Fastest to reach milestones from 100 points to 2000 points

[Dazed and Confused]

Really goes to show you how insane Gretzky was.

If you look at him and Lemieux, Mario only manages to out pace him 4 times out of 17 (100 to 200 points, 500 to 600, 1000 to 1100, and 1300 to 1400), and even then the highest was by 7 games. Otherwise Gretzky was at a faster (at times noticeably faster) clip.

Here's the # of games Mario was behind Wayne to each interval. (bold shows the few times Mario narrowed the gap)

100: 12
200: 11
300: 27
400: 43
500: 57
600: 50
700: 54
800: 58
900: 78
1000: 89
1100: 86
1200: 89
1300: 94
1400: 89
1500: 127
1600: 145
1700: 176

 

[Felidae]

What it tells you is that Jagr broke out as a superstar at 20, and as an elite quasi-generational player by 21. Crosby hit those levels at 18 and 19, so his first (X) games will look more impressive every time, simply because Crosby has never done anything to set himself back as far as 18/19 year old Jagr did.

Obviously, that's a checkmark in Crosby's column, but it doesn't prove anything about the levels they hit afterwards.

Except even later on and as of right now, Crosby has attained point milestones at a faster or equal rate to Jagr.
Then you take into account era, and Crosby marginally edges out Jagr.

Two crucial stats that substantiate my position are Crosby on pace for at least 100 points every season excluding his last 2, and Crosby having led the league in PPG 5 times to Jagr's 3, and Jagr has had a 25 year career...

Even if you don't believe Crosby is better right now, its highly probable that he surpasses Jagr in the near future. Who knows how close this debate would be if Jagr didn't have an astronomical decline in washington due to lack of motivation and effort.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I think most serious posters also know that the farther you go back in time, the more scoring is concentrated in top 2 lines, meaning zooming in on what the top players were capable of progressively obscures how easy/hard it was for everyone to score as you go backwards.

But enough talk, here are the relative scoring environments (average total goals/game):

Lindros: 7.25, 6.48, 5.97, 6.29, 5.83, 5.28, 5.27 -> avg. 6.05
Crosby: 6.17, 5.89, 5.57, 5.83, 5.68, 5.59, 5.47 -> avg. 5.74

Whopping difference of 0.3 total goals (for AND against) per game on average, or 0.15 goals for, which is roughly equivalent to one more goal to go around every 7 games. And Lindros faced the hardest scoring environment(s) between them in his pursuit of 500 and 600 points (bolded).

Those numbers for post-lockout scoring are wrong, as they include shootout goals.

The average goals per game for Crosby's first 7 seasons was 5.61. So not only was average scoring 8% higher for Lindros, elite players during Lindros' prime had significantly higher TOI than in today's NHL, which made it easier to put up higher point totals.

 

[Sens Rule]

Really goes to show you how insane Gretzky was.

If you look at him and Lemieux, Mario only manages to out pace him 4 times out of 17 (100 to 200 points, 500 to 600, 1000 to 1100, and 1300 to 1400), and even then the highest was by 7 games. Otherwise Gretzky was at a faster (at times noticeably faster) clip.

Here's the # of games Mario was behind Wayne to each interval. (bold shows the few times Mario narrowed the gap)

100: 12
200: 11
300: 27
400: 43
500: 57
600: 50
700: 54
800: 58
900: 78
1000: 89
1100: 86
1200: 89
1300: 94
1400: 89
1500: 127
1600: 145
1700: 176

To me.... This makes Mario look very good. Of course missed games are not counting against Mario here. If Mario was not so respected and you just look at his point totals which are comparable to Sakic/Yzerman/Messier etc... This shows how great he was compared to the best. Instead of Gretzky nearly doubling the pace of everyone else... He is merely ahead of Mario by around 10 ish percent as the point totals rise.

 

[Felidae]

This list is an absolutely amazing read - but it can also be kinda mis-leading when trying to compare head to head of players.


Jagr started out his career really slow (compared to his eventual peak level) whereas Crosby hit the ground running. It's a bit similar to Lemieux vs Gretzky - Lemieux started out much slower, whereas Gretzky hit the ground running. Because Gretzky was so dominant Lemieux barely made up ground on Gretzky over time, but Jagr certainly did make up ground on Crosby.

