Excellent SI Articles on PK

[crystal ball]

This piece is a lament for the demise of individual genius in favour of boring "system-based" hockey that allows slugs with no business being in the NHL to survive.

On Subban/Therrien, I think the argument that Subban's better for the team while playing the Therrien way is invalid. Yes, Subban will make mistakes when he plays his way. But he will also make some unbelievable plays and open up offensive opportunities for a Habs team that's got trouble scoring consistently. Subban as currently constituted is boring AND making mistakes. A more offensive style would take some of the pressure off a pretty weak defensive corps and, I think, help the team avoid this win-win-OT win-blowout loss pattern it's developing.

Like it or not, the Habs have committed to making Subban their centerpiece for the foreseeable future. They need to use him to his best advantage, but Therrien would have to change things for that to happen. Right now, it's like watching California Chrome doing carriage rides in Central Park.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No they weren't.

They went from a fantastic offensive force (not just Ovi) who won a Presidents trophy, to boring defensive team who scraped in as a 7th seed.

That's not improving at all.

The Montreal Canadiens were actually a much better team in 2013. The team was scoring, guys were allowed to carry the puck in, transition was better... At least from a systems stanpoint MT seemed to do a good job that year.

But what we saw last season was a return to what we've come to expect from MT. We suddenly became a "griding" team and the idea of carrying the puck over the blueline because somehow bad. The offense tanked and our defense was poor. We lived off of our goaltending.

Even this year with us being first overall, factor out the shootout goals (where we've done really well) and we're about dead even in goal differentials. We're consistently outshot, bottom third in offense again... Just doesn't make sense for a team with a roster as good as ours to struggle to score the way we do. Doesn't make sense that a guy like Subban who was progressing extremely well on a yearly basis to suddenly forget how to play hockey anymore. Anybody who thinks that PK is somehow a better player now than he was before simply doesn't know what he's talking about.

Again, it would be one thing if our goals for went down but our defense was good. But that hasn't been the case. We don't score well AND we don't defend well. And this season (unlike last year) we're getting absolutely killed in the first period.

Our record is great. But our record is not reflective of our play. And without stellar goaltending from Carey Price this team would drown.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Never mind the fact that, of course, he was voted the best blueliner in the league while playing under Therrien.

But I guess that was before Therrien randomly decided to beat all the talent out of him just because.

As usual when you get on these tirades, you sound completely disconnected from reality. But it's the usual spiel around here: anything we do well is because of the players, anything we do poorly is because of the coaches. Nice and simple.

As I said in my last post, I thought MT did really well from a systems standpoint in 2013. I said so at the time as well. The team actually played a good system and if we'd stuck with that I wouldn't be critical of him.

For whatever reason (maybe it was the slump at the end of 2013 or maybe it was a loss early in 2014) this guy changed the way he was coaching from a systems standpoint. Since that time the team and PK in particular has gone downhill.

Do you think Subban's better now? If not then why do you think that is? Did he just forget how to carry the puck?

 

[MathMan]

Never mind the fact that, of course, he was voted the best blueliner in the league while playing under Therrien.

There's not a lot of commonality between the way the 12-13 Habs played and the way they played from 13-14 onwards. That 12-13 Habs club was excellent. And I have no idea why Therrien did not just stick with what worked, instead of reverting to type.

 

[Stjonnypopo]

I have a hard time understanding how BergevinH can give so much flexibility to MT when he doesn't use his players' strengths to his advantage.He was all his players to be one big system with everyone that pulls their own weight and no one stands out.

Imagine how bad we'd be without Price; he isn't just good at stopping pucks, he inspires confidence and let's the team focus on scoring rather than compensating for bad goals.

 

[Habsawce]

As I said in my last post, I thought MT did really well from a systems standpoint in 2013. I said so at the time as well. The team actually played a good system and if we'd stuck with that I wouldn't be critical of him.

