Fedorov vs. Selanne

[sr edler]

Still one of the most shocking and incredible seasons. It's up there:

38 games with a 1.56 GAA and a 94% save. Dude, that's nutty numbers. It's some of the best ever put up for a goalie. We have seen Vezina winners out of such numbers. It's two NHL records right there.

Remember, it's a season not a player.

Then why didn't he win the Vezina if his season was so great? He didn't even finish top 3, he got one first hand vote and finished 5th. You look too much at stats and numbers. The game is played on the ice within a context, not in a vacuum. You could have said Hasek. Or even Theodore. That at least would have made some sense.

2011-2012 Vezina Trophy Voting Pts. [1st-2nd-3rd]
1. Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 120 [17-11-2]
2. Jonathan Quick, L.A. 63 [6-9-6]
3. Pekka Rinne, NSH 42 [4-4-10]
4. Mike Smith, PHX 35 [2-5-10]
5. Brian Elliott, STL 5 [1-0-0]
6. Jaroslav Halak, STL 3 [0-1-0]

 

[Hardyvan123]

Career: Selanne
Prime: Selanne
Peak: Fedorov - very few players had better season than him

Prime I'm taking Fedorov as well, others stuff stays the same, Sergei was a beast in the playoffs and a guy who could be counted on plus there is his 2 way play that makes the career really close to.

 

[Brooklanders*]

Fedorov was the better player but you are comparing two totally different players who played different positions and had different roles. Fedorov won and was a Captain

 

[Brooklanders*]

I see you won't back up your statement about "best season ever" even when I mention at least 20 players off the top of my head. Tell me, can you back up your claim?!?!?!?

76g-56a 132p +8 is pretty damn impressive and still a rookie record for most goals. 76 goals shattered the previous record of 53 for a rookie, that is no mere feat and overall only topped by Mario, Wayne and B Hull for goals in a season. Good for a .905 goals per game to go with a 1.57 points per game. His 24 power play goals that season is good for 5th all time too. The Jets I would not say were a fabulous team either but as a rookie he more than dominated in every category and teammate beating Housely by 35 total points and Tkachuk/Davydov by an astounding 48 goals. Somehow he pulled off a +8 when the rest of his team were all negative but that will happen when your goalies give up an average 3.5 and 4.3 goals a game and save less than 90%.

You are looking at probably an unbreakable record, we most likely will never see a 76 goal season never mind a 132 point season and Teemu did this during the so called dead puck era. Joe Thornton's 125 points is the closet a player has come and this during a higher scoring era. Nevermind it was done by a rookie when it is least likely to happen.

Much on that popcorn.

No he didnt score 76 during DPE. He scored when hockey was great to watch. See Mogilny on this as well because he totaled the same

 

[unknown33]

I can think of a slew of players
Brian Elliot Hainsworth, B Hull, Brodeur, Coffey, Gretzky, Thomas, Yzerman, LaFontaine, Jagr, Kurri, Oates, Bossy, Parent, Lemieux, Espo, and Orr all had better seasons than Federov and that's not even trying to dig into it.

I would even debate that 76 goal season Selanne had was better than that 1994 season Federov had.

.....What?

 

[Yamaguchi*]

No he didnt score 76 during DPE. He scored when hockey was great to watch. See Mogilny on this as well because he totaled the same

By the way, Mogilny scored 76 in 77 games, Selanne had 76 in 84 games.


And Mogilny was only a year older than Selanne.

 

[Sergei Makarov]

And don't forget that Fyodorov always played his best hockey in the playoffs while Selanne, on the other hand, always disappeared.

 

[revolverjgw]

And don't forget that Fyodorov always played his best hockey in the playoffs while Selanne, on the other hand, always disappeared.

That's the biggest difference to me, even more than Fedorov's big Hart/Selke year. He was one of the top playoff performers of all-time. And Selanne... no.

 

[Fred Taylor]

Yes Fedorov in his short prime and in the playoffs was the better player but career wise it's fairly close, probably with an edge to Selanne.

 

[Master_Of_Districts]

Still one of the most shocking and incredible seasons. It's up there:

38 games with a 1.56 GAA and a 94% save. Dude, that's nutty numbers. It's some of the best ever put up for a goalie. We have seen Vezina winners out of such numbers. It's two NHL records right there.

Remember, it's a season not a player.

Anyone who knows anything about binomial variation, and the effect that randomness can have over small sample sizes, would never make this assertion.

Of course, you obviously don't.

 

[toob]

oh man this is hard...

Feds has the best year in 94 but then Selanne has his rookie year and 96-99 which arent too far behind at all. Feds also has the mid 90s and then 03 as well and they are about on par with Selanne's best.

