Fedorov vs. Selanne

[BamBamCam*]

Um... I don't care if Zhamnov was a rookie or not, he was 22 years old and contributed 72 points in 68 games for the Jets. That's a key contributor. Tkachuk's 28 goals can't be so easily discarded either.

So, I see..throw out specific points when they don't fit into what you are saying. A rookie is still a rookie. It should tell you how bad that team was that a rookie in Selanne crushed his teammates in every dept and Zhamnov was a major contributor.

Unfortunate that we only got to see 45 games of Gretzky and 60 games of Lemieux that year.

But yes, in an offense-first season, Selanne was able to align himself with the other top offensive players in the league. He has also produced for long enough to be very high on the all-time list as well - higher than some/most of those names. But I'd still likely take most of them over Selanne for my team.

Ultimately, though, '92/93 doesn't elevate Selanne above a lot of those names any more than '97/98 elevates Leclair and Palffy above him.

It's still Wayne and Mario, and Mario still lead the league when it was finished with only 60 games played.

Exactly my point,it doesn't elevate Selanne over them, but he still had that season with all those guys playing, it is pretty much unbeatable, and those rookie records will not be broken any time soon.

Remember we are not talking a career we are talking SEASON.

 

[MadLuke]

A rookie is still a rookie

Not sure if older europeen that played with men (and pro) for some year is the same.

Rooki 22-23 year old Ovechkin in 92-93 could have got that record too.

The absolute number stat wise does not mean much IMO, and the rookie or not status not that much either.

 

[sr edler]

So a team of Housley and Numminen....that can be compared to that 2005/06 Caps team.

Also had Thomas Steen who had 259 points in 229 games in the 4 seasons prior to 92–93. He's better than any Zubrus, Clark, Halpern. Had 50 assists and 22 goals. Fredrik Olausson was also a good offensive defenseman with 62, 55, 41, 62 points seasons before 92–93. He had 57 points in 68 games.

Point is Ovechkin's rookie season is up there with Selänne's if you look at it objectively and within context and not only on raw numbers. You think Joe Juneau's rookie season was better than Mario Lemieux's because he had more points? Selänne had a crazy rookie season but it's not crazy to say there were players, like Gretzky or Ovechkin, with as good or better rookie seasons at younger ages.

 

[Wizeman*]

Career now goes to Selanne

Prime? I take Federov every day and twice on Sunday. He had multi dimensions to his game that Selanne couldnt even dream of having.

Only guy in NHL history to score 50 goals and win the Selke in the same year. So that season was the greatest Selke season ever. Gretzky nor Lemuiex nor Esposito or even Yzerman could match it.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Better career - Selanne, mostly due to longevity

Better player - Fedorov.

 

[sr edler]

So, Selanne lead in goals and 5th in a league that had Gretzky, Robitalle, Hull, Yzerman, Murphey, Bourque, Sakic, Coffey, Gilmour, Gartner, Oates, Messier, Hawerchuk and probable HOFers in LaFontaine, Bure, Recchi, Shannahan, Sundin, Francis. You really think the league is going to have that many HoFers that played during Ovie's 2005/06 season?

Selänne is better than Robitaille, Gartner, Recchi, Shanahan, definitely. But he isn't better than Fedorov. He's around Hull and Bure, but personally I would prefer both of them in front of him. I think it's hard to compare a player like Selänne to players outside the winger position, but yeah NHL wise he was [probably] better than Sundin too.

Fedorov wouldn't trade career with Selänne for a second.

 

[Theokritos]

Too much emphasis put into the Selke IMO. It is a great award, but too much put into it, these days.

It's not "Selke (Fyodorov) vs Scoring (Selänne)". It's "Scoring PLUS Selke (Fyodorov) vs Scoring (Selänne)". Fyodorov was the better scorer (2nd best in the league) WHILE winning the Selke. Again, I don't see the contest and I don't think it's debatable.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

So, I see..throw out specific points when they don't fit into what you are saying. A rookie is still a rookie. It should tell you how bad that team was that a rookie in Selanne crushed his teammates in every dept and Zhamnov was a major contributor.

I don't get what you're saying. You're the only one placing emphasis on whether or not anyone was a rookie, and deciding which rookie contributions were worth something/nothing, with nothing in between.