For whatever reason (maybe it was the slump at the end of 2013 or maybe it was a loss early in 2014) this guy changed the way he was coaching from a systems standpoint. Since that time the team and PK in particular has gone downhill.

Do you think Subban's better now? If not then why do you think that is? Did he just forget how to carry the puck?

If I had to guess, it was the playoff loss and embarrassment Therrien took from it that changed him back to his old self.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

There's not a lot of commonality between the way the 12-13 Habs played and the way they played from 13-14 onwards. That 12-13 Habs club was excellent. And I have no idea why Therrien did not just stick with what worked, instead of reverting to type.

The first year Therrien coached this team, his pathetic, flimsy, pee-wee SwarmD was exposed and maimed by The Sens.

He shored up defensive structure but gave up puck control and turned this team into a dump and chase grinding team. Silly over reaction by him.

 

[Markov4Captain]

Bergevin has said himself that the team isn't at maturity. A lot of our young players still have to improve and some of our prospects need to make it to the big team (Beaulieu/Tinordi) before we contend. That's why I think Bergevin is so lenient with MT; all the success we're having now is gravy. Its when Bergevin is done assembling the roster that MT will have to really prove his worth. That's when Bergy will be most critical. Right now we're in transition. My biggest fear is that we waste Price's prime years to get the right coach with the right system.

 

[habsfanatics*]

The first year Therrien coached this team, his pathetic, flimsy, pee-wee SwarmD was exposed and maimed by The Sens.

He shored up defensive structure but gave up puck control and turned this team into a dump and chase grinding team. Silly over reaction by him.

This is such a foolish intepretation of what happened in the Sens/Habs series. The habs controlled the series and the sens had better goaltending, but the habs were the better team, sometimes **** happens, no reason to change a thing there, but Therrien isn't the brightest coach in the NHL.

 

[Braun]

Anyone remember back in the day when a player who skate the whole length of the ice and score a goal? Now it is amazing if there is less than 2 passes to get into the offensive zone...PK BE PK.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

This is such a foolish intepretation of what happened in the Sens/Habs series. The habs controlled the series and the sens had better goaltending, but the habs were the better team, sometimes **** happens, no reason to change a thing there, but Therrien isn't the brightest coach in the NHL.

That's not the reality. If it were close the Habs would've won more than one game.

The preceding 15 games were also putrid, as teams were figuring out the SwarmD, of course the most fickle and reactionary of HFhabs were quick to blame Price and only Price instead of using their God-given critical thinking skills.

 

[habsfanatics*]

That's not the reality. If it were close the Habs would've won more than one game.The preceding 15 games were also putrid, as teams were figuring out the SwarmD, of course the most fickle and reactionary of HFhabs were quick to blame Price and only Price instead of using their God-given critical thinking skills.

Why do think this has to be the case? Did you watch the games? The habs outplayed Ottawa for the majority of every game. Price wasn't his best and Anderson was awesome. This **** happens all the freaking time. The habs outplayed Ottawa significantly in that series.

 

[MathMan]

That's not the reality. If it were close the Habs would've won more than one game.

It wasn't close: the Habs grossly dominated the games whenever the score was close, outchancing the Senators heavily, but Anderson stood on his head, Price was merely average, and the Habs started giving up on game as soon as they got behind by a couple goals.

The Habs' lack of composure was certainly a factor, but they were otherwise by far the better team. But in the playoffs sometimes the better team loses, and sometimes very quickly.

The team DID overreact in a huge way to that, though. The team took a step back that summer. Only one of Bergevin and Therrien seemed to learn from that mistake, though.

 

[MathMan]

Anyone remember back in the day when a player who skate the whole length of the ice and score a goal? Now it is amazing if there is less than 2 passes to get into the offensive zone...PK BE PK.