At 900 points it took Crosby 677 games compared to 681 games to Jagr. That's as closed as it gets - which is impressive for Jagr considering he started out slow.

Basically if you count games 1 to 677 (or 681 in Jagr's case) it's roughly equal.

If you count games 200 to ~680 for both players - I expect Jagr > Crosby
If you count games 0 to 200 for both players - I expect Crosby > Jagr

I think both players are very neck and neck up to Crosby's current place in his career overall. I think Jagr's resume over age 30 is definitely something Crosby can surpass though, so I do expect Crosby to pull ahead, maybe significantly so. But as of now it's very, very close.

Agree. Jagr's inability to produce elite points at the start of his career, and his Washington years which he evidently underachieved. Will be the deal breaker for Crosby>Jagr. But really, while the stats slightly favour Crosby. I don't think he was more talented than Jagr. But considering that Jagr is one of my favourite players, I'm probably not being impartial.

 

[bobholly39]

Really goes to show you how insane Gretzky was.

If you look at him and Lemieux, Mario only manages to out pace him 4 times out of 17 (100 to 200 points, 500 to 600, 1000 to 1100, and 1300 to 1400), and even then the highest was by 7 games. Otherwise Gretzky was at a faster (at times noticeably faster) clip.

Here's the # of games Mario was behind Wayne to each interval. (bold shows the few times Mario narrowed the gap)

100: 12
200: 11
300: 27
400: 43
500: 57
600: 50
700: 54
800: 58
900: 78
1000: 89
1100: 86
1200: 89
1300: 94
1400: 89
1500: 127
1600: 145
1700: 176

Very cool breakdown of Lemieux vs Gretzky. I have to admit when this thread was first posted a few months ago, that's the first thing I looked for (and im sure im not alone) how Lemieux compares to Gretzky.

Three big things explain the gap between the two overall:


1. Gretzky started much stronger. Lemieux was a slow starter, so right from the very start Gretzky built a ~40-50 or so point lead before Lemieux himself hit his stride and started to pace him.

2. Lemieux's peak years were very inconsistent. A lot if that is due to health issues - maybe some of it is due to him simply not being able to remain as consistent too, hard to say how much is just health vs not. But whereas Gretzky's prime is a straight line of consistency, Lemieux was more peaks and valleys.

3. Obviously - Lemieux hit his higher totals much later in age, so he again loses ground at ~1500 points or so as he's much older than Gretzky by that point, since I assume it's after his initial retirement. Whereas Gretzky likely hit 1500 points while still right in his prime.


I have to admit when I first saw this list i was surprised. I expected Gretzky to have an early lead of course - but I thought Mario in return would have "paced him" as you said a bit more than he did.

Looking at this list it's very obvious how superior to all other players these two were offensively.

 

[Sens Rule]

Very cool breakdown of Lemieux vs Gretzky. I have to admit when this thread was first posted a few months ago, that's the first thing I looked for (and im sure im not alone) how Lemieux compares to Gretzky.

Three big things explain the gap between the two overall:


1. Gretzky started much stronger. Lemieux was a slow starter, so right from the very start Gretzky built a ~40-50 or so point lead before Lemieux himself hit his stride and started to pace him.

2. Lemieux's peak years were very inconsistent. A lot if that is due to health issues - maybe some of it is due to him simply not being able to remain as consistent too, hard to say how much is just health vs not. But whereas Gretzky's prime is a straight line of consistency, Lemieux was more peaks and valleys.

3. Obviously - Lemieux hit his higher totals much later in age, so he again loses ground at ~1500 points or so as he's much older than Gretzky by that point, since I assume it's after his initial retirement. Whereas Gretzky likely hit 1500 points while still right in his prime.


I have to admit when I first saw this list i was surprised. I expected Gretzky to have an early lead of course - but I thought Mario in return would have "paced him" as you said a bit more than he did.

Looking at this list it's very obvious how superior to all other players these two were offensively.

