Excellent SI Articles on PK

[24Cups]

I haven't seen this posted so I'll share the link to an online synopsis of a piece written by Michael Farber in SI this week. The online piece is written by Sam Page. Go to a bookstore and buy a coffee/(favorite beverage) and enjoy Farber's lengthy discourse on PK. I don't subscribe to SI anymore, the writing is still great, but I can't stand the number of ads in the now tissue-paper thin pages.

http://www.si.com/nhl/2014/11/19/eye-test-pk-subban-montreal-canadiens-advanced-stats

Click to read more...

 

[CastroLeRobot]

Are the comments locked or did no one notice this? I thought it was pretty interesting

 

[Habs_Apostle]

PK's an interesting case and, I think, a challenge for any coach. If you let him do his own thing, sometimes this will lead to big rewards, but sometimes, as well, to big failures. Also, if he's just off doing his own thing, it will hamper overall team structure. Worse yet, his teammates might come to resent him for playing so recklessly and then everything falls apart. I think there's a time and place for it, and maybe that's the job of a good coach, if its even possible, to try and get him to discern this. But you'd think if he was capable of it, he might have a "sense of things" by now. So maybe this is just always going to be PK: Why do I keep doing that coach?! I dunno, you gotta figure it out PK.

Interestingly, of course they're very different players, but Kovalev was kind of like this; I don't think half the time his teammates knew what he was going to do. I mean, they'd get a pass they didn't expect and thus couldn't capitalize on. And, of course, when that happens, sometimes they'll blame themselves but sometimes, I'm sure, they'll blame him for not buying into the system.

To have or to have not these kinds of players, that is the question! Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the missed body checks of Subban and lazy back checks of Kovalev or... er... sorry, getting carried way.

Anyways, they're exciting to watch, yes, but do they ultimately make your club better or worse?

 

[habitue*]

PK's an interesting case and, I think, a challenge for any coach. If you let him do his own thing, sometimes this will lead to big rewards, but sometimes, as well, to big failures. Also, if he's just off doing his own thing, it will hamper overall team structure. Worse yet, his teammates might come to resent him for playing so recklessly and then everything falls apart. I think there's a time and place for it, and maybe that's the job of a good coach, if its even possible, to try and get him to discern this. But you'd think if he was capable of it, he might have a "sense of things" by now. So maybe this is just always going to be PK: Why do I keep doing that coach?! I dunno, you gotta figure it out PK.

Interestingly, of course they're very different players, but Kovalev was kind of like this; I don't think half the time his teammates knew what he was going to do. I mean, they'd get a pass they didn't expect and thus couldn't capitalize on. And, of course, when that happens, sometimes they'll blame themselves but sometimes, I'm sure, they'll blame him for not buying into the system.

To have or to have not these kinds of players, that is the question! Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the missed body checks of Subban and lazy back checks of Kovalev or... er... sorry, getting carried way.

Anyways, they're exciting to watch, yes, but do they ultimately make your club better or worse?

I just hope PK won't be another Ovechkin... Flashy as hell but useless for his team in the end. And almost untradable because of their mega huge contracts.

 

[kingdok]

I'd love it if Therrien would use Subban as suggested in this article. Great read, thanks to share.

 

[MathMan]

That was a fantastic article, and I thought that the discourse on the issues with Therrien and his system were spot-on (and they extend well past Subban).

I just hope PK won't be another Ovechkin... Flashy as hell but useless for his team in the end.

PK is not going to be like that, but it should be noted that neither is Ovechkin.

The media may love to razz a 51-goal-scorer because he's Russian and goalies can't stop the puck behind them, but that doesn't make the 51-goal scorer useless.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

PK's an interesting case and, I think, a challenge for any coach. If you let him do his own thing, sometimes this will lead to big rewards, but sometimes, as well, to big failures. Also, if he's just off doing his own thing, it will hamper overall team structure. Worse yet, his teammates might come to resent him for playing so recklessly and then everything falls apart. I think there's a time and place for it, and maybe that's the job of a good coach, if its even possible, to try and get him to discern this. But you'd think if he was capable of it, he might have a "sense of things" by now. So maybe this is just always going to be PK: Why do I keep doing that coach?! I dunno, you gotta figure it out PK.

Interestingly, of course they're very different players, but Kovalev was kind of like this; I don't think half the time his teammates knew what he was going to do. I mean, they'd get a pass they didn't expect and thus couldn't capitalize on. And, of course, when that happens, sometimes they'll blame themselves but sometimes, I'm sure, they'll blame him for not buying into the system.

To have or to have not these kinds of players, that is the question! Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the missed body checks of Subban and lazy back checks of Kovalev or... er... sorry, getting carried way.

Anyways, they're exciting to watch, yes, but do they ultimately make your club better or worse?

The bolded part is the crux of the matter.

This is all there is to it.

But I think the management believes they can get the best of both worlds. Get PK to understand when it's time to get away from the team structure and when it's time to adhere.

