FA/Trade Thread 2014-15 Season V.11 - Trade Deadline Approaching

[ACC1224]

I would rather keep dion than retain a penny on him.
Leafs shouldnt retain money on any player, dion is paid fair money for what he is... Franson may get 'jaybo' money as a ufa, and he isnt half as good as dion

Seems about right.
Phanuef > Jay Bo > Franson

 

[RLF]

dion is not even close to being paid fair market and that's the point of where all this "we might have to retain sal" comes from in the media

you think they are making that kinda talk up? it's out there , it's known

he is not worth the 6th highest D cap hit in the league, regardless when or under what conditions it was inked , to other GMs that matters not

what matters is "if they want him" , making his cap hit fit on that contending team.

the numbers out there right now, strongly suggest the cap will not rise at all or even drop by about 1.5m

Exactly. The Leafs have not crumbled or looked worse on D without him either, which is not helping his value any. He is a solid #2 and should be at about $5.5 -$5.75 for the type of player he is. Then he is good value and easy to move...or keep.
At $7X7, he is not good value which makes him harder to move or keep.
Unfortunately, it is that simple.

 

[RLF]

Seems about right.
Phanuef > Jay Bo > Franson

I find it odd how many put Dion over JBO. JBO was picked over Phaneuf for Team Canada(Olympics) very recently, so I am not sure the NHL execs would agree with Dion's supporters. Add in contract, and I don't think the "value" is even close.

 

[ACC1224]

I find it odd how many put Dion over JBO. JBO was picked over Phaneuf for Team Canada(Olympics) very recently, so I am not sure the NHL execs would agree with Dion's supporters. Add in contract, and I don't think the "value" is even close.

Different types of Players, they were building a Team.

Retaining salary to make a move is more indicative of a Cap world then a comment of the Player.

 

[mydnyte]

How does that screw them later? Dion will be easier to move the farther into his contract he gets and it gives them another solid vet to pair with their kids. They already screwed up by throwing Myers to the wolves with no help, this is why they traded for Gorges(imo). Mezaros, another vet, they gave no commitment and he helped them reach the cap floor. They will likely be getting McDavid or Eichel, so Grigorenko and a late 1st is fairly easy for them to give up to solidify their defence, which will make it easier on their young kids to develop, including young forwards.
It also allows them to move a d prospect for a forward prospect.

Easy, because that is short sightedness to not think it will hamper them.
They have a slew of young players, and likely one of Mcdavid Eichel on the horizon, and they will all need huge deals by season 4-5, and that is cap space that will be used by Dion.
...and if you think Dion will be easy to move at his salary in 4-5 years when on the serious downside of his career, and still years remaining, you need to rethink thing.
People think Robidas is unmovable at his contract, imagine if his deal was for double the $$ as Dions will be, and he may not have as much left in the tank as Robidas does now.

 

[mydnyte]

dion is not even close to being paid fair market and that's the point of where all this "we might have to retain sal" comes from in the media

you think they are making that kinda talk up? it's out there , it's known

he is not worth the 6th highest D cap hit in the league, regardless when or under what conditions it was inked , to other GMs that matters not

what matters is "if they want him" , making his cap hit fit on that contending team.

the numbers out there right now, strongly suggest the cap will not rise at all or even drop by about 1.5m

Lol, the media... Yea, thats as good as saying, i read it on the internet. Compare Dions salary to mark staal, and tell me who is overpaid?

 

[ACC1224]

Leafs need to retain salary = Phanuef is no good

Leafs retain salary on Gunnar = Leafs are stupid.

 

[RLF]

Different types of Players, they were building a Team.

Retaining salary to make a move is more indicative of a Cap world then a comment of the Player.

I am not arguing that they aren't different types of players or that retaining salary isn't a cap era thing(I said the same thing earlier in this thread). Fact is, one was still picked and the other wasn't, yet you have Dion higher than JBO and claim it was because they are "different players". So how do you conclude Dion>JBO then?

 

[Barilko14]

Kessel plus decent prospect (maybe Brown) To WPG

Bogosian and Ehlers to TOR

Reason TOR does it - to get young top 4 dman that can play tough minutes, still room to grow in his game, and to stockpile as many talented prospects as possible (Ehlers) in the hopes that one makes it big.

Reason Wpg does - have the cap space, have a big team, but needs more scoring, Kessel would solidfy their top 6, and Bogosian is somewhat expendable with Buff and Trouba as RD. Also doesn't derail they're slow build as Kessel is not that old.

Wpg top 6 of:
Ladd - Scheifele - Kessel
Kane - Little - Wheeler

Would make them respectable now, and long-term. Kessel could really help Scheifele or Little get to next level.

Top 4 still respectable with:
Enstrom - Buff
Stuart - Trouba

With Morrisey on his way.

