Explain why Bobby Orr is consensus best D?

[Crosbyfan]

Video -1976 Canada Cup, Canada vs USSR confirms the opposite:



Hart is for the most valuable not for the best. See Taylor Hall, 2018.

Orr was in my opinion Canada's MVP for the 76 Canada Cup, but Perreault and Vachon stood out more in that game. Bobby Hull played a good two way game.
Orr may have been Canada's best defenceman in that one but not by a significant margin. His moves were there but nothing like the mobility he had a few years earlier.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Orr was in my opinion Canada's MVP for the 76 Canada Cup, but Perreault and Vachon stood out more in that game. Bobby Hull played a good two way game.
Orr may have been Canada's best defenceman in that one but not by a significant margin. His moves were there but nothing like the mobility he had a few years earlier.

Main point was how Orr played against the Soviets the only time he faced them as a pro.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Main point was how Orr played against the Soviets the only time he faced them as a pro.

I agree, got that and liked your comment...just adding my 2 cents.

 

[Staniowski]

Orr was in my opinion Canada's MVP for the 76 Canada Cup, but Perreault and Vachon stood out more in that game. Bobby Hull played a good two way game.
Orr may have been Canada's best defenceman in that one but not by a significant margin. His moves were there but nothing like the mobility he had a few years earlier.

37-year old Bobby Hull played very well.

You can really see how good Perreault and Potvin were in the '76 Canada Cup.

Orr played great but as others have said, he was a shadow of his healthier self.

 

[Crosbyfan]

37-year old Bobby Hull played very well.

You can really see how good Perreault and Potvin were in the '76 Canada Cup.

Orr played great but as others have said, he was a shadow of his healthier self.

I didn't think it was one of Potvin's better games but you could tell he was an impact player. He certainly had a presence.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I wish I could have seen Harvey at his peak, but my understanding of him was that he was merely a "great" player, like Bourque, who played on a great team. I could be wrong...who knows, maybe Orr was inspired by watching Harvey?

Watch the available games online where Harvey is there.He looks better and more modern than everyone else.

 

[FerrisRox]

I mean, obviously he was amazing and i can surely see why people would rank him nr 1. But is it really that surefire? I mean he had 6 amazing seasons on a stacked team, 3 decent ones and two really short ones. Meanwhile guys like Bourque and Potvin and Lidström were amazing for a much longer time. I know about how he revolutionized the position and all but still. Maybe in a different environment with healthy knees he becomes more human and then loses a bit of his mythical status?

I approach this with humility and admitted ignorance so please, no flamewars.

Because of his talent level.

 

[FerrisRox]

His drop off in play from regular season to playoffs bothers me and is why he is not the GOAT for me. Just two titles in three finals seems off, especially in an era of so much sudden dilution.

92 points in 74 playoff games for a defenseman bothers you?

Three trips to the Finals and two Cups (let's not forget two Conn Smythe trophies) from a guy who's career was essentially over at age 26 and you phrase it as he "just had" that?

 

[FerrisRox]

I mean, obviously he was amazing and i can surely see why people would rank him nr 1. But is it really that surefire? I mean he had 6 amazing seasons on a stacked team, 3 decent ones and two really short ones.

It's staggering that you are calling a season that he won the Norris Trophy as "decent."

 

[Asheville]

92 points in 74 playoff games for a defenseman bothers you?

Three trips to the Finals and two Cups (let's not forget two Conn Smythe trophies) from a guy who's career was essentially over at age 26 and you phrase it as he "just had" that?

For who some consider the GOAT (think about that), yes. If he's the greatest the sport has ever been able to produce, then it's somewhat underwhelming.

 

[Fantomas]

His drop off in play from regular season to playoffs

what

 

[57special]

Watch the available games online where Harvey is there.He looks better and more modern than everyone else.

I have, and talked to both my dad and others about Harvey. His deal was controlling the speed of the game when he had the puck on his stick. Can't say he was a better player than the Rocket or Beliveau, though that is comparing Apples and Oranges.

I don't think Harvey was head and shoulders above the great players in the league like Orr was.

 

[57special]

I'm really not sure there's any legitimate way to put Lemieux first. Gretzky's got him edged in just about every career offensive category imaginable.

If you like to judge things on peak, Orr and Gretzky still come out favorably to Lemiuex. And Howe comes pretty close.

If longevity is your king, Howe is easily best of all time, and Gretzky played many, many, many more games than Lemiuex at a super-high level.

Think offense is overrated? Orr and Howe are both recognized as having far more well-rounded games than Lemieux, and there's really not much reason to argue Lemieux over Gretzky in this metric either.

What ifs? Orr reached God mode faster than Lemieux and played defense, a position typically more forgiving to aging. So give them both perfectly healthy careers, and I think Lemieux is still looking up. And who knows how insane Gretzky's 90's would have been if not for his injury?

Are you a Cup counter or like team success (President's trophies, wins, etc.) to judge individuals? Gretzky and Howe have him beat, and Orr might match him.

