficult to rely on. Goals, assists, points? Doesn't hold up, one team may be drafting more forwards, another D-men. So GP becomes a useful stat.

Either way...and eyeballs on the list of draftees or using something like GP...in my eyes there is NOT a huge difference between the 2 teams ability to draft over the time period I have covered. I realize some may disagree, and that's to be expected, but I haven't seen a reasonable argument that supports that Chicago has been head and heels better at drafting.

First of all I always debate respectfully (though it may not always come off that way) and it's good to see you do too.

But now you changed the time frame. why not go back to the 90's then? Come on, you set the time frame from 2009 to 2014. You set that time frame, not me . Now your changing it, why is that? Could it be because you were wrong?

 

[DaBroons]

Agreed. Those drafts from 07-09 killed this team. PC fired a bunch of guys and now the 2010 guys like Spooner and Trotman are coming up and doing what we wish guys were doing in previous years. He got fired because Neely never wanted him. The 07-09 drafts were the excuse, but the problem is fixed. For the record, I have no problem with letting PC go, but he is a very good GM on the balance, and will win in EDM just like he did here.

I agree with everything you said except for the reason he was fired. He did a great job completing the roster to win the cup. No question about it and he is a very good GM.

The problem is that since the cup, his trend has been very downward. Selling low and buying high. Only Bergeron and maybe Marchand have given the Broons hometown discounts. He got Seguin on a very good 2nd contract, but then traded him. Too many overpriced and market value players and no-trade clauses.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

I'll have to respectfully disagree. My premise is that there has not been a huge difference in Boston's draft history vs. Chicago's and that other forces are equally responsible for differences between where the 2 teams are right now. As I mentioned:

Chicago
2006 - Toews - 3rd Overall
2007 - Kane - 1st overall
2008 - not much
2009 - 2014 Shaw, Saad, Clendening, Kevin Hayes

Boston
2006 Lucic, Kessel (5th overall), Marchand
2007 zip
2008 Colbourne, Hutchinson...both gone
2009-2014 Dougie, Seguin (2nd overall) , Spooner, Pasta

To say Chicago didn't benefit from high picks is just wrong. They parlayed years of suk into Towes and Kane. Fact is, look at the list, there's just simply not the massive difference in the two teams draft history that some want to believe.

As for games played, the reason it's used as a measure of draft success is because other stats are difficult to rely on. Goals, assists, points? Doesn't hold up, one team may be drafting more forwards, another D-men. So GP becomes a useful stat.

Either way...and eyeballs on the list of draftees or using something like GP...in my eyes there is NOT a huge difference between the 2 teams ability to draft over the time period I have covered. I realize some may disagree, and that's to be expected, but I haven't seen a reasonable argument that supports that Chicago has been head and heels better at drafting.

Curious but why did you include Colborne + Hutchinson for B's in 08 but ignore Ben Smith who has played 175 NHL games and is NHL regular for Hawks 08 draft?

Also guys like Pirri and Olsen have gone on to play 100+ NHL games elsewhere but were 2009 Hawk picks. Also you left Marcus Kruger off your list who has had a very good career in NHL up to this point and was drafted by Hawks in 2009

You also left off Nordstrom on Hawks 2010 draft. He isn't a big production guy but has proven this year to be capable 4th liner and is good bet to become a regular on Hawks in that role going forward. So if Spooner is worth mentioning for B's then Nordstrom is worth mentioning for Hawks

As for 09-14 ,, If you look at Hawks roster the kids drafted in 1st round have been blocked but have started to get feet wet in NHL

Teuvo Teravainen (2012 1st rounder) = 37 games played in NHL
Ryan Hartman (2013 1st rounder) = 5 games played in NHL
Phillip Danault (2011 1st rounder) = 2 games played in NHL
Mark McNeill (2011 1st rounder) = yet to play in NHL

Schmaltz (2014 1st) is playing in NCAA , Hayes (2010 1st) departed as UFA after NCAA , Olsen (2009 1st) was traded

Some of the Hawks higher tier prospects drafted from 2010-2014 have been NCAA/SEL

Kevin Hayes (2010 1st rounder) = Went 4 years in NCAA then left Hawks as UFA
Stephen Johns (2010 2nd rounder) = Went 4 years in NCAA then completed 1st year of professional hockey this year in AHL
Michael Paliotta (2011 3rd round) = Went 4 years in NCAA and just signed professional contract (Played 1 game for Hawks)
Chris Calnan (2012 3rd rounder) = Still in NCAA
Vincent Hinostroza (2012 6th rounder) = Attended ND ,, Just signed contract with Hawks

