Fantasy Football

[ChiHawks10]

Honestly, it's confusing and I'm in three different FF leagues with various rules. None of the others has self-policing of IR slots, of course we don't use Yahoo. Making a mistake does not equate to deliberate theft or cheating man, c'mon.

It really falls on the commish to remedy stuff like this when it happens. As a commish in other leagues, I wouldn't put this type of monitoring on you.

Once is making a mistake. When you use it multiple times over a season... then it becomes deliberate.

And honestly, I wasn't monitoring anything, until it was brought to my attention, behind closed doors, that it had happened multiple times. I trust people until given a reason not to. Probably not the best quality to have. So it's my assumption we're all playing fair, and just having fun. Doesn't seem to be the case, though.

 

[hawksrule]

The Yahoo rules clearly state it:

• A player can stay on the IL, IR, or NA for the entire season, even if they return to real-life action.
• Players in IL, IR, IR+, or NA don't earn any points, even if they're earning stats in real-life games.
• Once activated in real-life, you can’t complete any transaction that adds a player until you activate the once ‘out’ player on your fantasy team.

So what he's doing is when a player is listed as Out on Sunday night, he has them in IR slots on his roster, and then he's putting in waiver claims while they're listed as Out and in the IR slot. That player's designation then goes back to being Questionable once the games are played for the week, and he should have to remove those players from IR, and move them back to his bench by activating them from IR, or he won't be allowed to add any players to his roster. What happens is, there's a bug where if the waiver claim was made while the player was on IR still, and designated as Out, it still processes the waiver claim, and allows the player to be added, against the rules of Yahoo's IR/roster management rules.

I tested it this week with Greg Olsen, to purposely see whether this is a cheat than can be exploited for personal gain. He was in my IR spot. I made a waiver claim on Sunday after the games were played, and he was still on IR. It allowed the waiver claim to be processed without any issues, and would have added my player once waivers opened up on Wednesday morning. Because Olsen was still listed with an "Out" designation and in my IR slot.

I then cancelled that waiver claim yesterday, after Olsen was moved back to Questionable designation. I then put in a new waiver claim, and I was denied, stating I had to remove Olsen from IR as he was no longer eligible. I had to remove Olsen from IR, drop a player to do so(which I did drop the New York Jets defense) as can be seen in our league transaction log, then create the waiver claim, which wasn't able to process prior, because I was over the max roster size limit. Only once I dropped a player, and moved Olsen off IR, was I able to put in a claim.

So, essentially, if you put all your waiver claims in on Sunday night while players are still designated as "Out" and in your IR slots, you could add as many players to your roster as you had on IR, and go over the max roster size, thus gaining an advantage in that you have more players to choose from to start on your active roster, and you're also preventing other users from adding those players, as they can then be dropped, and have to sit on waivers for two days before they become free agents again(or you have to use your waiver spot to claim them when you shouldn't have had to).

@AmericanDream caught him doing this in two separate instances this season, and called him out on the second time, just a couple weeks ago. That conversation can be read a couple pages back in this thread. He never denied using said bug to gain an advantage. He simply said "I dropped a couple players in the spirit of sportsmanship".

This is not the way the system was intended to work. This is not the way you play fantasy sports, by exploiting a bug to gain an advantage over the other players. Particularly when real money is involved.

I'm not calling him a thief. I'm saying he's cheating the system to gain a competitive advantage over everyone else in the league. There is still a lot of luck and chance in fantasy sports, so it's not going to guarantee him wins, but it definitely gives him an advantage over other people who are either A. Playing by the rules, or B. Unaware of the existence of the bug.

Interesting. This appears to hinge on the precise definition of what: "you can’t complete any transaction" means. What do the rules say regarding the difference between completing a transaction and submitting a transaction? If what Coldy did was submit a transaction (within the rules), and he took no further action, it's not clear to me how he violated any rules of completing a transaction, since he took no further action beyond what was in the confines of the rules.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I think any type of self-policing in a fantasy league is problematic and almost always turns out like this. You need to eliminate it altogether. I have similar horror stories throughout the years in other leagues.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Interesting. This appears to hinge on the precise definition of what: "you can’t complete any transaction" means. What do the rules say regarding the difference between completing a transaction and submitting a transaction? If what Coldy did was submit a transaction (within the rules), and he took no further action, it's not clear to me how he violated any rules of completing a transaction, since he took no further action beyond what was in the confines of the rules.

I mean, if you wanted to look at it that way, it's a loophole, and technicality, that you'd be using to absolve him of blame. Completing a transaction, though, means to add a player. When you submit a waiver claim, the completion of the transaction is automatic. It is processed by Yahoo's system at 3:30am(generally) Wednesday mornings. By choosing the player he wants to add, and choosing the player he wants to drop(if necessary), and hitting submit, he's essentially "Completing a transaction". That transaction is set in stone, and will happen automatically, at the designated time.

