Fehr and Loathing in Lost Wages (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part XV

[rdawg1234]

The players will be at 50% on new contracts going fwd. This is about honoring the old contracts.

It doesn't matter what the agents came up with. No one forced the owners to sign these deals (once again, accountability). They did so, because it cost them less money to retain the players they signed. Why should they get off the hook, exactly?

cant leave all the blame on the owners, guys parise saying he'll only accept 12 year+ deals kind of force a teams hand. Same with the weber situation(pay his contract or continue with mediocre play.)

but yes it is mostly their fault, and how are they gonna accoutn for it? Well half the rules they want are crippling and attacking those kinds of deals, the owners actually proposed that they continue to get hit by the cap after the player retires, that they arent allowed longer contracts. They want to fix the loophole, otherwise they wouldnt offer it.

 

[ColdSteel2]

I think this accurately describes both sides.

It describes the owners every single time. This time, the players got tired of it.

 

[rdawg1234]

Serious as a heart attack and if he keeps this line of thinking, he will win. And it will be more than 50-50, at least initially.

Why doesnt he just offer 54 or 55% linked for the players in the first year and then 52% in the second then 50% for remainder? Why hold out and wait for the owners to make that offer, that could take along time( I really do think the owners are at the edge of where they want to go.)

 

[Fugu]

That money was just to make his contract "whole" from last season. Damn greedy owners.

That money was to bring up the players' share to 57%, not a penny more nor less.

As a rate, their share hasn't changed since revenues hit $2.7 billion.

 

[Orrthebest]

Do you think the other money helped him make that decision?

No, he took less money so the team could afford better players to play with him. This increases the chance of him winning more Stanley Cups. Winning more Cups gives him a greater legacy. For Crosby leaving a great legacy behind was more important than a few extra million that he has no need for.

 

[Tra La La]

"Make whole" won't be coming back The players will end up at 50% flat via escrow. They blew it.

 

[bp13]

"It's pretty difficult, quite frankly, to come to a conclusion as to what in the world the owners expected the players to do given the positions that they took. Remember, it's massive concessions last time, enormously increased revenues, no real articulation of why they want what they want except that somebody got it in the other sports, they mumble about fair opportunity to make a profit everywhere but there's no specifics attached to that," he said. "… So when we ask the question to players, when they ask it of me, when we ask it across the table, when we ask it to people in your business (media), what is there in this deal for the players? Everybody sort of looks up at the stars and scratches their heads and no answers come forth. So it's hard to figure out. Maybe this is all part of an orchestrated approach."

The continuation of their livelihoods, you **** ***!

Is this guy serious?

"Oh, but they can play in Europe, the AHL..."

Spare me.

Not sure how you come at it this way.

He's simply saying "We gave a ton in the last negotiation. Since then, revenue has gone way up. Now you're asking for us to give even more. What's the incentive for us?"

I think it makes complete sense and it's been my question all along. I mean apparently all the owners have to do is cry poor and everyone just assumes they're shooting straight. I'm pretty sure the players didn't form a union with the intent of just ceding to owners demands every time they make them.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Why doesnt he just offer 54 or 55% linked for the players in the first year and then 52% in the second then 50% for remainder? Why hold out and wait for the owners to make that offer, that could take along time( I really do think the owners are at the edge of where they want to go.)

They wouldn't accept that. What needs to happen is a lost season because at least half of these owners are making money and are going to say enough is enough. The players lose money too but they seem ready to weather the storm.

 

[ONO94]

Poor players and poor owners....fact is both of them are fighting over who gets to spend your money (and mine). On the owner side, they pay a higher percentage of revenue to their players than any other major sport in North America, on top of having to pay more for land, rent, taxes and everything else associated with running a business. Of course the NHLPA doesn't want to listen, because they only see revenues going up and don't really care about the rest of it.

On the player side, they just want the money--as much as you and I want to believe they would just play for fun--they wouldn't. They see revenue and they want as much as they can get because they are what people come to see and they can't play forever. And they don't trust the owners because they were in the same spot in 2004 but nothing seems to have been worked out during this time.

Personally, until the revenues are split in the NHL like the are in other sports, I don't think the players really have a leg to stand on. What they are "giving-up" aren't concessions, they are market corrections. Would you give 4-7% more in taxes to the government than your neighbor and feel good about it?

 

[vladmyir111]

There's more than 20 stars in the NHL though. And it's highly, highly doubtful the North American born players want to play over there for more than a year. Not to mention the rumors of poor quality help behind the scenes(the health benefits and other benefits are just far better in the NHL.)