IMO that is the opposite of the problem. Most successful transitions include multiple players and lot of puck support. The Habs constantly try the long bomb pass, leading to icing after icing. Or else they just chip it out, which is always only a temporary solution. They do skate it across the neutral zone, but only if they have an odd-man rush, and the only D who ever really does is Beaulieu -- I honestly think Subban was told not to.

 

[Braun]

IMO that is the opposite of the problem. Most successful transitions include multiple players and lot of puck support. The Habs constantly try the long bomb pass, leading to icing after icing. Or else they just chip it out, which is always only a temporary solution. They do skate it across the neutral zone, but only if they have an odd-man rush, and the only D who ever really does is Beaulieu -- I honestly think Subban was told not to.

I agree with what you are saying but what I meant was more how the game has changed.

 

[habsfanatics*]

IMO that is the opposite of the problem. Most successful transitions include multiple players and lot of puck support. The Habs constantly try the long bomb pass, leading to icing after icing. Or else they just chip it out, which is always only a temporary solution. They do skate it across the neutral zone, but only if they have an odd-man rush, and the only D who ever really does is Beaulieu -- I honestly think Subban was told not to.

This, or Subban is confused on what is acceptable and what isn't. I have a hard time believing a coach would completely wipe out the number one skill of the best skater on the team by a country mile, but, I have to admit, it seems possible this is the case.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This, or Subban is confused on what is acceptable and what isn't. I have a hard time believing a coach would completely wipe out the number one skill of the best skater on the team by a country mile, but, I have to admit, it seems possible this is the case.

MT was critical of Subban when he was working on RDS (much the same way Tremblay was with Roy when he was an analyst for the network.) The first thing he talked about when he was hired was "making him a better person" and talked about how much time he spent "coaching him."

It seems pretty clear to me that he wanted a more conservative style from his star blueliner. That would be fine except that it mitigated his strengths. When Subban was doing his own thing he always had the puck on his stick. Now we see him playing conservatively, holding back, making the lead pass rather than rushing... The puck control portion of his game has been "coached" out of him.

He's not nearly the same player he used to be.

 

[Miller Time]

MT was critical of Subban when he was working on RDS (much the same way Tremblay was with Roy when he was an analyst for the network.) The first thing he talked about when he was hired was "making him a better person" and talked about how much time he spent "coaching him."

It seems pretty clear to me that he wanted a more conservative style from his star blueliner. That would be fine except that it mitigated his strengths. When Subban was doing his own thing he always had the puck on his stick. Now we see him playing conservatively, holding back, making the lead pass rather than rushing... The puck control portion of his game has been "coached" out of him.

He's not nearly the same player he used to be.

don't be too worried...

if anything, it's a great sign that, even when the coach is out to lunch, Subban is such a team player that he'll diminish his game in order to fit-in and be a "team" guy.

as soon as MB wakes the hell up and gets us the kind of leader in the HC position that will make the most of our talent, we'll see Subban emerge again at the dominant level he is capable of, and his team-first attitude will only help ensure that we get the best of both worlds.

With the contract that Moslon forced, Subban will thankfully be around long after MT (and MB if he can't figure it out) are back in the broadcast booth.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

It wasn't close: the Habs grossly dominated the games whenever the score was close, outchancing the Senators heavily, but Anderson stood on his head, Price was merely average, and the Habs started giving up on game as soon as they got behind by a couple goals.

The Habs' lack of composure was certainly a factor, but they were otherwise by far the better team. But in the playoffs sometimes the better team loses, and sometimes very quickly.

The team DID overreact in a huge way to that, though. The team took a step back that summer. Only one of Bergevin and Therrien seemed to learn from that mistake, though.

Can't believe you think that. The Sens' D pushed the flimsy Habs O to the outside and forced *WEAK* shooting opportunities. It was just like the Habs did against the Caps and Pens in that miracle run with Halak.

