Confirmed with Link: Faulk to the Blues for Edmundson, Bokk

The S5

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It wasn't just the playoffs, it was the regular season as well where Faulk was 2nd in TOI/GP among defensemen. And in terms of being a liability out there, we seem to gloss over Dougie's mistakes and play in the playoffs for some reason.

In terms of regular season, for all his "gaffs" and with being a liability out there, in the end, he was one of the better Canes D for GA/60 and wasn't sheltered nearly as much as Dougie, CDH or TVR.

I'm not arguing that Faulk is a great defender. He has inconsistencies 0(no more than Hamilton though) and his lateral movement isn't as good as the other defensemen, but his "warts", for some reason, are pointed out more than other players. Probably because he's been here the longest and it's natural for Fans to do that.

The Dougie discussion will happen next year. Faulk was the one looking for the new contract and he just isn't worth what he got.
Let's be fair, Faulk isn't anywhere near the level of Slavin or Pesce. He also doesn't pose the offensive threat that Dougie does.
Waddell has done a good job at trying to improve the PP and scoring. I have to think this is a better team than last season. Of course, that doesn't mean they will have the same level of success, but everything appears to be in place (caveat goaltending)
 
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Boom Boom Apathy

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The Dougie discussion will happen next year. Faulk was the one looking for the new contract and he just isn't worth what he got.

100% agree. The discussion didn't have anything to do with contract, we were discussing his usage. I am not disagreeing with the trade at all, as I think it makes sense particularly with the contract he jsut signed. I was only disagreeing with some of the comments about Faulk's usage.

Let's be fair, Faulk isn't anywhere near the level of Slavin or Pesce. He also doesn't pose the offensive threat that Dougie does. Waddell has done a good job at trying to improve the PP and scoring. I have to think this is a better team than last season. Of course, that doesn't mean they will have the same level of success, but everything appears to be in place (caveat goaltending)

Again, agree completely, but this wasn't the discussion. The discussion was that Faulk would be a "3rd pairing Dman in Carolina this year" and my statement was "that maybe on paper, but I doubt that would be how Rod used him, particularly based on how Rod used him last year and not just in the playoffs" and I don't think he was as much of a liability as you, and others, are stating.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Faulk is a great defender, but I do think his miscues get more airtime/hate than other defensemen's miscues and I think it's 100% because he's been here the longest. For example, if Faulk had made the same play in the playoffs when Ovi was charging in on him like Hamilton made, people would have called for his head. Hamilton has some notoriously bad pinches and his play, IMO, reduces Slavin's effectiveness, but people don't highlight those like they do with Faulk.

Anyhow, I agree the Canes needed to make this move so not disagreeing with that part of it.
 

vorbis

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maybe one of these days people will stop making arguments against analytics as if the goal for the field is to usurp "eye test" or "experience" in the evaluation process.

perhaps a couple of sycophant front offices tried that literally 15 years ago, but almost from the jump analytics in sports has been groomed and developed as a management tool to help actual human beings make better decisions. that's really the extent of it. Tulsky's 97% comments in Custance's podcast felt too self-effacing by half and maybe a bit of self-deprecating humor as well.

major developments in recent years have resulted in developing new analytical tools. either using new technology (accelerometer or GPS tracking stuff) or new concepts (possession/zone entry or shot generation stuff for hockey). you still need the human element to fill in the gaps that analytics can't cover, just like you need analytical tools to fill in the gaps that eye tests, experienced scouting, and people relations processes can't objectively evaluate. Billy Beane knows this, Theo Epstein knows this, and Eric Tulsky and Tom Dundon definitely know this.

in terms of the Carolina Hurricanes, I think the biggest organizational evolution in the Dundon era isn't really the use of analytics, but rather a philosophical change in how "Value" is determined, as well as how decisions are made to retain, move out, or target and identify value using all available means.

the red/yellow/green light decision-making process that Tom Dundon described when he first bought the team wasn't about wheeling in a big computer and typing Run into a terminal window. it was about gathering information, storing and organizing this information so that human beings can access, understand, and utilize it, and establishing a circle of trust so that a group of smart individuals can bring informed perspectives into powwows and make smart decisions nimbly, whether they involve changes of small or franchise-altering proportions.