Playoffs and best-of-best? Orr, Lemieux, and Gretzky all have two Smythes (it wasn't awarded at the start of Howe's career), but Gretzky, at least, had more, and more dominant, great runs than Lemieux.

International resumes? Once again, Gretzky's is better.

Heck, even in the eye test (which is one category where Lemieux probably does trump Gretzky), I'd give Orr the edge as the most dominant looking player I've ever seen. Lemieux was probably the second most apparent "man among boys" out there, but #4 *looked* like he was crushing the competition more than anyone else I've ever seen.

I do think Lemieux belongs in the Big 4, but he's the only member of that group who I just can't see putting first. No matter what criteria you chose, I think at least one other member of the Big 4 has him beat, and even if you want to average things across multiple criteria, I don't see any way to line them up so Lemieux comes out on top. I guess maybe if you want to base it solely on "what player, based on the eye test, looked like he was the most offensively dominant player of all time?", Lemieux might be the legit pick?

Another way i like to look at things is imagine if you could have a team of 5 Orr's, 5 Howe's, 5 Lemieux's, 5 Gretzky's . I would maintain that that the Howe's and the Orr's would play each other in the finals due to their two way play and overwhelming physical talents. I would also guess that Orr would win because of his ability to play superior defense, though it's possible that Howe's overall toughness would allow him to grind his way to victory. Much is made of Orr's toughness, but Howe was in a different league there. Orr was surrounded by a very tough team that(rightly) protected him from a lot of mayhem, while Howe, at times, WAS the mayhem, in his own quiet way.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I have, and talked to both my dad and others about Harvey. His deal was controlling the speed of the game when he had the puck on his stick. Can't say he was a better player than the Rocket or Beliveau, though that is comparing Apples and Oranges.

I don't think Harvey was head and shoulders above the great players in the league like Orr was.

Me neither for the record.

 

[Sentinel]

NHL games were televised in the Soviet Union circa 1970?

No, but they studied NHL games in their preparation process.

 

[Merya]

NHL games were televised in the Soviet Union circa 1970?

I bet KGB had several sources to get tapes for the Soviet team. Totally impossible for anyone but the elite ofcource. But what you said is a silly and naiive claim, with probably the motivation or obfuscate. Shame!

 

[Sentinel]

Bowman is possibly the only person to have coached them both (Canada Cups) and he ranked Orr ahead. Certainly a lot of experience coaching against both as well.

Bowman also ranked Lafleur ahead of both. FWIW Lafleur keeps getting underrated here

 

[85highlander]

Another way i like to look at things is imagine if you could have a team of 5 Orr's, 5 Howe's, 5 Lemieux's, 5 Gretzky's . I would maintain that that the Howe's and the Orr's would play each other in the finals due to their two way play and overwhelming physical talents. I would also guess that Orr would win because of his ability to play superior defense, though it's possible that Howe's overall toughness would allow him to grind his way to victory. Much is made of Orr's toughness, but Howe was in a different league there. Orr was surrounded by a very tough team that(rightly) protected him from a lot of mayhem, while Howe, at times, WAS the mayhem, in his own quiet way.

While Orr was surrounded by "a very tough team" as you rightly state, it should be noted that during Orr's ten years with the Bruins, he cumulatively had more penalty minutes than any of his teammates during those years. ('66-'76). He also had more fighting majors in his career in 600+ games than Howe (+ Mario Lemieux, + Wayne Gretzky ... 4, 600 combined games counting NHL +WHL). He could, and did, hold his own...for himself...and for his teammates.

Check out the beginning of this video as Orr comes in to defend teammates (note - he's defending them!!!)




And here, how Orr typically would pile drive his opponents to the ice while wailing on them (Irish temper, he he he...)

 

[JackSlater]

Bowman also ranked Lafleur ahead of both. FWIW Lafleur keeps getting underrated here

When did he? In his ranking of the top Canadian players in NHL history, Bowman had Lafleur #11 and Orr #1.

 

[rfournier103]

Actually, he was the best player of all time, not just the best defenseman.

1. He was the best - at everything. Some players skated fast, shot hard, etc., but Orr's skill, speed and athletism made him both the best defensive and offensive defenseman of all time. He could also hit, block shots and fight. There were no holes in his game. None.

2. Two time Art Ross winner - as a defenseman! No player before or since has done that. Oh, there's also the Three Harts, Two Conn Smythes and Two Stanley Cups... in ten years. He has six straight seasons of over 100 points (would have been more, but he missed almost all of the next two seasons before forced retirement). We're talking point totals of 120, 139, 117, 101 (in 63 games), 122 and 135. His goal totals during those six years were 33, 37, 37, 29 (in 63 games), 32 and 46. As a defenseman!

When some people (falsely ) suggest that Gretzky is the greatest of all time, I ask what kind of totals Orr would have gotten if he played centre. 200 points? Definitely. 230? Wouldn't put it past him. Then, I ask, what kind of a defenseman do you think Gretzky would have made? That's a laughable thought. Orr simply did everything better than anybody else.