And honestly, it doesn't even matter at this point. I lost my temper when I got piled on by multiple people(one of which was CS for seemingly no reason), and defended myself by going on the offensive. After calming down, it's all stupid anyways. It's all dick swinging on an internet message board, through text, anonymously.

If CS comes on here and says he didn't know this was against the rules up until he was made aware of it a couple weeks ago, then I have no problem retracting everything I've said.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I mean, if you wanted to look at it that way, it's a loophole, and technicality, that you'd be using to absolve him of blame. Completing a transaction, though, means to add a player. When you submit a waiver claim, the completion of the transaction is automatic. It is processed by Yahoo's system at 3:30am(generally) Wednesday mornings. By choosing the player he wants to add, and choosing the player he wants to drop(if necessary), and hitting submit, he's essentially "Completing a transaction".

But what if he thinks the guy is going to be Out indefinitely. How is he supposed to know as things change? I honestly didn't know I couldn't put waiver claims in when I had a guy on IR if he would be Q on D on Tuesday after the fact. I would have been making the same mistake.

 

[ChiHawks10]

But what if he thinks the guy is going to be Out indefinitely. How is he supposed to know as things change? I honestly didn't know I couldn't put waiver claims in when I had a guy on IR if he would be Q on D on Tuesday after the fact. I would have been making the same mistake.

That's what I was explaining earlier. It doesn't matter. They still get bumped to questionable each week(unless on the actual NFL IR list), which is supposed to prevent exploiting IR slots by being able to add multiple players over the max roster size.

 

[chicagoskycam]

That's what I was explaining earlier. It doesn't matter. They still get bumped to questionable each week(unless on the actual NFL IR list), which is supposed to prevent exploiting IR slots by being able to add multiple players over the max roster size.

So basically you cannot put a guy on IR and process a move prior to Tuesday without that player in the official NFL IR slot. So the Stafford move I did was illegal in that sense even though he technically has always been O on game day since he missed his 1st game. This is a mess to deal with it. The only other solution is locking out moves until Tuesday afternoon.

 

[hawksrule]

I mean, if you wanted to look at it that way, it's a loophole, and technicality, that you'd be using to absolve him of blame. Completing a transaction, though, means to add a player. When you submit a waiver claim, the completion of the transaction is automatic. It is processed by Yahoo's system at 3:30am(generally) Wednesday mornings. By choosing the player he wants to add, and choosing the player he wants to drop(if necessary), and hitting submit, he's essentially "Completing a transaction". That transaction is set in stone, and will happen automatically, at the designated time.

And honestly, it doesn't even matter at this point. I lost my temper when I got piled on by multiple people(one of which was CS for seemingly no reason), and defended myself by going on the offensive. After calming down, it's all stupid anyways. It's all dick swinging on an internet message board, through text, anonymously.

I think you're oversimplifying it. My understanding is that a waiver pickup isn't guaranteed. So how can it be deemed a completed transaction at the time of submission if it may not even occur. Furthermore, my main point really wasn't a technicality. If the submission was made legally, and the participant took no action other that what everyone can agree was a legal action, what specific action did he take that was not legal?

 

[ChiHawks10]

So basically you cannot put a guy on IR and process a move prior to Tuesday without that player in the official NFL IR slot. So the Stafford move I did was illegal in that sense even though he technically has always been O on game day since he missed his 1st game. This is a mess to deal with it. The only other solution is locking out moves until Tuesday afternoon.

Right, it's a bug in Yahoo's system. It shouldn't allow waiver claims to be submitted prior to players being designated for the week, but it does.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I think you're oversimplifying it. My understanding is that a waiver pickup isn't guaranteed. So how can it be deemed a completed transaction at the time of submission if it may not even occur. Furthermore, my main point really wasn't a technicality. If the submission was made legally, and the participant took no action other that what everyone can agree was a legal action, what specific action did he take that was not legal?

I may be oversimplifying it.

It's not, but if you submit multiple waiver claims for multiple players, you're guaranteed to win some of them.

And if you're in the #1 waiver spot, you'd be guaranteed to win that one also.

My point is, the system does not look to be functioning properly on Yahoo's side, and if a player chooses to do so, they can take advantage of it.

I guess you could say he's acting within the rules of the system in place, but when the rules of the system are broken, is that very sportsmanlike? I'd argue no.

You can make the distinction between "cheating" and "acting in an unsportsmanlike manner" in that case, but many wouldn't. They'd just see it as cheating a broken system.