Fedorov generally played excellently in the playoffs but that is much more situational. Plus Selanne was great in international play.

cant believe somebody called Selanne a secondary player

 

[pdd]

The better player overall is Fedorov.

He could score, was great playmaker, was ~almost~ as fast a skater as Selanne, had one of the hardest slapshots in the league, and just for kicks was a Selke forward to boot. I personally think he's one of the most purely talented players the league has ever seen.

Fedorov was faster.

I said debatable. Go read first post, I still believe it is debatable, mostly because we are looking at an unbreakable record of 76 goals and 132 points as a rookie.

When someone self-admittedly, who didn't watch the NHL back then like Beegee has claimed, I have a hard time taking such hyperbole claims like BEST EVER. It's not best ever, this one is debatable, better? I dunno, but it's not clear cut better. Too much emphasis put into the Selke IMO. It is a great award, but too much put into it, these days.

Fedorov was 3rd in goals, 2nd in points, and won the Selke.

Here's a better comparison, though.

Fedorov 91-92: 80, 32-54-86 (per-84 34-57-91), 2nd for Selke (most 1st votes)
Selanne 92-93: 84GP, 76-56-132
Fedorov 92-93: 73GP, 34-53-87 (per-84 39-61-100 in 84GP), 4th place Selke finish

That's how good Selanne's season was, and how good Fedorov was going into 93-94. And he then he stepped up to:

83GP, 56-64-120, Selke win

The clear and far away answer is Fedorov.

 

[begbeee]

BamBamCam you're excellent example of miserable unsuccessfull troll. Your attempt to continue your campaign against me with another horrible nitpicking ended very bad, altough not in a way you would like - you made a complete fool from yourself.

While I'm not always right with my opinions and you could completly tear me apart in prime or maybe career case for Selanne (if you would have some knowledge though), you've nitpicked the worst part, which was absolutely obvious.

You almost don't quote me, just mentions various misinterpretation of my quotes, not just in this thread. As for Fedorov's 1994 season - I've posted few people had better season than him. You tried to argue that I've said it was the best season ever. It's waste of time of arguing when you even don't read my posts.

Then you came with claim that is arguable Selanne 1993 was better. And then it went really fast...the most funny parts were neverending tries to back-up your absurd claims:
1. 1993 is not DPE, in fact it's the most offensive season in NHL ever - it shows that you just don't have knowledge, in fact you have no idea what are you talking about after you've tried to back it up.
2. You've accused me that I just read the stats and never saw these guys playing, which is absolut nonsense. If it would be true, I would be living in the bubble or would start to watch hockey just yesterday. In fact I was witness of almost their whole careers. What you would know if you have read my posts, I've stated multiple times in responds for your, that I started to watch NHL in 1994 which is more than enough time to eyetest both of them. Oh, I'm lost... Stats. In fact you're that one stat guy among us! 76 - goals campaign of Selanne was not even his best season. And then comes another miserable attempt to back it up with rookie nonsense.
3. You nitpick every my word, when someone nitpick yours, it's freakin' typo.
4. There's not much to say about your Elliot nonsense, just that you show again you're the one obsessed with stats. Not to say, I still can find the post where you knock off the table Jim Carey's season and you're now arguing with Brian Elliot?
5. Darth Yoda challenged you to name better seasons than Fedorov's one except the very best ones. You came with Gretzky season. Do you even read what are you asking of?

This the last time I answer to your direct responses on my posts. It's wasting of my time. You're able make a fool of yourself without my or anyone's effort.
___

I think it's absolutely clear the peak season goes to Fedorov and Selanne can't match it with his 1993 or 1998 seasons.

What is debatable is career and maybe prime. I think Selanne had better career, due to longevity, international success and was a high-end player for longer than Fedorov. I don't buy some Fedorov's KHL all-stars when Selanne played NHL at the time with more than respectable 30 goals and 80 points.

Prime is not that easy as it looks IMO. I consider Selanne's best years his Mighty Ducks time, say 1997-99. It's not a stretch to say he was TOP5 forward back then. Fedorov was basically a great 60 points center (2nd) playing Selke calibre defense. His time came during playoffs and his 4 20+ playoff seasons are his true prime.

What would happen if we swap them? Selanne's offensive production probably wouldn't be so great in Detroit and 3 SC with Selanne instead of Fedorov are highly debatable too, with Dallas and Colorado in the mix. What about Fedorov? He probably stays the same responsible forward on a line with Kariya, but his numbers would grow I'm sure.

So with a closer look I can see a case for Fedorov in prime debate.

 

[Plural]

Fedorov was faster.