it's this sort of flexible decision-making that enables rather convoluted deals like the Faulk trade. Faulk's value was more or less determined (with senior-level input from Rod Brind'Amour I might add), contract negotiations were undertaken, and when there was an impasse, they were able to make a move with a clear idea of what value they could get. this allowed them to maneuver a deal for a replacement roster defenseman and an exciting prospect with high end potential. not only that, but given that there was a rather minor exchange of picks and salary retention on Carolina's part, you can feel pretty confident that GMBC felt strongly about the major pieces of the deal. to me as a fan, that's uncommon insight into management priorities, especially in the NHL.

at this point, it remains to be seen how these changes will impact the won-loss record of this particular season. anything can happen, and analytical tools are kind of left standing on the dock as the season pushes out to sea when it comes to things like "leadership" or "chemistry." but if you look at the process itself for what it is and how it has impacted the value of assets throughout the organization, the results are clear as day. the Faulk trade is just the latest iteration.
 

A Star is Burns

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I think it may have been trending towards Faulk starting on the 3rd pair and 2nd PP, but I don't think it matters. In the Tulsky interview (and God help me, this supports what MSP has been saying for a while), he did mention how it isn't great to have a 4+ million dollar dman on your third pair. You'll certainly take the problem if you have it, but it isn't ideal. It doesn't matter if Faulk was going the be that expensive contract on the third pair, or one of the others making that rate, someone was going to be there. Given our cap situation, Faulk's contract situation (super glad we don't have that on our books), fit (Edmundson being a clear 3rd pairing that can likely step up in a pinch, play PK, provide some physical game vs Faulk's offensive strengths that can probably be handled well enough by high end offensive guys like Hamilton and Gardiner, and mid range guys like Pesce and Slavin), I think the move makes perfect sense. And Bokk is a very nice icing on the cake.
 

My Special Purpose

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Again, agree completely, but this wasn't the discussion. The discussion was that Faulk would be a "3rd pairing Dman in Carolina this year" and my statement was "that maybe on paper, but I doubt that would be how Rod used him, particularly based on how Rod used him last year and not just in the playoffs" and I don't think he was as much of a liability as you, and others, are stating.

You've made this point a couple of times and I understand it in terms of last season, but it truly didn't look like it was shaping up to be the case this season. Faulk averaged almost three minutes a game on the power play and it was looking like that was going virtually to zero this season. That, in and of itself, accounts for most of Faulk's seemingly skewed usage under Brind'Amour, who had clearly moved on from Faulk on the PP.

If you look at Faulk -- in the context of our team -- as a de Haan replacement (second-pairing guy being under-slotted, not playing on the PP but on the PK), I'd think we'd realistically have expected him around de Haan's 16:25 of ice at 5-on-5 and two minutes per game on the PK.
 
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Boom Boom Apathy

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You've made this point a couple of times and I understand it in terms of last season, but it truly didn't look like it was shaping up to be the case this season. Faulk averaged almost three minutes a game on the power play and it was looking like that was going virtually to zero this season. That, in and of itself, accounts for most of Faulk's seemingly skewed usage under Brind'Amour, who had clearly moved on from Faulk on the PP.

If you look at Faulk -- in the context of our team -- as a de Haan replacement (second-pairing guy being under-slotted, not playing on the PP but on the PK), I'd think we'd realistically have expected him around de Haan's 16:25 of ice at 5-on-5 and two minutes per game on the PK.

That's why I said "on paper". I agree that's how it looks to be shaping up, but last year, it looked to be shaping up as Slavin-Pesce, CDH-Hamilton as the top four, everybody assumed Dougie would take over 1st PP unit and Faulk would be traded. Faulk didn't get traded and neither of the 1st two things happened, which is precisely my point. How things look to be shaping up/how we think guys should be deployed and how RBA actually deploys them would likely be 2 very different things. It's all speculation anyhow so it doesn't matter.