Toronto can stick with Phaneuf and pair him with Bogosian or deal him for a young C (O'Reilly) and allow Gardiner or Reilly to pair with Bogosian.

Toronto may have to add depending on Ehlers value.

 

[RLF]

Easy, because that is short sightedness to not think it will hamper them.
They have a slew of young players, and likely one of Mcdavid Eichel on the horizon, and they will all need huge deals by season 4-5, and that is cap space that will be used by Dion.
...and if you think Dion will be easy to move at his salary in 4-5 years when on the serious downside of his career, and still years remaining, you need to rethink thing.
People think Robidas is unmovable at his contract, imagine if his deal was for double the $$ as Dions will be, and he may not have as much left in the tank as Robidas does now.

Easy. lol
Hmmm, one minute you claim Dion has way more value then people on here are saying and we shouldn't have to retain salary...the next, Buffalo will be crippled by his contract in 4-5 years and it will be an immovable contract. How is it both? And I need to rethink how I view things?
Just curious, how is his value so high that we shouldn't have to retain any of his contract and still get a good return...Unless he gets moved to Buffalo? How does that make sense?

 

[dubplatepressure]

Kessel plus decent prospect (maybe Brown) To WPG

Bogosian and Ehlers to TOR

Reason TOR does it - to get young top 4 dman that can play tough minutes, still room to grow in his game, and to stockpile as many talented prospects as possible (Ehlers) in the hopes that one makes it big.

Reason Wpg does - have the cap space, have a big team, but needs more scoring, Kessel would solidfy their top 6, and Bogosian is somewhat expendable with Buff and Trouba as RD. Also doesn't derail they're slow build as Kessel is not that old.

Wpg top 6 of:
Ladd - Scheifele - Kessel
Kane - Little - Wheeler

Would make them respectable now, and long-term. Kessel could really help Scheifele or Little get to next level.

Top 4 still respectable with:
Enstrom - Buff
Stuart - Trouba

With Morrisey on his way.

Toronto can stick with Phaneuf and pair him with Bogosian or deal him for a young C (O'Reilly) and allow Gardiner or Reilly to pair with Bogosian.

Toronto may have to add depending on Ehlers value.

We shouldn't be adding anything to Ehlers + Bogo, not especially one of our better prospects.

 

[ULF_55]

I am not arguing that they aren't different types of players or that retaining salary isn't a cap era thing(I said the same thing earlier in this thread). Fact is, one was still picked and the other wasn't, yet you have Dion higher than JBO and claim it was because they are "different players". So how do you conclude Dion>JBO then?

The people who chose the team have no loyalty to anyone except winning.

They chose the best players for the team, and chose players who could skate and would fit in with what they wanted to do.

Flames traded for Bouwmeester and moved Phaneuf.

 

[Barilko14]

We shouldn't be adding anything to Ehlers + Bogo, not especially one of our better prospects.

Reason to add was I would assume WPG would value Ehlers pretty close to what we value Nylander. And Bogosian would hold pretty high value. Don't think many teams could afford to offer more than a Bogo and Ehlers.

 

[Smif]

I find it odd how many put Dion over JBO. JBO was picked over Phaneuf for Team Canada(Olympics) very recently, so I am not sure the NHL execs would agree with Dion's supporters. Add in contract, and I don't think the "value" is even close.

I think if you switch Phaneuf and JayBo it would be a lot more obvious. Put Phaneuf beside Pietrangelo on St Louis and he would look great. Make JayBo your #1 here in Toronto playing with Franson or whoever and he looks as bad if not worse than Dion.

 

[RLF]

The people who chose the team have no loyalty to anyone except winning.

They chose the best players for the team, and chose players who could skate and would fit in with what they wanted to do.

Flames traded for Bouwmeester and moved Phaneuf.

Oh, I know why he was picked and not Dion...bolded is the reason for others opinions I believe.

 

[RLF]

I think if you switch Phaneuf and JayBo it would be a lot more obvious. Put Phaneuf beside Pietrangelo on St Louis and he would look great. Make JayBo your #1 here in Toronto playing with Franson or whoever and he looks as bad if not worse than Dion.

So, if JBO was in Toronto, Phaneuf in STL, Team Canada wouldn't have picked JBO and took Phaneuf instead?

 

[TheCLAM]

JBO imo is better than Phaneuf

The problem with him is that everyone expected him to dominate the score sheet coming into the NHL. There always was a gap for people about his potential to be a top defensemen in this league. He's a very smart player with a high hockey IQ. I would take him over Phaneuf anyday tbh and that's more of a compliment to JBO than a knock on Dion.