People watch games because then they get a clearer idea - I firmly do believe in analytics and abide by them but a shot isn't a shot everywhere on the ice (except when shooting against the Oilers, apparently) and while there were some bad calls the loss was ENTIRELY on the Habs. It was not even close and it was not AT ALL Price's *fault*. Just like it wasn't Anderson suddenly becoming a technically perfect goalie - every goalie can get scored on - it was terrible tactics.

Therrien responded in exactly the way I predicted, he made at least one d-man shore up to and stop them both from chasing the opponent all the time.

The issue is with the offense, which in turn puts pressure on the D, which in turn makes our D look weaker.

 

[LaP]

Anyways, they're exciting to watch, yes, but do they ultimately make your club better or worse?

Since 2000 Montréal results. Better than usual results in bold.

2000 : 18th - Out of playoffs - Rucinsky and Brisebois scoring leader
2001 : 24th - OOP - Koivu and Brisebois
2002 : 18th - 2nd round - Perreault and Brisebois
2003 : 20th - OOP - Koivu and Markov
2004 : 13th - 2nd round - Ribeiro and Souray
2006 : 15th - 1st round - Kovalev and Markov
2007 : 19th - OOP - Koivu and Souray
2008 : 3rd - 2nd round - Price first season and 84 points by Kovalev
2009 : 13th - 1st round - Kovalev and Hamrlik
2010 : 19th - Semies - Plekanec and Markov (Subban making his debut in the playoffs and most points by a D in the playoffs within the team)
2011 : 14th - 1st round - Plekanec and Subban (Subban was healthy scratch some games JM trying to make him a boring player to fit his boring system)
2012 : 28th - OOP - Pacman and Subban (Cunney season)
2013 : 4th - 1st round - Pacman and Subban (Norris season)
2014 : 9th - Semies - Pacman and Subban (Subban 4th most points by a D in the playoffs within all teams)

 

[MathMan]

Can't believe you think that. The Sens' D pushed the flimsy Habs O to the outside and forced *WEAK* shooting opportunities.

That was a myth dispelled by counting scoring chances, defined as shot attempts from the "home plate" (basically the high-percentage shot area).

It was just like the Habs did against the Caps and Pens in that miracle run with Halak.

That was also a myth dispelled by counting scoring chances. Montreal was incredibly fortunate to defeat both those vastly superior teams, and it was inevitable their luck wouldn't hold out forever. (And man did the Caps ever overreact to that loss.)

People reach for the "the defense forced shots to the outside" explanation whenever a team can't convert on a crapton of shots. This occasionally happens over the span of a game, but nine times out of ten, it hasn't. It simply is the normal behavior of humans finding a pattern where none exist.

Heck, I got fed the "Sens big defense kept the Habs away from rebounds!" line, so I scoured the play-by-play files, and IIRC, found each team took 4 rebound shots. But the Habs went 0-for-4 and the Sens went 3-for-4.

People watch games because then they get a clearer idea - I firmly do believe in analytics and abide by them but a shot isn't a shot everywhere on the ice (except when shooting against the Oilers, apparently)

I'm not talking about shots. I'm talking about hand-counted scoring chances. Scoring chances do follow shot attempts closely the vast majority of the time, but in this case we had people tallying up actual scoring chances. (I'll plug enattendantlesnordiques.blogspot.com here because that ought to be required reading for any Hab fan who knows French. Or can read a table and has access to Google translate.)

The Sens got shelled and got away with it because of goaltending. After last year's Habs season, we should know this can happen, and on a lot longer period than five measly games.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

By turning our Norris winner into sludge?

Well, he did win the Norris with Therrien as coach. Subban could never have won that Norris with Cunneyworth. He could never have won it if Therrien hadn't let him spend 2 minutes on every PP, while whipping the rest of the team into shape and allowing Subban to do his thing. Therrien provided the setting for Subban to win his Norris by changing the system, giving an offensive role to Subban.

Also Subban's current state is not that of "sludge". That's a dramatic exaggeration and overreaction.

Yeah, I don't see how this is pressing the right buttons.

