Fehr and Loathing in Lost Wages (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part XV

[GoSensGo6172]

The players just don't give a damn, this time it's their way or the high way or there won't be any new proposal. So just more of this PR back and forth. Pathetic!! The owners will chew them up, they won't care. They could take this all the way to the beginning of December if they want, and even than it's kind of scary that they don't mind scrapping the winter classic. Just awful news all around.

 

[guyincognito]

Yeah, "plugged-in" doesn't mean alot. Those are the guys who are involved and talking and you already know what you think. It seems a suspicious amount of those guys have already been paid half or more of their yearly salary, so what do they care? If I make $4M a year and they're paying me $2M to sit at home, I can kinda live with that.

 

[ColdSteel2]

I'm trying to imagine the limited intelligence and shriveled imagination it would require to countenance any possible scenario in which one, and only one, of these two sides are "the greedy scum bags."

I'm really trying. It's not coming easily.

Amen. I'm looking at everyone on the owners side and thinking the exact same thing.

 

[Nanuk23]

Interesting comments from Dan Boyle

Kevin Kurz ‏@KKurzCSN
Boyle: “It’s supposed to be a negotiation, and I think right now both sides think it’s their way of the highway." Yes, he said BOTH sides.

 

[LukeD]

EDIT: above beat me to the punch!

 

[Ari91]

It's definitely not encouraging...but it's all hard to tell how much of this sort of stuff is true or how much of it is PR, designed to "scare" the other side (sort of how I wonder the same thing when I read tweets, etc. from the media who tend to be NHL mouthpieces)

Agreed. We can't trust what either side says to the media because it's expected that they'll have fighting words to support their position.

The league has suggested that they're going back to the drawing board to figure out a new proposal. Who the hell knows when we'll ever see it though.

 

[Krishna]

EDIT: above beat me to the punch!

So say something to the damn player reps.

 

[guyincognito]

Interesting comments form Dan Boyle

Kevin Kurz ‏@KKurzCSN
Boyle: “It’s supposed to be a negotiation, and I think right now both sides think it’s their way of the highway." Yes, he said BOTH sides.

No signing bonus. There's a surprise.

 

[Hanklite*]

I would ignore anything Dater says. He just posts whatever to get more hits to his site. He is usually completely wrong.

 

[vladmyir111]

Definitely didnt make that much, Radulov made around 8 million a year and hes probably the biggest star there.

yes crosby could make anything he wanted but A: he probably does not want to live in russia for the next while.

B: the league probably makes 1/3rd of the profits/revenues of the NHL and will never get anywhere close to the NHL's profits/revenues. Thus they cannot afford to pay all the nhl stars.

There is no serious, major competition for Canadian and American NHL stars, russians/europeans maybe, but really, it's NHL or some random swiss league where they'll get half the money at best.

See you're mistaken about one thing, and that is the misled belief that they cannot afford to pay for the top stars. They most certainly can. The problem they DONT have is 400 fringe NHLers all making 1mil plus. So they can easily afford to pay the top 20 world talents 10+mil a year since the rest of the team is making ****.

If you think the NHL is what it is because of the Mike Rupps and Scott Gomezs making millions you are sorely mistaken.

 

[ColdSteel2]

I love this quote from Fehr, sums up my thoughts on the whole thing:

"It's pretty difficult, quite frankly, to come to a conclusion as to what in the world the owners expected the players to do given the positions that they took. Remember, it's massive concessions last time, enormously increased revenues, no real articulation of why they want what they want except that somebody got it in the other sports, they mumble about fair opportunity to make a profit everywhere but there's no specifics attached to that," he said. "… So when we ask the question to players, when they ask it of me, when we ask it across the table, when we ask it to people in your business (media), what is there in this deal for the players? Everybody sort of looks up at the stars and scratches their heads and no answers come forth. So it's hard to figure out. Maybe this is all part of an orchestrated approach."

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1) I am under the assumption that there is no CBA in place at this time. How are players allowed to play overseas if the CBA is active?

2) So what you are saying is, the players are paid using variable percentages based off off of their old contracts. This allows the players to get paid more than their cap hit. Have fun getting all the teams to sign off on that. That instantly creates a grievance between the owners and shatters the whole "level playing field" strategy that the CAP was supposed to create. That....doesn't....work.

1. It's called a lockout. The CBA is enforced until a new one is negotiated. Hence Fehr saying they should lift the lockout and play while a new one is negotiated.

2. The owners are artificially lowering the cap. The difference in the percentage between old and new doesn't have to be charged to the cap.

 

[T-Funk]

I'd say a job, respect of the fans, and money for their families is in it for the players.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

How foolish.

There is not a chance that the NHLPA can win if their strategy is to try and bleed the NHL out.

The owners primary means of income is not the operation of a professional hockey team. It's either a pet project or a slight boost to the vast amount of wealth they already have.

Conversely, the players are reliant on hockey as a means of income. The vast majority have nothing past a high school education.

The NHLPA already has less leverage in negotiation with the NHL now, and that will soon pass when the WC deadline is passed. What can they say/do to the owners that can force the owners' hand? Accept our offer or don't get the opportunity to pay us and lose money?

By the end of this year, most of the NHLPA (and the public) will be calling for Fehr's head as they have little recourse than to accept whatever the NHL offers.

It's like the Civil War. The NHL has the resources to just bleed the PA dry, regardless of the costs to itself. A drawn out negotiation is the last thing the PA should seek.

 

[Ari91]

Interesting comments form Dan Boyle

Kevin Kurz ‏@KKurzCSN
Boyle: “It’s supposed to be a negotiation, and I think right now both sides think it’s their way of the highway." Yes, he said BOTH sides.