I think at the time of JBo leaving Calgary you can draw some similarities to Phaneuf situation currently. I think Phaneuf will have value on the open market. It's not maybe overkill as JBo value to Stl however

 

[TheCLAM]

I think if you switch Phaneuf and JayBo it would be a lot more obvious. Put Phaneuf beside Pietrangelo on St Louis and he would look great. Make JayBo your #1 here in Toronto playing with Franson or whoever and he looks as bad if not worse than Dion.

You could realistically say that about any defensemen whose a boarderline #1. Theres little structure to our defense, so obviously human flaws will be exposed when you're the best player on an ahl defense

 

[The Podium]

So, if JBO was in Toronto, Phaneuf in STL, Team Canada wouldn't have picked JBO and took Phaneuf instead?

Potentially. It was well known that established chemistry was one of the biggest reason for some choices for team Canada. For example Kunitz made the nod over St. Louis originally.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Reason to add was I would assume WPG would value Ehlers pretty close to what we value Nylander. And Bogosian would hold pretty high value. Don't think many teams could afford to offer more than a Bogo and Ehlers.

Yah maybe. I mean, that's the type of return I'd expect for a top-5 scorer in the league though. Ehlers is your Brayden Schenn/Sean Couturier (8th OA) and Bogo is your Simmonds/Voracek. It's actually a very similar deal to those, and Kessel's value has to be more than either of Richards or Carter when they were dealt.

 

[RLF]

Potentially. It was well known that established chemistry was one of the biggest reason for some choices for team Canada. For example Kunitz made the nod over St. Louis originally.

Chemistry was a factor with Kunitz, yes...to play with Crosby. Where was Seabrook for Keith? Why was Hamhuis, Vlasic, Subban picked? Benn, Duschene, Marleau?
They picked a team they thought would win. Phaneuf(mostly cause of footspeed like Seabrook imo) was not picked. JBO was. The point is, Hard to claim Phaneuf>JBO. Why? for what reasons?

 

[RLF]

Yah maybe. I mean, that's the type of return I'd expect for a top-5 scorer in the league though. Ehlers is your Brayden Schenn/Sean Couturier (8th OA) and Bogo is your Simmonds/Voracek. It's actually a very similar deal to those, and Kessel's value has to be more than either of Richards or Carter when they were dealt.

Contract plays a role though. Carter/Richards were both considered to be on great contracts at the time(like JVR's). Kessel's is mostly considered ok, not great. That does play a factor in value.imo

 

[dubplatepressure]

Contract plays a role though. Carter/Richards were both considered to be on great contracts at the time(like JVR's). Kessel's is mostly considered ok, not great. That does play a factor in value.imo

Decent to good? Ok. But great? I don't know about that. With the length of Carters it could have gone either way. And I don't think anyone necessarily thinks Kessel's deal is that bad. Even if it does, at most I'd think we may have to chip in a depth defenseman to replace Bogo. Maybe Holzer. Still a boatload of money going that way, so maybe we take back a contract like Frolik.

Frolik
Ehlers
Bogosian

for

Kessel
Holzer

That seems reasonable, no?

 

[The Podium]

Chemistry was a factor with Kunitz, yes...to play with Crosby. Where was Seabrook for Keith? Why was Hamhuis, Vlasic, Subban picked? Benn, Duschene, Marleau?
They picked a team they thought would win. Phaneuf(mostly cause of footspeed like Seabrook imo) was not picked. JBO was. The point is, Hard to claim Phaneuf>JBO. Why? for what reasons?

It happens all the time. Are you really going to sit there and argue that Team Canada doesn't do it.

Look at the 2010 roster, Heatly - Thornton - Marleau, Keith-Seabrook

Seabrook wasn't there this olympics because he was beyond awful leading up to the team selection. And obviously chemistry isn't accounted when Subbans partner was Russian, Duchenes linemate was Swedish, etc. If two players are neck and neck but one has chemistry with someone already on the team, Team Canada picks the chemistry over a player who might be a bit better 10/10. All I'm saying is you can't use a team Canada nod as evidence for Bouwmeester being better since the decision was almost entirely due to chemistry and Bouwmeester at the time looked better than Phaneuf since he was a passenger and Phaneuf was trying to carry an AHL calibre D.

 

[Barilko14]

Decent to good? Ok. But great? I don't know about that. With the length of Carters it could have gone either way. And I don't think anyone necessarily thinks Kessel's deal is that bad. Even if it does, at most I'd think we may have to chip in a depth defenseman to replace Bogo. Maybe Holzer. Still a boatload of money going that way, so maybe we take back a contract like Frolik.

Frolik
Ehlers
Bogosian

for

Kessel
Holzer

That seems reasonable, no?

I could handle that from Leafs perspective, think would be pretty close for WPG, as they were pretty cautious to commit to Frolik last year. Might have to be a Granberg or someone with higher potential than Holzer.