Fedorov was 3rd in goals, 2nd in points, and won the Selke.

Here's a better comparison, though.

Fedorov 91-92: 80, 32-54-86 (per-84 34-57-91), 2nd for Selke (most 1st votes)
Selanne 92-93: 84GP, 76-56-132
Fedorov 92-93: 73GP, 34-53-87 (per-84 39-61-100 in 84GP), 4th place Selke finish

That's how good Selanne's season was, and how good Fedorov was going into 93-94. And he then he stepped up to:

83GP, 56-64-120, Selke win

The clear and far away answer is Fedorov.

Was he really faster? I mean, is it a fact or is it just an opinion? Cause they definitely were close in terms of overall speed. Fedorov was better skater, but not sure that he was faster.

I should have probably asked the question in a form that which one will be higher on the All-Time list when both are done? If I remember correctly bith were left out from the HOH Top-70 list?

Fedorov had better best season, that is not even debatable. I believe that many posters here overrate defensive play, but when we are talking about Selanne and Fedorov the difference is so huge that easily closes the minor offensive gap they had.

Prime is a tougher one. If we would think about 3-5 best seasons stretch. Fedorov's would be, 92-96? Maybe?

Selanne from 95-99?

I know Fedorov brought the excellent two-way game but the overall difference in offense is starting to get bigger and bigger.

For Fedorov's stretch he is 9th in PPG (Actually he is just behind Selanne) and for Selanne's stretch he is 4th.

I think i would still give the edge to Fedorov, but it is definitely closer than the best season.

Career, i believe is going to be Selanne's favor, but mainly due to the ability to stay productive in his late years.

 

[begbeee]

What about Fedorov's regular season effort?
It's not like his skills magically dropped but fall from 1994-1996 (basically three 100+ points seasons) is huge - he dropped down to 60-70 points range. Sure it has something to do with DPE, but then why his production rise in tougher part of the season?
His ability to step up is great, but all things considered is not it some kind of lazyness from him which was possible maybe only in stacked Detroit?
On the other hand, Selanne had to work really hard during regular seasons to bring Ducks to playoffs. It sounds like Selanne was terrible in playoffs what is exagerrated. His production (his main goal) was rather very good outside 2-3 playoff runs. Uncomparable to Fedorov, but I don't agree it's some kind of black mark on his resume.

 

[Theokritos]

Was he really faster? I mean, is it a fact or is it just an opinion? Cause they definitely were close in terms of overall speed. Fedorov was better skater, but not sure that he was faster.

It's an opinion, but one that a lot of people share. He was the fastest skater in two all-star competitions (1992, 1994) and the time he clocked in 94 is still the best time clocked by anybody not named Mike Gartner.

 

[pdd]

Was he really faster? I mean, is it a fact or is it just an opinion? Cause they definitely were close in terms of overall speed. Fedorov was better skater, but not sure that he was faster.

Selanne was closer to Bure than Fedorov in speed. Fedorov had a top gear that the other two simply didn't have the power to hit, although they both got to top speed more quickly. Bure had he advantage on Selanne in that he was noticeably more agile at high speed with and without the puck.

I should have probably asked the question in a form that which one will be higher on the All-Time list when both are done? If I remember correctly bith were left out from the HOH Top-70 list?

Fedorov had better best season, that is not even debatable. I believe that many posters here overrate defensive play, but when we are talking about Selanne and Fedorov the difference is so huge that easily closes the minor offensive gap they had.

Prime is a tougher one. If we would think about 3-5 best seasons stretch. Fedorov's would be, 92-96? Maybe?

Selanne from 95-99?

I know Fedorov brought the excellent two-way game but the overall difference in offense is starting to get bigger and bigger.

For Fedorov's stretch he is 9th in PPG (Actually he is just behind Selanne) and for Selanne's stretch he is 4th.

Lemieux was mentioned as an exception in the "vote Selanne!" posts for best single season, so I'll say it now, Lemieux 92-93 through 95-96 might be the best 4-year stretch you can find in his career. Fedorov and Yzerman both made the following mistakes:
1) Had excellent rookie season when rookie goalie (Barrasso/Belfour) won the Vezina (and in the case of Fedorov, Belfour was also a Hart nominee).

2) Hit your peak during the end of the prime of one top-ten all-time player and superhuman scorer, and generally overlap your prime with another. Yzerman went Gretzky/Lemieux, Fedorov went Lemieux/Jagr.

I think i would still give the edge to Fedorov, but it is definitely closer than the best season.

Career, i believe is going to be Selanne's favor, but mainly due to the ability to stay productive in his late years.