You hit the nail right on the head Boyle. Both sides are presenting frameworks which they refuse to shake and that implies a 'you have to do it my way'. Though I think one side has more leverage to impose their framework than the other side.

 

[CerebralGenesis]

Their take was the last CBA and profits where they made too much money to match the rise in revenues. Yes they could continue making more and taking more but it would probably kill the competitiveness of the league. But of course the high end players and PA don't care. Keep pouting, why negotiate?

 

[Hanklite*]

From Eklunds sources (grain of salt firmly in hand)

"If the Union were to say.'We'll go 50-50 with a 1-2 year transition, what other players rights would you give us?' That would get us to the table right now."

So is that saying the NHL is willing to go 53.. 51.. 50/50?

 

[wilty00]

Interesting comments from Dan Boyle

Kevin Kurz ‏@KKurzCSN
Boyle: “It’s supposed to be a negotiation, and I think right now both sides think it’s their way of the highway." Yes, he said BOTH sides.

Not suprising. I'd be even less suprised if there wasn't a huge contingent of players Boyle's age who want to hit the ice for one reason or another be it to get their last chance at a cup or cash those last cheques.

To be quite honest those players may be the only hope at ending this thing.

 

[rdawg1234]

See you're mistaken about one thing, and that is the misled belief that they cannot afford to pay for the top stars. They most certainly can. The problem they DONT have is 400 fringe NHLers all making 1mil plus. So they can easily afford to pay the top 20 world talents 10+mil a year since the rest of the team is making ****.

If you think the NHL is what it is because of the Mike Rupps and Scott Gomezs making millions you are sorely mistaken.

There's more than 20 stars in the NHL though. And it's highly, highly doubtful the North American born players want to play over there for more than a year. Not to mention the rumors of poor quality help behind the scenes(the health benefits and other benefits are just far better in the NHL.)

The KHL will never be NHL sized and will never have the crosby's, getzlafs, Stamkos's, Tavares etc. for numerous reasons, especially because they probably dont want to have to learn Russian for the rest of their career.

 

[NHLFanSince2020]

"It's pretty difficult, quite frankly, to come to a conclusion as to what in the world the owners expected the players to do given the positions that they took. Remember, it's massive concessions last time, enormously increased revenues, no real articulation of why they want what they want except that somebody got it in the other sports, they mumble about fair opportunity to make a profit everywhere but there's no specifics attached to that," he said. "… So when we ask the question to players, when they ask it of me, when we ask it across the table, when we ask it to people in your business (media), what is there in this deal for the players? Everybody sort of looks up at the stars and scratches their heads and no answers come forth. So it's hard to figure out. Maybe this is all part of an orchestrated approach."

The continuation of their livelihoods, you **** ***!

Is this guy serious?

"Oh, but they can play in Europe, the AHL..."

Spare me.

 

[Iggy77]

Not suprising. I'd be even less suprised if there wasn't a huge contingent of players Boyle's age who want to hit the ice for one reason or another be it to get their last chance at a cup or cash those last cheques.

To be quite honest those players may be the only hope at ending this thing.

I don't think there's enough of them willing to be a dissenting voice against the rest of the union. Things would have to be real bad for them to actually speak.

 

[ColdSteel2]

"It's pretty difficult, quite frankly, to come to a conclusion as to what in the world the owners expected the players to do given the positions that they took. Remember, it's massive concessions last time, enormously increased revenues, no real articulation of why they want what they want except that somebody got it in the other sports, they mumble about fair opportunity to make a profit everywhere but there's no specifics attached to that," he said. "… So when we ask the question to players, when they ask it of me, when we ask it across the table, when we ask it to people in your business (media), what is there in this deal for the players? Everybody sort of looks up at the stars and scratches their heads and no answers come forth. So it's hard to figure out. Maybe this is all part of an orchestrated approach."

The continuation of their livelihoods, you **** ***!

Is this guy serious?

Serious as a heart attack and if he keeps this line of thinking, he will win. And it will be more than 50-50, at least initially.

 

[Fugu]

Is that your honest assessment of the economics of major sports leagues in America?

The NHL is much more on par with the NBA. Never will reach the MLB or NFL level. To say that the MLB model works for them, why cant it work for the NHL is laughable. MLB has mega tv deals and gate revenue because it is played 162 times a season and has been Americas pastime...

The NHL needs a hard cap, if you can recall prior to the 2004 season when teams were losing money like crazy.

The NHL will never generate enough revenue to be distributed to the poorer teams like the MLB does.

You know what's laughable then is the NHL commissioner citing the NFL as the reason to follow an industry trend. Maybe he should look at all the industry trends.

Maybe you should pass that on to him.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

This has little to do with cap circumventing contracts and everything to do with players getting 57% and dropping them down to 50%

Players demanded such cap circumventing contracts so theywould get most of their money before a possible rollback in the next CBA. I believe it was an agent (Larry Kelly ?) who devised the first such contract no ?

The players will be at 50% on new contracts going fwd. This is about honoring the old contracts.

It doesn't matter what the agents came up with. No one forced the owners to sign these deals (once again, accountability). They did so, because it cost them less money to retain the players they signed. Why should they get off the hook, exactly?

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

The players just don't give a damn, this time it's their way or the high way or there won't be any new proposal. So just more of this PR back and forth. Pathetic!! The owners will chew them up, they won't care. They could take this all the way to the beginning of December if they want, and even than it's kind of scary that they don't mind scrapping the winter classic. Just awful news all around.

I think this accurately describes both sides.