 

[BamBamCam*]

Selänne is better than Robitaille, Gartner, Recchi, Shanahan, definitely. But he isn't better than Fedorov. He's around Hull and Bure, but personally I would prefer both of them in front of him. I think it's hard to compare a player like Selänne to players outside the winger position, but yeah NHL wise he was [probably] better than Sundin too.

Fedorov wouldn't trade career with Selänne for a second.

You're not even talking about what I was talking about anymore.I would take Federov over Selanne too.

Here is what grinds my gears: Begbee says "Very few players had better seasons than him"

I take exception to such absolutes. While Federov's 94/95 season was a great one and good enough for the Hart, it is not one of the best ever. My first post, I listed at least 20 guys that had better seasons, that doesn't count the multiple better seasons players like Mario, Wayne, Gordie etc.. had, I just rattle off 20 seasons and I didn't even look past or research other seasons I have forgotten.

So,to recap, I claim Selanne's rookie season is arguably as good as Fedorov's 94/95 season. Do we see the difference? I don't care about Ovechin or anything else. I take exception to the one statement.

I don't get what you're saying. You're the only one placing emphasis on whether or not anyone was a rookie, and deciding which rookie contributions were worth something/nothing, with nothing in between.

Being a rookie does matter. As much as you folks around here love to use such sayings like "but Oates was passing to him" insert whatever linemate you want. Being a rookie makes a major difference, they are not supposed to put up numbers like that but Ovechkin and Selanne did,, it does make it more impressive.

 

[sr edler]

My first post, I listed at least 20 guys that had better seasons

Yeah, but you listed Brian Elliott. He played 38 games last year and was a product of environment.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You're not even talking about what I was talking about anymore.I would take Federov over Selanne too.

Here is what grinds my gears: BeeGee says "Federov's season is one of the best ever"

I take exception to such absolutes. While Federov's 94/95 season was a great one and good enough for the Hart, it is not one of the best ever. My first post, I listed at least 20 guys that had better seasons, that doesn't count the multiple better seasons players like Mario, Wayne, Gordie etc.. had, I just rattle off 20 seasons and I didn't even look past or research other seasons I have forgotten.

So,to recap, I claim Selanne's rookie season is arguably as good as Fedorov's 94/95 season. Do we see the difference? I don't care about Ovechin or anything else. I take exception to the one statement.

You'd have a point, except for the fact that "one of" implies a set, not an endpoint or "absolute". Scoring 50 goals while winning the Selke is absolutely "one of the best seasons ever". It earned him the title of most valuable player AND most outstanding player on top of the Selke, for god's sake.

On the flip side, there ARE players who have scored 70+ goals in a season by the age of 22: Wayne and Mario. Bossy even got 69 by age 22 in a much lower scoring environment. Don't get me wrong, the 76 goals is impressive, but it would mean a lot more if he actually came within 20 goals of repeating that at least once over his 20+ years in the league (like Brett Hull, who had 72, 86, and 70 in consecutive seasons leading up to Selanne's first, and "best", season for example), and if the Jets had finished higher than 4th in their division because of it (probably also part of why Selanne ended up with only 5 third place votes for the Hart despite his share of the team's scoring load and gaudy rookie numbers).

Being a rookie does matter. As much as you folks around here love to use such sayings like "but Oates was passing to him" insert whatever linemate you want. Being a rookie makes a major difference, they are not supposed to put up numbers like that but Ovechkin and Selanne did,, it does make it more impressive.

I agree to an extent. Transition and adaptation to different styles also makes a difference, and those who do it quickly (Makarov is another example) deserve credit. But try as they might to run absolutely all the offense through Selanne, the team still fell far short. That means something, too.

 

[BamBamCam*]

You'd have a point, except for the fact that "one of" implies a set, not an endpoint or "absolute". Scoring 50 goals while winning the Selke is absolutely "one of the best seasons ever". It earned him the title of most valuable player AND most outstanding player on top of the Selke, for god's sake.

On the flip side, there ARE players who have scored 70+ goals in a season by the age of 22: Wayne and Mario. Bossy even got 69 by age 22 in a much lower scoring environment. Don't get me wrong, the 76 goals is impressive, but it would mean a lot more if he actually came within 20 goals of repeating that at least once over his 20+ years in the league (like Brett Hull, who had 72, 86, and 70 in consecutive seasons leading up to Selanne's first, and "best", season for example), and if the Jets had finished higher than 4th in their division because of it (probably also part of why Selanne ended up with only 5 third place votes for the Hart despite his share of the team's scoring load and gaudy rookie numbers).