Almost every Hawks pick in 2013 and 2014 drafts is playing in NCAA or Europe

Hawks have had no top 10 picks in 09-14 period while B's have had 2 (Seguin and Hamilton). If Hawks had 2 top 10 picks they likely would have been given fast track to NHL so its not a good comparable

B's have had open roster spots for kids to compete in recent years. Hawks have not but will finally have spots open

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Actually a better breakdown of 08-14 comparable

Since 2008 NHL draft (Hawks) guys to play 20+ NHL games

Marcus Kruger (2009 5th) = 287 NHL games
Andrew Shaw (2011 5th) = 244 NHL games
Brandon Saad (2011 2nd) = 208 NHL games
Ben Smith (2008 6th) = 175 NHL games
Dylan Olsen (2009 1st) = 116 NHL games
Brandon Pirri (2009 2nd) = 105 NHL Games
Kevin Hayes (2010 1st) = 79 NHL games
Joakim Nordstrom (2010 3rd) = 54 NHL games
Tuevo Teravainen (2012 1st) = 37 NHL games
Klas Dahlbeck (2011 3rd) = 23 NHL games
Adam Clendening (2011 2nd) = 21 NHL games

Since 2008 NHL draft (Bruins) guys to play 20+ NHL games

Tyler Seguin (2010 1st) = 354 NHL games
Douglie Hamilton (2011 1st) = 178 NHL games
Joe Colborne (2008 1st) = 160 NHL games
Jordan Caron (2009 1st) = 153 NHL games
Ryan Spooner (2010 2nd) = 56 NHL games
David Pastrnak (2014 1st) = 46 NHL games
Craig Cunningham (2010 4th) = 53 NHL games
Seth Griffith (2012 5th) = 30 NHL games
Zach Trotman (2010 7th) = 29 NHL games

Bold = 1st rounder

Hawks have done better job of finding talent outside of 1st round then B's

 

[Mathews28]

First of all I always debate respectfully (though it may not always come off that way) and it's good to see you do too.

But now you changed the time frame. why not go back to the 90's then? Come on, you set the time frame from 2009 to 2014. You set that time frame, not me . Now your changing it, why is that? Could it be because you were wrong?

No, look back a few pages and see the post where I included 2009-2014 and 2006,7,8. Was just reiterating.

Someone has since posted more of the Chicago picks from all the years I mentioned and that's good data. I did leave out some good Chicago picks. There are Bruins picks that I left out also.l, but Depending on how detailed and inclusive the list is, how someone wants to identify an NHL contributor, you can make a case that one team has better draft success than another, but it's still a bit subjective and the Bruins problems are much more involved than they don't draft well.

 

[JOKER 192]

No, look back a few pages and see the post where I included 2009-2014 and 2006,7,8. Was just reiterating.

Someone has since posted more of the Chicago picks from all the years I mentioned and that's good data. I did leave out some good Chicago picks. There are Bruins picks that I left out also.l, but Depending on how detailed and inclusive the list is, how someone wants to identify an NHL contributor, you can make a case that one team has better draft success than another, but it's still a bit subjective and the Bruins problems are much more involved than they don't draft well.

there we go we agree on something. I did make 3 points not just the one and there are more.

 

[LouJersey]

Pretty silly even including the Bruins in the same sentence as Chicago now ...

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Pretty silly even including the Bruins in the same sentence as Chicago now ...

But the Bruins have as many Presidents trophy wins in the last 10 years

 

[Randomtask68]

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but the Hawks also benefit massively from having both Duncan Keith and Marian Hossa in the $5.5 million cap hit range. That's pretty significant in terms of maximizing their cap space with a top pairing defenseman and top line forward. Considering their success I think you would have to say that they benefited the most from those "cap circumvention" type contracts, with the Kings being a close second with Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. This is an advantage they will continue to benefit from for years and cannot be replicated with the new CBA rules outlawing these types of deals. It is possible that Hossa's contract could be a detriment in 3+ years if he contemplates retirement with the recapture penalty, but the risk will be worth it as they've won 2 Stanley Cups and have now been to 5 Conference Finals in a 7 year span.

 

[Over the volcano]

Pretty silly even including the Bruins in the same sentence as Chicago now ...

Hopefully in a couple weeks they'll be in the same sentence along with "Dineen" and "new head coach."

 

[Fire Sweeney]

There is Chicago and every one else now. Just an amazing run, and retooling. Shows that you keep the elite guys, and build around them with lower priced foot soldiers and you can do it..

Farm system is pretty decent it seems as well. And they will easily find a suitor for Sharp who performs in the play-offs...I look for him to go to FLA , who is another team that will probably leap from us next season.

I think he's going to Montreal... Bergevin knows him and needs some skill in the top 6.

 

[TMac21]

Randomtask makes a good point on locking up some key guys years ago to sweetheart cap deals. Certainly helps.