The KHL will never be NHL sized and will never have the crosby's, getzlafs, Stamkos's, Tavares etc. for numerous reasons, especially because they probably dont want to have to learn Russian for the rest of their career.

I agree it won't happen because the lockout will be done within the next month or so and you are right that most Canadians will not play in Russia for the principle of the matter just to stuff it to the NHL.

I was just pointing out that money is not a factor they don't have a union squeezing out millions for salaries to guys that can barely skate better then some 15 year olds. They can pay 10 20 or 40 top tier stars and pack 1 to 2 big stars per team. The rest will be crap dudes kind of like half the NHL.

 

[NHLFanSince2020]

Serious as a heart attack and if he keeps this line of thinking, he will win. And it will be more than 50-50, at least initially.

You cheering on Fehr like he's your hero too?

So ridiculous.

I and I think 99.99% of the hockey world just like to see what's fair and to see the NHL back, not caring to see who WINS or LOSES.

 

[Milhouse40]

The owners should fix their mistakes, but they seem to want to do it without taking accountability.

Mistake?.....what mistakes?

Salary cap did what it was expecting to do
Gives a chance to every team. Put an end to the dynasties.

They did a really good marketing job, so good they had record revenues.
Winter Classics generated an enormous amount of revenues (Owner's idea)

Is that their mistakes that jet fuel as risen from $1.68 US/gallon to $3.22 right now?
Is that a mistakes that medical care cost more?
Is that a mistakes that hotel rooms cost more?

Even the waterboy cost more than it did in 2005.

They only mistakes they did is to give too much money to the players to knock some sense out of them to end to lokcout and showed them that the salary cap would help THE GAME OF HOCKEY...and it did!

They did give some stupid contracts........but those contracts became only stupid when the player did not deliver the goods (althought the owners are forced to deliver the goods to that player).

But still, the owners offers a deal, in the end of that deal the players will have a salary of 22% to 24% more than what they were doing last year (Do you get 25% raises over the next 5 years?....and scream around that your boss screw you?).

 

[ColdSteel2]

You cheering on Fehr like he's your hero too?

So ridiculous.

I and I think 99.99% of the hockey world just like to see what's fair and to see the NHL back, not caring to see who WINS or LOSES.

Fair being the key word. I don't want to see the players get screwed just so I can watch hockey. That wouldn't be fair. I'm also not going to take the tired stance of "well they make millions anyway, what's the big deal about taking less?" The earned MORE and are still going to take LESS, that's where it ends for me. They need to take a hard line on this.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Current contracts don't last forever (well some almost do, but these owners tried to circumvent the cap, so why should they be let off the hook? Again, accountability.)

That's not what I asked Jiggy.

Many NHL teams are losing money, which means they have to cut costs. What costs do you suggest they cut if they aren't allowed to cut player's salaries?

 

[ColdSteel2]

Mistake?.....what mistakes?

Salary cap did what it was expecting to do
Gives a chance to every team. Put an end to the dynasties.

The salary cap was put in to insure the players could only make so much and for cost certainty, nothing more. Yes, the level playing field is a side effect, like it or not.

 

[bp13]

You cheering on Fehr like he's your hero too?

So ridiculous.

I and I think 99.99% of the hockey world just like to see what's fair and to see the NHL back, not caring to see who WINS or LOSES.

Actually it's probably 100%. The trick is that somehow the owners have managed to define "fair" in the court of public opinion. this is all DESPITE the fact that the court of public ruled almost unanimously that the PA took it in the tailpipe during the last negotiation.

From my standpoint, the NHL hired a PR guy and they came up with the 50/50 press conference idea (buried the details) and bang, the public lapped it up.

 

[Krishna]

You cheering on Fehr like he's your hero too?

So ridiculous.

I and I think 99.99% of the hockey world just like to see what's fair and to see the NHL back, not caring to see who WINS or LOSES.

It really shouldn't be who wins or loses though. They should be working together to get an even deal. Still can't figure out why they don't realize this.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

1. It's called a lockout. The CBA is enforced until a new one is negotiated. Hence Fehr saying they should lift the lockout and play while a new one is negotiated.

2. The owners are artificially lowering the cap. The difference in the percentage between old and new doesn't have to be charged to the cap.

When Fehr stated that they should play another year under the existing CBA, it would have to signed off on by both parties. The NHL did not do this because the existing CBA does not work. I think we are arguing semantics on this but I would really like to know if the existing CBA carries any weight at all or if they are starting from scratch. I haven't been able to find any information on it. Does anyone know?

2. Once again, it sounds like the players cap hit is not going to count at it's full weight which does not work.

 

[mouser]

Post limit, new thread here:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1275649