I agree to an extent. Transition and adaptation to different styles also makes a difference, and those who do it quickly (Makarov is another example) deserve credit. But try as they might to run absolutely all the offense through Selanne, the team still fell far short. That means something, too.

Okay, you are with me now.

However, with such statements like "one of the best" you are implying top 10 which it is not, it's not top 25, possibly top 50 but most likely a top 100 season. Now, can I take player X and make that statement that he had one of the best ever when it lands 1000 best season ever? That's my point. It's a great season, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't place in one of the best ever.

Unless, Begbee comes back and argues his point but somehow I don't see that.

 

[BamBamCam*]

Yeah, but you listed Brian Elliott. He played 38 games last year and was a product of environment.

Still one of the most shocking and incredible seasons. It's up there:

38 games with a 1.56 GAA and a 94% save. Dude, that's nutty numbers. It's some of the best ever put up for a goalie. We have seen Vezina winners out of such numbers. It's two NHL records right there.

Remember, it's a season not a player.

 

[Pominville Knows]

I guess one could say that Selannes rookie season was part of creating the DPE though. It took only so long before teams started cutting down on opponents scoring as a primary weapon. In fact, i believe New Jersey did it the very next season and then it spread like wildfire.

And, for sure Ovechkins rookie season was as good as Selannes. The record is flawed and a joke just like many others, too environment dependant. At least in terms of bragging over pure numbers.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

However, with such statements like "one of the best" you are implying top 10

Sorry, but you just made that up right now and/or you're projecting. But yeah, it's up in that region, imo.

 

[RorschachWJK]

Better career - Selanne, mostly due to longevity

Better player - Fedorov.

This. There aren't many players I'd take over Fedorov from that era - maybe only Lemieux.

 

[BamBamCam*]

Sorry, but you just made that up right now and/or you're projecting. But yeah, it's up in that region, imo.

We can have this debate which is what I was trying to do to begin with. I just wanted Begbee to back up what he said. I catch him with too many absolutes with disregard for the past.

Who knows I may surprise myself and find it is that good but I know I have at least 20 players that had a better season than Federov's 94/95.

New thread or in here?

 

[Pominville Knows]

We can have this debate which is what I was trying to do to begin with. I just wanted Begbee to back up what he said. I catch him with too many absolutes with disregard for the past.

Who knows I may surprise myself and find it is that good but I know I have at least 20 players that had a better season than Federov's 94/95.

New thread or in here?

Forget about seasons by the very best ones, but which players are there right ahead of that Fedorov season? Stastnys second? Highly debatable to say the least.

 

[Theokritos]

I know I have at least 20 players that had a better season than Federov's 94/95.

If you're talking about 94-95 now then no-one is going to disagree with you anyway.

 

[BamBamCam*]

If you're talking about 94-95 now then no-one is going to disagree with you anyway.

Umm yeah, because that's what we are talking about. Federov won the Hart, there's no debate he was the best that year, not in my mind anyhow.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Umm yeah, because that's what we are talking about. Federov won the Hart, there's no debate he was the best that year, not in my mind anyhow.

No we're not. That was '93/94, not the lockout-shortened '94/95 (Lindros' big season).

 

[Theokritos]

umm yeah, because that's what we are talking about. Federov won the hart, there's no debate he was the best that year, not in my mind anyhow.

1993-1994 ≠ 1994-1995.

 

[BamBamCam*]

Forget about seasons by the very best ones, but which players are there right ahead of that Fedorov season? Stastnys second? Highly debatable to say the least.

Yes, best individual seasons ahead of Fedorov's excellent 93/94 campaign.

For instance: Wayne Gretzky's 1985-86 season of

52 goals, 163 assists 215 points. He beats everyone in total points by 22 assists alone. That still boggles my mind that year.

Too bad, TV was the way it was back then, We really didn't get to see other teams play that much except for our market team and when they played them.

 

[BamBamCam*]

No we're not. That was '93/94, not the lockout-shortened '94/95 (Lindros' big season).

Jeez man calm down it's a freaking typo. You know exactly what I meant.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Jeez man calm down it's a freaking typo. You know exactly what I meant.

Everyone's calm, and yes, now we're 100% sure that you know what you mean. You only have to come up with 10, and mentioning Gretzky's highest scoring season ever is a lazy non-conversation starter.