Fedorov chose to go to the KHL to play with his brother so that his father could see them playing together. He excelled in that league while he played there. While he was with Washington he was still a legitimate top-six center. If he had stayed in the league he'd win all of these polls because people wouldn't have forgotten how good he was.

What about Fedorov's regular season effort?
It's not like his skills magically dropped but fall from 1994-1996 (basically three 100+ points seasons) is huge - he dropped down to 60-70 points range. Sure it has something to do with DPE, but then why his production rise in tougher part of the season?
His ability to step up is great, but all things considered is not it some kind of lazyness from him which was possible maybe only in stacked Detroit?

Fedorov's offense was down for the same reason Zetterberg's was down significantly in past years. He was often thrown out there in a defensive role as a shutdown guy and sometimes even on defense. He could have won five Selkes in the 90s and I don't think anyone would have blinked except Canadiens fans.

On the other hand, Selanne had to work really hard during regular seasons to bring Ducks to playoffs. It sounds like Selanne was terrible in playoffs what is exagerrated. His production (his main goal) was rather very good outside 2-3 playoff runs. Uncomparable to Fedorov, but I don't agree it's some kind of black mark on his resume.

[/quote]

You do know that Fedorov is the first core player Yzerman had worth keeping, right? And that although the logjam at center (Detroit's top three forwards were all centers, and all being played at center...) hurt the numbers of Yzerman and Fedorov (probably cost Yzerman at least one postseason AS nomination; he didn't benefit from Coffey much but when Carson left he started scoring like crazy. Put that streak in 91-92, 90-91, or 89-90, and see what happens.)

The Wings, from the start of the 1994-95 season until the end of the 1997-98 season won eleven playoff rounds and lost two. Fedorov was a key contributor in all of them. More games in a year is more fatigue, which is why Cup champs often start slow and rarely repeat. Fedorov's total line (RS and PO) during those four seasons? 293GP, 122-199-321. With 1st, 4th, and 9th place finishes for the Selke in the three full regular seasons.

By comparison, Selanne's 95-96 through 98-99 gets us this:

Selanne: 320GP, 199-225-424
Fedorov: 293GP, 122-199-321

Per-82:
Selanne: 51-56-107
Fedorov: 34-56-90

That's a straight combination of totals. if we equally weight each year we get this:

SelanneRS: 0.62-0.72-1.34
SelannePO: 0.57-0.39-0.96
FedorovRS: 0.53-0.77-1.30
FedorovPO: 0.27-0.95-1.22

And then equally weighting RS and PO:

Selanne Total: 0.60-0.56-1.16
Fedorov Total: 0.40-0.86-1.26

So completely ignoring defense, it can be established that Fedorov was a more lethal scoring presence; he scored goals/points in comparable and/or greater numbers, especially when it counted. Everything else beyond that is just... gravy. Two Selkes and a Hart? Gravy. When that's what you can call gravy on a "who's better" argument, you know it's not close.

 

[Plural]

Selanne was closer to Bure than Fedorov in speed. Fedorov had a top gear that the other two simply didn't have the power to hit, although they both got to top speed more quickly. Bure had he advantage on Selanne in that he was noticeably more agile at high speed with and without the puck.

I was asking about the speed due to the reason that i have no evidence of Fedorov being faster but you saying so. I do believe that you watched him a lot more than me, or many others for that matter.

Is it just an opinion or is it widely acknowledged fact that Feds was faster? Not that i don't value your opinions but sometimes you tend to overrate players you like. (As we all do).

 

[Plural]

Fedorov chose to go to the KHL to play with his brother so that his father could see them playing together. He excelled in that league while he played there. While he was with Washington he was still a legitimate top-six center. If he had stayed in the league he'd win all of these polls because people wouldn't have forgotten how good he was.

This might definitely be true. But just as easily it could work against Fedorov. In Fedorov's last years in the NHL he seemed to have troubles of playing full seasons. He also experienced decline in production. Last season he broke 50 points was 03-04. He probably was still a legitimate top-6 forward due to the defensive aspect but his days as a star were basically over. Playing for few more years might have actually diminish his accomplishments in some eyes.

That is not fair, but often fading stars playing too long get bad rap for few years.

 

[Plural]

It's an opinion, but one that a lot of people share. He was the fastest skater in two all-star competitions (1992, 1994) and the time he clocked in 94 is still the best time clocked by anybody not named Mike Gartner.

Oh, i just saw this post. I guess it is a popular opinion that Fedorov was faster.

I believe it to be true.

 

[begbeee]

Noone is forgetting how good he was, altough his star power fade away a little bit.. While Selanne was in Hart Trophy talks, Fedorov was stacked behind Yzerman.
He played a defensman in Columbus here and there, altough I don't know if this is argument for him or against him. All I want to say is: you don't put premier offensive player to defense. It's like playing Toews with Seabrook now.