 

[hawksrule]

I may be oversimplifying it.

It's not, but if you submit multiple waiver claims for multiple players, you're guaranteed to win some of them.

And if you're in the #1 waiver spot, you'd be guaranteed that move, also.

Let's break this down into component parts. To cheat means to proactively break the rules. Everyone's agreeing that coldy submitted his claims legally and within the rules. What action did he take that was outside the rules? Is monitoring the injury report and withdrawing waiver requests that had been legally made incumbent on each participant per the rules of the bylaws? If yes, I'd agree with you, if not, it doesn't seem fair to publicly accuse someone of cheating who didn't proactively take any actions that broke any rules.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Let's break this down into component parts. To cheat means to proactively break the rules. Everyone's agreeing that coldy submitted his claims legally and within the rules. What action did he take that was outside the rules? Is monitoring the injury report and withdrawing waiver requests that had been legally made incumbent on each participant per the rules of the bylaws? If yes, I'd agree with you, if not, it doesn't seem fair to publicly accuse someone of cheating who didn't proactively take any actions that broke any rules.

I edited that post.

"I guess you could say he's acting within the rules of the system in place, but when the rules of the system are broken, is that very sportsmanlike? I'd argue no.

You can make the distinction between "cheating" and "acting in an unsportsmanlike manner" in that case, but many wouldn't. They'd just see it as cheating a broken system."

 

[chicagoskycam]

I assume he's in the playoffs, so what happens now.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I assume he's in the playoffs, so what happens now.

It's just playing out. Like I said, I'm over it. Yahoo will pay him out if he wins. I'm ready to move on and be done with it.

 

[hawksrule]

I edited that post.

"I guess you could say he's acting within the rules of the system in place, but when the rules of the system are broken, is that very sportsmanlike? I'd argue no.

You can make the distinction between "cheating" and "acting in an unsportsmanlike manner" in that case, but many wouldn't. They'd just see it as cheating a broken system."

Again, if he is not taking any action that is against the rules, then it is not cheating regardless of what many would say. Your problem is that your rules aren’t well written. Change them to be more precise, or even make it simpler that you have X number of players including IR spots, and that’s that.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Again, if he is not taking any action that is against the rules, then it is not cheating regardless of what many would say. Your problem is that your rules aren’t well written. Change them to be more precise, or even make it simpler that you have X number of players including IR spots, and that’s that.

Well, they're Yahoo's rules, not mine. So I have no control over that.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Well, they're Yahoo's rules, not mine. So I have no control over that.

Yeah but nowhere in Yahoo's rules does it say you can't or cannot do what we are talking about, right?

Either way, the lesson learned from next year. I would suggest if you use the same format next year you just make sure everyone plays by the same rules.

 

[hawksrule]

Well, they're Yahoo's rules, not mine. So I have no control over that.

That’s silly. It’s your league, you make the rules.

 

[Styles]

Did he do it again recently or are we still talking from weeks ago? I had no idea guys went from out to questionable over night so in my mind you can’t predict the future of a players injury. Also the waiver claims are set up that the last person not to make a claim is at the top of the list right? So if he’s making a bunch of claims most of us will get the player over him anyway. I’m not seeing a huge advantage here especially with the amount of guys we have on our rosters. Idk it’s a weird loophole but nothing to drag someone’s name through the dirt over.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Skip to the bottom for my simple explanation. The rest is just me getting a few things off my chest.

——————————————-

I mean, the accusation wasn’t just that I cheated one time in fantasy football. It was that I have cheated multiple times in football, hockey and baseball. It was that I am only near the top of standings most of the time because I exploit a bug in the system. It’s that I am near the top of the list in moves made because I am exploiting a bug.

What it really all means is that I am a fraud. That nobody should listen to anything I say because I am a liar and a cheat. That any success I have is invalid because I never possessed the knowledge or talent to acquire it.

Maybe these conversations have already been had about me on DM as was said.

Fact is I never cheated, not one time. I don’t lie or cheat. I don’t blame others when I fail or am wrong. I blame myself and that is why I improve and succeed. I don’t let ego get in the way of improvement. Sounds simple but it was an acquired skill that came when it came. My best talent is reading people, situations and seeing patterns. When I was here many years ago, I used to brag about it all of the time. That was me being insecure and that is an entirely different story for a different venue. I wasn’t nearly as good as I thought I was and I was always aware of that but couldn’t accept it. And guess what, we played fantasy leagues back then too and my teams were consistently among the worst in the league. Turns out I wasn’t any good.

It’s not like that anymore, at all. That might be hard for some people here to accept but it ain’t going away.