3. Eight consecutive Norris Trophies.

4. His plus/minus in 1970-71 was 124. Soak that in for awhile. PLUS 124. His superstar teammate, Espo, who won the Art Ross that year, had 53 plus points less!

5. Think he was all offense? That same year, Orr was only on the ice for 55 even-strength goals against in 78 games.

6. Orr retired after the 1978-79 season with 270 goals and 645 assists for 915 points in 657 games, an average of 1.39 points per game as a defenceman. That's currently fourth best in history (only three of the greatest forwards of all time have more... Gretzky, Lemieux and Bossy). Orr’s career plus/minus record was plus-597. Again, that’s not a typo. Plus-597!

Gretzky's career plus/minus was far less at a plus-518, despite playing 830 more games than Orr.

7. His knees were so bad by 1976 that he missed almost the entire season. He had trouble getting in and out of cars. He had trouble walking. But he had no problem winning the MVP of the first Canada Cup on one leg.

I can go on, but I think I made more of enough of a case. By the way, Orr wasn't even my favorite player growing up... it was Guy Lafleur. He wasn't even my favorite Bruin... it was Espo. But the evidence to his greatness is overwhelming and hard to comprehend.

This might be the best post I've ever read here. Definitely one of my personal top 3.

I'm a Bruins fan who was just a baby when Orr was tearing up the NHL. I have no recollection of seeing him play on TV, nevermind in person. So, I only have YouTube, this forum, and my older friends and family as my connection to Orr. That being said, I have a tremendous appreciation for his contributions to the sport, and to the Boston Bruins. The Bruins were in very bad shape in the early 60s, and Orr pretty much saved and resurrected the franchise. No exaggeration.

Mr. Gallivan's 7 points make a stunning case for best defenseman of all time, and certainly made me think about the Orr/Gretzky debate.

I am thoroughly impressed, and there was alot there that I did not know. Thank you for sharing this.

Hats off to you, Sir.

 

[Canadiens1958]

When did he? In his ranking of the top Canadian players in NHL history, Bowman had Lafleur #11 and Orr #1.

Bowman's complete list linked:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/scotty-bowmans-top-100-canadian-players.1299145/

 

[bobbyking]

I'm really not sure there's any legitimate way to put Lemieux first. Gretzky's got him edged in just about every career offensive category imaginable.

If you like to judge things on peak, Orr and Gretzky still come out favorably to Lemiuex. And Howe comes pretty close.

If longevity is your king, Howe is easily best of all time, and Gretzky played many, many, many more games than Lemiuex at a super-high level.

Think offense is overrated? Orr and Howe are both recognized as having far more well-rounded games than Lemieux, and there's really not much reason to argue Lemieux over Gretzky in this metric either.

What ifs? Orr reached God mode faster than Lemieux and played defense, a position typically more forgiving to aging. So give them both perfectly healthy careers, and I think Lemieux is still looking up. And who knows how insane Gretzky's 90's would have been if not for his injury?

Are you a Cup counter or like team success (President's trophies, wins, etc.) to judge individuals? Gretzky and Howe have him beat, and Orr might match him.

Playoffs and best-of-best? Orr, Lemieux, and Gretzky all have two Smythes (it wasn't awarded at the start of Howe's career), but Gretzky, at least, had more, and more dominant, great runs than Lemieux.

International resumes? Once again, Gretzky's is better.

Heck, even in the eye test (which is one category where Lemieux probably does trump Gretzky), I'd give Orr the edge as the most dominant looking player I've ever seen. Lemieux was probably the second most apparent "man among boys" out there, but #4 *looked* like he was crushing the competition more than anyone else I've ever seen.

I do think Lemieux belongs in the Big 4, but he's the only member of that group who I just can't see putting first. No matter what criteria you chose, I think at least one other member of the Big 4 has him beat, and even if you want to average things across multiple criteria, I don't see any way to line them up so Lemieux comes out on top. I guess maybe if you want to base it solely on "what player, based on the eye test, looked like he was the most offensively dominant player of all time?", Lemieux might be the legit pick?

Mario had the toughest competition

 

[Merya]

Yeah, those 8 Norris trophies in a row, scoring titles (from the blue line), 2 Stanley Cups, best plus/minus player of all time, and best-on-best international tournament MVP really scream "could've been". Unfortunately, he just didn't achieve anything.

Wait wot? What best on best MVP? 76 really doesn't count. It's even worse than Messi in 2014. (except 76 wasn't b-o-b at all in the first place)
Wayne has more epic years than Orr has career. It's not close, except for Gretzky haters and really old nostagics.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I bet KGB had several sources to get tapes for the Soviet team. Totally impossible for anyone but the elite ofcource. But what you said is a silly and naiive claim, with probably the motivation or obfuscate. Shame!

What are you talking about now? What claim?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bowman also ranked Lafleur ahead of both. FWIW Lafleur keeps getting underrated here

Are you misinformed or do you just like to make stuff up?