Yes it makes Mario look good and stand out with Gretzky.

But also... Gretzky didn't miss hardly any games.

This is how ridiculously consistent Gretzky was. From his 200-300 point through his 1700-1800 point. Covering almost a decade and from like 81-89.

From 200-300 points it took him:
42 games all the next number of games to get his next 100 points
38
37
39
42
35
33
39
40
40
35
41
40
37
44
43

That is 200-1800 points. That is crazy consistent. He was just money in the bank to get 100 points every 40ish games. And he was rarely injured. He was just a point machine.

 

[daver]

I'm not talking so much about era's being stronger (although we have cases where that has happened too) but about individual seasons being stronger and weaker in terms of top-end competition.

For example, 10-11 season compared to 08-09 season. In the first one, Crosby got injured and Ovechkin regressed. Malkin did both. In my opinion, those three were better in 08-09 than Daniel Sedin, Martin St.Louis and Corey Perry were in 10-11.

This is why we can look at a large number of peers over multiple seasons to eliminate these one off type arguments. A relatively weak Top 3 in 2010/11 doesn't change the overall numbers and the conclusion drawn from them because it's 3 PPGs out 350. And I am sure injuries and regression can be applied to Lindros' seasons too. It all gets evened out by looking at more numbers relevant to the discussion.

Crosby's PPG over seven seasons and compared to a large number of his direct peers shows a clear advantage. The obvious higher scoring by the Top 50 scorers in their respective first seven seasons shows that they played in different scoring environments thus negating a direct comparison of their PPG.

 

[Vujtek]

Will be interesting to see how high on the list McDavid will make it, if he makes the list at all that is. McDavid will head into the season with 48 points in 45 games. The only active players to have reached their 100th career point before their 100th NHL game are:

16. Alexander Ovechkin 77 GP
23. Sidney Crosby 80
32. Evgeni Malkin 89
65. Paul Stastny 99

Probably shouldn't rule out Artemi Panarin (77 points in 80 games so far) making the list too. Going to be close one with him.

Panarin didn't make the list as he got his 100th point in his 107th game.

McDavid is sitting at 82 games and 90 points. Needs 10 points in the next 7 games to match Malkin. Doable though McDavid is slumping currently.

Patrick Kane made the list for the first time at 700 points (696 games) while Malkin continued his top-30 pace by scoring his 800th point in his 680th game (28th fastest all-time).

 

[BF_Sweden]

McDavid is sitting at 82 games and 90 points. Needs 10 points in the next 7 games to match Malkin. Doable though McDavid is slumping currently.

Connor McDavid netted his 100th point in his 92nd career game. Elias Pettersson has 50 points right now, after 45 games. He is on pace to beat McDavid and reach the 100 mark in two less games. Its interesting games ahead

 

[Eisen]

Gretzky has nothing on Lalonde.

 

[Thenameless]

Agree. Jagr's inability to produce elite points at the start of his career, and his Washington years which he evidently underachieved. Will be the deal breaker for Crosby>Jagr. But really, while the stats slightly favour Crosby. I don't think he was more talented than Jagr. But considering that Jagr is one of my favourite players, I'm probably not being impartial.

Jagr is more talented; a little bit more (or a lot more) of a prima donna. Crosby brings it more consistently and just tries harder in general. There's a reason he's called the best grinder in the game.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Connor McDavid netted his 100th point in his 92nd career game. Elias Pettersson has 50 points right now, after 45 games. He is on pace to beat McDavid and reach the 100 mark in two less games. Its interesting games ahead

The NHL scoring rate this season is substantially higher than it was in 2015-2016 and 2016-2017.

 

[Gambitman]

In some ways to me Gretzkys 2 +160 point seasons with the Kings are as impressive as some of his insane early records. I would say by late 80’s the 21 team dilution had sort of worked its way through the system, goaltending was getting better, and Gretzky was maybe just past his prime, and he was on the Kings instead of the Oilers. Yet he still puts up just over 2 points per game.