This article also helped me understand why MB and MT adopted that stance when first coming on board. Many of Subban's teammates wanted Subban to be disciplined by the coaches and not allowed special status. I think MT was well aware of what he needed to do to win over the room and get them to play for him. Which is probably more important than any system. But at the same time, you push the wrong buttons too often and you quickly lose the room. Ultimately, that is why I think Therrien has a short shelf life. But it does look like he's gotten even better at pushing the right buttons. Also, I hope that Lacroix is the guy to do the X and O properly for him.

If we could get a Jacques Martin as assistant coach.. this would be the best of all worlds.

 

[Baruch]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=92965997&postcount=238

And incredibly interesting article about Subban on SI:
http://www.si.com/nhl/2014/11/19/eye-test-pk-subban-montreal-canadiens-advanced-stats









While I love the team-centered philosophy of Hockey, I do think this article has many valid points.
We already know there's a lot of respect between each of the players inside the room. When Pacioretty talked about the Gordie Howe Hat-Trick of Weise against Boston, he had a wide smile, and almost tears of joy for the success of a 4th line plumber (althrough a great one!).

However, I'm ticked off by that no-mistake-or-you're-benched philosophy.
I mean, we all know Beaulieu will be a lock on our blueline for over a decade, but we still bench him at the first sign of a mistake. His Turnover that gave the Penguins their 1st goal en route to their 4-0 win against us earlier this week was just a learning mistake and yet, we all were 100% certain he would be benched during the game, and for a few games after because of it.

I honestly don't care about 1st place, as long as we get into the Playoffs. We're no hardcore favorites to win it all (Specially with a defence being composed of Gilbert-Allen-Weaver...)
Wouldn't it be possible to just put these young studs out there, offer them support instead of the fear of the mistake?
If P.K. was not P.K., I would be seriously concerned about the treatment he's getting, and what is asked of him.
We all fell in love with his play when he was qualified of being a pur sang, and the coaching staff's objective appears being making him something he's not.


Sorry for the long post, just needed to rant a little about it, and I'd like to hear about your short-term/long-term opinion of the asset management by our COACHING staff. IMO this is Therrien's biggest flaw, he's a very good coach otherwise.

 

[CanadienShark]

Lol @ the bagged milk part. I don't think I'd ever seen bagged milk until I moved to Ottawa - I refuse to buy it now just because I don't know wtf to do with the bag (since I don't have a jug to put it in). Carton user all the way.

 

[MasterDecoy]

good. so there was some locker room issues after all eh...

edit: good = good article. good read

 

[Compile]

Funny how the guy that called him out didn't last very long as a Hab...
Let PK be PK. Gill was the perfect partner because he was defense first.

Can't play two offensive dmen together and not expect them to make mistakes.
Hence why Komisarek was good with Markov because he covered for him every time Marky would push.

God damn this staff is Pejorative Slured.

 

[jpchabby]

Lol @ the bagged milk part. I don't think I'd ever seen bagged milk until I moved to Ottawa - I refuse to buy it now just because I don't know wtf to do with the bag (since I don't have a jug to put it in). Carton user all the way.

Cut the top open, and use it to put the mini carrots in it when you bring your lunch to work. Don't you wanna save the planet?

Seriously though, I think it's an interesting point the author makes on Subban, but it's mostly stuff we either already heard, or we already knew...

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

I just hope PK won't be another Ovechkin... Flashy as hell but useless for his team in the end. And almost untradable because of their mega huge contracts.

Subban and OV untradeable ? Really ?

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

I'd love it if Therrien would use Subban as suggested in this article. Great read, thanks to share.

Great, let's give up more goals.

1- This team's weakness is defense.

2- You don't help your defense if you let one player go all out no matter what.

3- This team is bailed out by Carey Price on a nightly basis, not by PK Subban who'd like to have moar stats.

4- The way PK Subban plays right now doesn't cost his team games, and he will still be able to contribute offensively by playing the system.

5- When we have 3 lines able to produce, pushing up the play taking risks with a defender too often becomes a liability as forwards can miss Subban's position coverage.

6- Subban needs to learn how to rack up the points playing a simplified game, like Gonchar.


I'm a big fan of PK but I always thought MT had the right approach with him. Tough love, higher standards for the best players. It's not that I dislike pie (spectacular plays), it's that I prefer a balanced meal (simpler team plays).

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well, Therrien may have coached all the dominant hockey right out of Subban but at least he's a better person for it.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

Well, Therrien may have coached all the dominant hockey right out of Subban but at least he's a better person for it.

You're funny. Not.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

PK's an interesting case and, I think, a challenge for any coach. If you let him do his own thing, sometimes this will lead to big rewards, but sometimes, as well, to big failures. Also, if he's just off doing his own thing, it will hamper overall team structure. Worse yet, his teammates might come to resent him for playing so recklessly and then everything falls apart. I think there's a time and place for it, and maybe that's the job of a good coach, if its even possible, to try and get him to discern this. But you'd think if he was capable of it, he might have a "sense of things" by now. So maybe this is just always going to be PK: Why do I keep doing that coach?! I dunno, you gotta figure it out PK.