Fun fact. I don’t even remember much of anything about any of you guys from the first time I was here. I didn’t even know CH10 existed until I came back. There’s probably a million arguments and conversations here that suggest I should but I don’t. Anyone who doesn’t like me from back then, let it go because I don’t remember anything about it anyway.

————————————

A few weeks ago I put in a waiver claim for Jeff Driskel on a Sunday night while watching football. I had some players on my IR at the time. Didn’t think anything of it until AD brought it up here a few days later. I just dropped some players to shut him up about it. And because I thought I could drop those players and win anyway because I like my team and trust myself to overcome it. I don’t even know what happened with the move but I highly doubt there is a bug that nobody on the internet is talking about outside of here.

P.S.- I have never won a league championship here.

 

[hawksrule]

Chihawks, it seems pretty clear that he didn't cheat, which as I said before, is the same as calling him a thief (someone who wins by cheating is stealing people's money). It may or may not have been in the spirit of the rules depending on his true intent, but as we've established, he broke no rules. I have no horse in this race, other than not liking to see people unfairly ganged up on. I think you owe him an apology.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I completely retract all accusation of cheating. Thanks for the explanation CS. I did send you a PM earlier. I just had one question, and asked it in there. Answer if you want, or not. Doesn't matter to me. As I said, be pissed at me or whatever, but I'm man enough to apologize when I'm wrong. Sorry.

And we really haven't ever had any arguments until recently. As I said, we even met in person downtown at the bar, and hung out a bunch that night. I'm not sure where the animosity came from more recently, or why you seemed to lash out at me, personally, this morning. So

Fact remains, I was being piled on, and then you came out of nowhere to add to it for no reason, and it was the straw that broke the camel's back, so my anger was lasered focused at you. Happens to the best of us. Sorry for that too.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Chihawks, it seems pretty clear that he didn't cheat, which as I said before, is the same as calling him a thief (someone who wins by cheating is stealing people's money). It may or may not have been in the spirit of the rules depending on his true intent, but as we've established, he broke no rules. I have no horse in this race, other than not liking to see people unfairly ganged up on. I think you owe him an apology.

Already done.

 

[ColdSteel2]

I completely retract all accusation of cheating. Thanks for the explanation CS. I did send you a PM earlier. I just had one question, and asked it in there. Answer if you want, or not. Doesn't matter to me. As I said, be pissed at me or whatever, but I'm man enough to apologize when I'm wrong. Sorry.

And we really haven't ever had any arguments until recently. As I said, we even met in person downtown at the bar, and hung out a bunch that night. I'm not sure where the animosity came from more recently, or why you seemed to lash out at me, personally, this morning. So

Fact remains, I was being piled on, and then you came out of nowhere to add to it for no reason, and it was the straw that broke the camel's back, so my anger was lasered focused at you. Happens to the best of us. Sorry for that too.

I accept your apology. I’ll look at the PM again later and perhaps respond. There’s no way we didn’t argue about Bowman or the Hawks going “all in” to win championships back in the day even if I don’t specifically remember them. I bet I agrued with everyone here about that, lol, it was my schtick and I was a basket case about it. But that’s long gone.

I am sorry about joining the dog pile this morning. I’m pissed off about the team too. I just honestly think Bowman is the reason why it sucks, not because he is an idiot, but because he does not know when to put his foot on the gas and when to brake. One of the few things I was right about years ago. Put that on McDonough if you want. I put it on him. This season has been a complete train wreck that a blind man could see coming, even down to the Shaw concussion and de Haan shoulder injury. We’re all frustrated about that now. I’ve been frustrated about it since June. It’s whatever though, glass half full, he’s a hell of tank commander. Legendary. We move on.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I accept your apology. I’ll look at the PM again later and perhaps respond. There’s no way we didn’t argue about Bowman or the Hawks going “all in” to win championships back in the day even if I don’t specifically remember them. I bet I agrued with everyone here about that, lol, it was my schtick and I was a basket case about it. But that’s long gone.

I am sorry about joining the dog pile this morning. I’m pissed off about the team too. I just honestly think Bowman is the reason why it sucks, not because he is an idiot, but because he does not know when to put his foot on the gas and when to brake. One of the few things I was right about years ago. Put that on McDonough if you want. I put it on him. This season has been a complete train wreck that a blind man could see coming, even down to the Shaw concussion and de Haan shoulder injury. We’re all frustrated about that now. I’ve been frustrated about it since June. It’s whatever though, glass half full, he’s a hell of tank commander. Legendary. We move on.

Thanks. I was pretty low-key back in the day, and under a diff name, I believe. I did a lot of creeping, and not much posting. Even when I first registered under this name, I didn't post a ton. So it's not surprising we didn't argue.

I think that's the biggest issue. We're all pissed about the team, and taking it out on each other more than anything else.