 

[pdd]

Noone is forgetting how good he was, altough his star power fade away a little bit.. While Selanne was in Hart Trophy talks, Fedorov was stacked behind Yzerman.
He played a defensman in Columbus here and there, altough I don't know if this is argument for him or against him. All I want to say is: you don't put premier offensive player to defense. It's like playing Toews with Seabrook now.

Fedorov moving to defense was a Bowman thing first. He moved back because he could. Bowman and others in the organization said that had he stayed there, he probably would have won at least a Norris or two. He's probably the most versatile player of the modern era. He can go from being a dominant offensive winger to being a shutdown defenseman to being a first line center in the space of less than three shifts. His size, strength, hockey IQ, tool set, and work ethic made him the near-perfect hockey player.

 

[begbeee]

While I agree with everything you've said, the truth is you don't sacrifice premier offense just to play defense albeit very good one. If I have 100+ point player, I would not force him to play defense too much.
In other words: do you consider trading 50 points - from 100 to 50 - for defense as good deal? Me not. There are many players who put up 50 points and play Selke defense. There aren't (and were not) many who put up 100+ points. If Fedorov was still able to put up such number, only fool would force him to play defensman.

 

[pdd]

While I agree with everything you've said, the truth is you don't sacrifice premier offense just to play defense albeit very good one. If I have 100+ point player, I would not force him to play defense too much.
In other words: do you consider trading 50 points - from 100 to 50 - for defense as good deal? Me not. There are many players who put up 50 points and play Selke defense. There aren't (and were not) many who put up 100+ points. If Fedorov was still able to put up such number, only fool would force him to play defensman.

After 1996, the Wings acquired Brendan Shanahan. Shanahan worked best with Yzerman, who Bowman had been running as the second line center and sometimes in a shut-down role. But when you add a guy like Shanahan to the line, with not much difference between Yzerman and Fedorov except age; speed; size; and handedness at that point, the Shanahan/Yzeman line became the primary scoring line and Fedorov's line became line 2. Fedorov began seeing more defensive matchups, like he used to, and his scoring numbers dropped.

As I said before, the same dynamic has applied to Datsyuk and Zetterberg; they played together from 2002-03 through much of 2007-08 (Z played about 30-40% of that season at center and then the playoffs) and since then Z has played almost exclusively center. Z was shutdown center in 08-09, which Datsyuk centered Hossa (who had taken Z's slot on the top line and PP unit). Z's "poor year" cost him his rightful Selke, which again went to Datsyuk. In 2009-10, Zetterberg led the team in scoring, despite still playing the shutdown role. Datsyuk won the Selke again.

And people ask why I say Zetterberg is the most underrated player in hockey. People leave him off their lists of the top ten centers in the CONFERENCE. This is a guy who's challenging for the Selke, and has been among the scoring leaders all year (he's slowed down recently, but he's still up there) and he's not top ten in the conference? He's behind Benn, RNH, Richards, Kesler, Couture on some lists. SERIOUSLY?

 

[feffan]

While I agree with everything you've said, the truth is you don't sacrifice premier offense just to play defense albeit very good one. If I have 100+ point player, I would not force him to play defense too much.
In other words: do you consider trading 50 points - from 100 to 50 - for defense as good deal? Me not. There are many players who put up 50 points and play Selke defense. There aren't (and were not) many who put up 100+ points. If Fedorov was still able to put up such number, only fool would force him to play defensman.

If I get a top 20 defensive defenceman in the leauge with 50 points offense I would choose him before many of the 100-point scorers during the years. One can´t just look at points there, besides preventing more goals than the forward a good defenceman often has the "third-assist" and would/could be the reasons of more goals scored than the forward with 20 or more points than him.
I could also easy pick a selke caliber player like Peca before many of the 80-100 point scorers. Even a Wes Walz before many of the 50-70 point guys like say Huselius could be argumented a good choice.

Fedorov is a special case thou and I would preferley see him at center. But if shortage of good defenders, I would play him back there. Build from the back and up. But I´m a defense first kind of person with a little more love for example the DPE than the most. That I love the quote "offense wins games, defense wins championships" probably says the most

As one can tell I obviously am gonna answer Fedorov to the original question. Selänne is a favourite thou. Have a soft spot for the finn generation that as a swede scared me more than any other (Koivu, Selänne, Lethinen, Peltonen, Kapanen, and so on...). But I can´t pick a scoring winger before one of the most complete centers there´s been. And a great playoff perfomer.