Interestingly, of course they're very different players, but Kovalev was kind of like this; I don't think half the time his teammates knew what he was going to do. I mean, they'd get a pass they didn't expect and thus couldn't capitalize on. And, of course, when that happens, sometimes they'll blame themselves but sometimes, I'm sure, they'll blame him for not buying into the system.

To have or to have not these kinds of players, that is the question! Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the missed body checks of Subban and lazy back checks of Kovalev or... er... sorry, getting carried way.

Anyways, they're exciting to watch, yes, but do they ultimately make your club better or worse?

If left to do his own thing he's arguably the BEST blueliner in the league. That's what he was before MT decided to "fix" him. He looks absolutely nothing like the player he used to be right now. In 2013 he was the best blueliner in the league and that continued for about 20 games into last year when MT decided that we were a grinding team.

His teammates might "resent" him for how he plays? Dude...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The bolded part is the crux of the matter.

This is all there is to it.

But I think the management believes they can get the best of both worlds. Get PK to understand when it's time to get away from the team structure and when it's time to adhere.

This article also helped me understand why MB and MT adopted that stance when first coming on board. Many of Subban's teammates wanted Subban to be disciplined by the coaches and not allowed special status. I think MT was well aware of what he needed to do to win over the room and get them to play for him. Which is probably more important than any system. But at the same time, you push the wrong buttons too often and you quickly lose the room. Ultimately, that is why I think Therrien has a short shelf life. But it does look like he's gotten even better at pushing the right buttons. Also, I hope that Lacroix is the guy to do the X and O properly for him.

If we could get a Jacques Martin as assistant coach.. this would be the best of all worlds.

By turning our Norris winner into sludge? Yeah, I don't see how this is pressing the right buttons.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

If left to do his own thing he's arguably the BEST blueliner in the league. That's what he was before MT decided to "fix" him. He looks absolutely nothing like the player he used to be right now. In 2013 he was the best blueliner in the league and that continued for about 20 games into last year when MT decided that we were a grinding team.

His teammates might "resent" him for how he plays? Dude...

Like the game where 2 times in a row he turned it over, team got caught, and got scored on ? Wantz moar of that k thanks, bye !!1!!1

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

By turning our Norris winner into sludge? Yeah, I don't see how this is pressing the right buttons.

ANYTHING to take a jab at Therrien. This is just mind boggling to say the least. Who cares about Subban's stats. It certainly didn't matter when he signed that lucrative contract. I'll take less stats for better team performance. What's wrong with you people ?

Letting a player go all out is JUNIOR stuff. Now wonder why Washington was going nowhere with OV all over the stats sheet, and how they got to the ECF with Hunter as coach, who played OV 15 mins a night.

 

[MathMan]

Seriously though, I think it's an interesting point the author makes on Subban, but it's mostly stuff we either already heard, or we already knew...

It's still very interesting to see it pointed out by someone who is more of a whole-league observer.

 

[Deluded Puck]

ANYTHING to take a jab at Therrien. This is just mind boggling to say the least. Who cares about Subban's stats. It certainly didn't matter when he signed that lucrative contract. I'll take less stats for better team performance. What's wrong with you people ?

Letting a player go all out is JUNIOR stuff. Now wonder why Washington was going nowhere with OV all over the stats sheet, and how they got to the ECF with Hunter as coach, who played OV 15 mins a night.

They only got to the second round in 2012. Which is no better than they've done before.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

They only got to the second round in 2012. Which is no better than they've done before.

My bad then. It diminishes my argument, but weren't the Capitals a much better team with OV on a leash ? I think they were. Last year's OV -50 when he 'finally' broke Hunter's leash is what happens when you don't think team first.

 

[Deluded Puck]

My bad then. It diminishes my argument, but weren't the Capitals a much better team with OV on a leash ? I think they were. Last year's OV -50 when he 'finally' broke Hunter's leash is what happens when you don't think team first.

No they weren't.

They went from a fantastic offensive force (not just Ovi) who won a Presidents trophy, to boring defensive team who scraped in as a 7th seed.

That's not improving at all.

 

[hototogisu]

If left to do his own thing he's arguably the BEST blueliner in the league. That's what he was before MT decided to "fix" him. He looks absolutely nothing like the player he used to be right now. In 2013 he was the best blueliner in the league and that continued for about 20 games into last year when MT decided that we were a grinding team.

His teammates might "resent" him for how he plays? Dude...

Never mind the fact that, of course, he was voted the best blueliner in the league while playing under Therrien.

But I guess that was before Therrien randomly decided to beat all the talent out of him just because.

As usual when you get on these tirades, you sound completely disconnected from reality. But it's the usual spiel around here: anything we do well is because of the players, anything we do poorly is because of the coaches. Nice and simple.