I think it's the right move trading him. On paper, I like the mix we have, I like the RH/LH balance, I like having Gardiner on the PP, I like the salary structure, and I like getting Bokk. How it works on the ice remains to be seen, but we've got enough depth that I'm not worried about it.

Edit: just to correct 1 thing, because I'm like that. Faulk had the 2nd most ES TOI among defensemen, just behind Slavin and his ES TOI/GP was 3rd behind Slavin and Pesce, but only 4 seconds less than Pesce so it's not completely accurate to say that PP was the main factor in skewing his TOI.
 
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NotOpie

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That, in and of itself, accounts for most of Faulk's seemingly skewed usage under Brind'Amour, who had clearly moved on from Faulk on the PP.

I think that can be heard in Brind'Amour's comments after practice today. He flat out said they couldn't come to a contract deal, so he knew the team was moving on from Justin. It was only a matter of time....hence the change in PP usage.
 
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GIN ANTONIC

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A Faulk extension was never going to work out with us. Borg was likely going off of cap hit as a starting point and Faulk was going off of actual salary which was $6 mil.

No way we were giving him a raise on $6 mil for more than 3-4 years if we were willing to go that high at all. I’m sure they were trying to get him in the 5.5 range.

The deal wasn’t so much for Faulk as it was for Hamilton. If they pay him $6.5 then Dougie will want $8 mil+
 

Big Daddy Cane

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Faulk would have little bearing on Hamilton's ask. They'll have to give him $8 mil+ with up to max term regardless. Spurgeon just signed for $7.58 mil x 7. Trouba got $8 mil x 7. The analytics say he's better than both, right? He has more name value, too. That's not even mentioning cap inflation, which could be significant with the next US TV deal starting at the same time as his next contract.

The desire to extend Faulk to begin with calls into question Hamilton's long-term future to me. Now that I think about it, that persists after signing his replacement even.
 
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A Star is Burns

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Faulk would have little bearing on Hamilton's ask. They'll have to give him $8 mil+ with up to max term regardless. Spurgeon just signed for $7.58 mil x 7. Trouba got $8 mil x 7. The analytics say he's better than both, right? He has more name value, too. That's not even mentioning cap inflation, which could be significant with the next US TV deal starting at the same time as his next contract.

The desire to extend Faulk to begin with calls into question Hamilton's long-term future to me. Now that I think about it, that persists after signing his replacement even.
As has been mentioned, they'll place a value on it, and if/when Dougie wants way more than that, they'll move on and go but another dman. Pretty straightforward.
 

GIN ANTONIC

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Faulk would have little bearing on Hamilton's ask. They'll have to give him $8 mil+ with up to max term regardless. Spurgeon just signed for $7.58 mil x 7. Trouba got $8 mil x 7. The analytics say he's better than both, right? He has more name value, too. That's not even mentioning cap inflation, which could be significant with the next US TV deal starting at the same time as his next contract.

The desire to extend Faulk to begin with calls into question Hamilton's long-term future to me. Now that I think about it, that persists after signing his replacement even.

You’re not wrong BUT I would also argue that the borg looks at what the rest of the league does and says ‘ya, I think I’m gonna do it my way’.

So yes, while Trouba and Spurgeon would be comparables league wide I think GMBC is gonna set their own bar for negotiations and while it might move a bit, I don’t see them buckling Dubas style.

Anyway, lots of moving parts and next offseason things could be very different. So far I have no issues with anything Dundon and co have done since taking over.
 

bleedgreen

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I think it may have been trending towards Faulk starting on the 3rd pair and 2nd PP, but I don't think it matters. In the Tulsky interview (and God help me, this supports what MSP has been saying for a while), he did mention how it isn't great to have a 4+ million dollar dman on your third pair. You'll certainly take the problem if you have it, but it isn't ideal. It doesn't matter if Faulk was going the be that expensive contract on the third pair, or one of the others making that rate, someone was going to be there. Given our cap situation, Faulk's contract situation (super glad we don't have that on our books), fit (Edmundson being a clear 3rd pairing that can likely step up in a pinch, play PK, provide some physical game vs Faulk's offensive strengths that can probably be handled well enough by high end offensive guys like Hamilton and Gardiner, and mid range guys like Pesce and Slavin), I think the move makes perfect sense. And Bokk is a very nice icing on the cake.
Well Edmure makes 3.something with TVR making 2.something, so while we are “cheaper” on the third pair we’re paying a decent amount back there. Especially since we could probably roll with Fleury and McKeown.
 