 

[The Panther]

In some ways to me Gretzkys 2 +160 point seasons with the Kings are as impressive as some of his insane early records. I would say by late 80’s the 21 team dilution had sort of worked its way through the system, goaltending was getting better, and Gretzky was maybe just past his prime, and he was on the Kings instead of the Oilers. Yet he still puts up just over 2 points per game.

The 21 teams was not a dilution, in my opinion; rather, it was actually a contraction. There were 35 pro-teams in North America in 1975, and by 1979-80 there were 21. That's a reduction of, like, 35%. Now, sure, maybe half the WHA players wouldn't have made the NHL at any time, but probably half would have (and many did later, and in fact many WHA-ers were ex-NHLers from the smaller NHL).

Having said all of that, I do agree that the c.1979 to 1982-ish NHL was a "weaker" NHL, if that's the right word, than the one after. By weaker, I mean, there were more bottom-2 defencemen and 'goon'-type players (7 min. per game) who wouldn't have been able to make NHL rosters even five or six years later. I may be biased here, because I started watching NHL in 1986-87 regularly, but when I look back at games from that season or later, I don't see it as incredibly different from today, other than of course the teams played a more aggressive offensive style. But when I look back at games/clip from the late-70s or very early-80s, it looks like a very different game to me. I think the Islanders and Oilers led the way in accelerating the game into the modern version.

Anyway, yes, Gretzky's first three seasons with L.A. were incredible, especially given the circumstances he was in. The most impressive was the last of those three, 1990-91. If you look at his half-season stats that I wrote on page one, I believe he scored more points in the latter-half of 1990-91 than he did in 1986-87.

 

[VanIslander]

100 points
28. Blair MacDonald 85
52. Dan Daoust 95
62. Brett Callighen 98

200 points
64. Jörgen Pettersson 197

Waaa? Who?

 

[The Panther]

Looking back at the 200-points lists, I initially thought Mario's number was a mistake. It shows (correctly, as it turns out) that he scored his 200th point in his 128th game. I thought that might be wrong, because he scored 100 and then 141 points in his first two seasons, during which he played a total of (73 + 79 =) 152 games.

But it's correct. Mario scored his 200th career point on Feb.16th 1986 against Vancouver. His pace must have slowed down just a bit late in the 1985-86 season, because after that game he had 101 points in 55 games.

In the Gretzky-chase, though, the 200-ish point mark was as close as Mario would get to Wayne, as Gretzky put it into overdrive from midway through his second season (1980-81) and didn't let up until he was Suter-ed 10.5 years later.

 

[The Panther]

Jari Kurri was faster to 600 points than Lindros or Crosby!

 

[Vujtek]

Waaa? Who?

Brett Callighen and Blair MacDonald were Gretzky's wingers, not only from Gretzky's 1st NHL year but also from the prior year in WHA. Gretzky factored into 98 out of 145 career points for Callighen and Gretzky/MacDonald combo were simultaneously on the scoresheet for a whopping 76 goals in Gretzky's rookie year. MacDonald had 94 points that year so Gretzky factored into 80% of his points that season. So these two rode shotgun next to Gretzky for his first two NHL seasons and greatly benefited from it.

Jörgen Pettersson was one of lesser known quality players of the Swedish invasion to NHL in the early 1980's (Kent Nilsson, Mats Näslund, Håkan Loob, Thomas Steen, Thomas Gradin etc.). Had a good but short NHL career. 30+ goals in each of his first NHL seasons.

I'm not too familiar with Dan Daoust either. Had a good start to his NHL career but flamed out quickly after a few seasons.

 

[Hynh]

A little late but McDavid hits 400 in game 306. What's interesting about his chase for 500 is that if he doesn't miss time for any reason this year game 82 will be his 369th, the same number it took Crosby to reach 500 points. In other words, if McDavid scores 128 this year he catches Crosby. If OP is still updating here are McDavid's other GP numbers. 200 in 173. 300 in 240.

Connor McDavid netted his 100th point in his 92nd career game. Elias Pettersson has 50 points right now, after 45 games. He is on pace to beat McDavid and reach the 100 mark in two less games. Its interesting games ahead

Pettersson comes close but being shutout in game 98 and 99 against McDavid leads him to come up 2 points shy of 100 in 100.