Subban was pretty awesome in last year's playoffs.

Also, by pressing the right buttons I meant for the team. Not for Subban. Pressing the right buttons for the team might end up going against Subban's personal goals. But it's ok if the team is #1 overall. I'm ok with it.

At first, when MB and MT came in board I was very worried they'd drive Subban out of MTL but we're past that now. And I think it's important for Subban to smarten up in his risk taking. This SI article illustrated that very well. Going for big hits when it's not the right time, going for big plays when we're already leading.

I think Subban has twice the skill of Doughty but where Doughty kill Subban is in knowing when the time is right to free wheel. And that's way more important than anything.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well, he did win the Norris with Therrien as coach. Subban could never have won that Norris with Cunneyworth. He could never have won it if Therrien hadn't let him spend 2 minutes on every PP, while whipping the rest of the team into shape and allowing Subban to do his thing. Therrien provided the setting for Subban to win his Norris by changing the system, giving an offensive role to Subban.

Also Subban's current state is not that of "sludge". That's a dramatic exaggeration and overreaction.

He won the Norris with MT but he even didn't have training camp with him... he just dove right in and played. It's not like he'd been learning under MT for years.

I did think that MT had a good system at least in 2013. The team played well and more than that - they played unexpectedly well. I thought he still did a lot of dumb things but at the end of the day I was happy with how the team played. I gave him full marks on that system and allowing the players to skate.

As for the "sludge" - it's a relative term. Is he sludge compared to the average NHL blueliner? Of course not. Is he sludge compared to what he was? Absolutely.

And here's the thing... I think MT actually thinks Subban's a better defenseman playing the way he is now. I think he somehow figures that by playing conservatively, he's "taught" PK how to play the right way. He's dead wrong, but that's how MT wants him to play.

Anyone else get the feeling that PK is going along with it to secure the captaincy?

Subban was pretty awesome in last year's playoffs.

Sure. Because he played a totally different style than he is now. He was carrying the puck and doing his thing. We don't see that now.

For the first 20 games he looked like the best blueliner in the league. After that he was still good but looked lost on assignments, we saw him paired with Murray for a little bit... just wasn't the same. This season? Looks completely different.

Also, by pressing the right buttons I meant for the team. Not for Subban. Pressing the right buttons for the team might end up going against Subban's personal goals. But it's ok if the team is #1 overall. I'm ok with it.

We're even in goal differential, 27th in shots for, 19th in shots against, bottom third in offense and horrific on the PP. Once again, us being number one overall has nothing to do with Therrien.

At first, when MB and MT came in board I was very worried they'd drive Subban out of MTL but we're past that now. And I think it's important for Subban to smarten up in his risk taking. This SI article illustrated that very well. Going for big hits when it's not the right time, going for big plays when we're already leading.

I think Subban has twice the skill of Doughty but where Doughty kill Subban is in knowing when the time is right to free wheel. And that's way more important than anything.

I'd put the Subban of 2013 and the first 20 games of last year up against Doughty and be fine with it. The Subban I'm seeing now is nowhere near Doughty.

I have no idea why MT thinks that he's somehow improved this guy's game. All he's done is make him a shadow of his former self and it's sad to watch.

 

[CanadienShark]

Cut the top open, and use it to put the mini carrots in it when you bring your lunch to work. Don't you wanna save the planet?

Seriously though, I think it's an interesting point the author makes on Subban, but it's mostly stuff we either already heard, or we already knew...

An interesting article for sure. But yes, opening the bag of milk by cutting it isn't exactly a novel or revolutionary idea. I don't have anything to do with it AFTER I open it.

 

[sheed36]

Anyone remember back in the day when a player who skate the whole length of the ice and score a goal? Now it is amazing if there is less than 2 passes to get into the offensive zone...PK BE PK.

Yup. Saw it just last night in the Kings/Preds game from Drew Doughty.