ChicagoBlues

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Blues fan here! Love the Hurricanes!
Go Canes!
f*** yeah!
Comin’ again to save the mother f***in’ day.
Yeah!

I’ve been a huge Edmundson supporter since he was drafted by the Blues.

He is tough and can pinch off a wing rush to the boards at will. But the problem is that he is a head game. He gets inside his head and loses his game in the process.

Bokk is sensational as long he is nurtured properly. The Blues paid dearly for Faulk. Bokk is a huge loss to our prospect pool at forward.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

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Honestly, if contract negotiations with Dougie don't go well, I do see them pulling another Faulk-ian move with him, signing a comparable UFA (in terms of talent, not necessarily the exact same position) and getting a good prospect and draft pick package for Hamilton in a sign-and-trade. I've been hugely impressed with the Canes FO in their constant pursuit of maximum asset hoarding. Other than a few role players like Ferland, they have yet to give up a pending UFA for absolutely nothing. Faulk in particular returned an excellent package (if Bokk pans out, of course).
 

GIN ANTONIC

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Honestly, if contract negotiations with Dougie don't go well, I do see them pulling another Faulk-ian move with him, signing a comparable UFA (in terms of talent, not necessarily the exact same position) and getting a good prospect and draft pick package for Hamilton in a sign-and-trade. I've been hugely impressed with the Canes FO in their constant pursuit of maximum asset hoarding. Other than a few role players like Ferland, they have yet to give up a pending UFA for absolutely nothing. Faulk in particular returned an excellent package (if Bokk pans out, of course).

Yeah, I think the Ferland thing was mis-handled a bit for sure. Only because in the end they clearly could have brought him back for a relatively low cost considering what he signed for in Vancouver. The borg decided that Haula + Dzingel were better adds and they might be right on that but you can't deny what a healthy motivated Ferland brings to the table. Either way from an asset management standpoint it was less than ideal but maybe a lesson learned on that what and at least it wasn't on a player who was part of the core.
 
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Anton Babchuk

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Well Edmure makes 3.something with TVR making 2.something, so while we are “cheaper” on the third pair we’re paying a decent amount back there. Especially since we could probably roll with Fleury and McKeown.
unless edmunson is really, really bad, a fleury-mckeown pairing would be a huge step down. i think the reason we have a $5.4m third pairing is because the organization just doesn't trust those guys.

fleury has looked miserable so far, in his sixth training camp and fourth pro year. there's this "they're easily #6 defenseman on any other team!!!" sentiment that about fleury and mckeown (and other prospects in the past) that doesn't have any merit alll imo.

people here have been SHOCKED when the likes of carrick and mckeown cleared waivers, but they shouldn't be. these guys are dime-a-dozen #8/9 defensemen who shouldn't be in a regular role on any team. every team has two or three of these guys.
 
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Chrispy

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Yeah, I think the Ferland thing was mis-handled a bit for sure. Only because in the end they clearly could have brought him back for a relatively low cost considering what he signed for in Vancouver. The borg decided that Haula + Dzingel were better adds and they might be right on that but you can't deny what a healthy motivated Ferland brings to the table. Either way from an asset management standpoint it was less than ideal but maybe a lesson learned on that what and at least it wasn't on a player who was part of the core.

You can't deny what a healthy de Haan brings to the table either.

Yet both are elsewhere on reasonable contracts for the next 3-4 years. I think health played a major role in both.
 
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TheReelChuckFletcher

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unless edmunson is really, really bad, a fleury-mckeown pairing would be a huge step down. i think the reason we have a 5.4m third pairing is because the organization just doesn't trust those guys.

I think that for most organizations, a Fleury-McKeown pairing would work just fine on a third pairing. It's important to note, however, that the Canes are clearly in win-now mode and are ready to make their run this year, and Edmundson-TVR is a third pairing to match those ambitions.
 

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