GDT: [EX GM 1 and 2] Canucks @ / vs Calgary | 4:00PM / 5:00PM
- Thread starter Mr. Canucklehead
- Start date
Hopefully it was just concussion protocal and no need to rush him back into a meaningless game
2nd game was much the same as the first only with worse players for the Canucks. Choppy game broken up by a million penalties, half the game basically wasted watching guys who don't play special teams badly play special teams.
3 of Calgary's 4 goals were on the PP (one on a 5-on-3) and the 4th was off a brutal turnover by Klimovich. Generally the team worked hard and maintained structure at ES despite dressing a terrible roster where Jason Dickinson was the best forward and Dermott-Burroughs the top defensive pair. The blueline not surprisingly really struggled moving the puck.
- the 3-centre 4th line of Joshua-Dickinson-Lazar played a ton and were ... alright. No talent there and that line's job will just to play a low-event 8-10 minutes every night. No idea why Dickinson is the C on that line instead of Lazar. Dickinson - much as it would be great to get rid of him - stands out as a legitimately good skater when everyone else is an AHLer and was probably overall the most effective forward. Joshua did some nice things on the PP a couple times but would have liked to have seen him be more physical.
- Hoglander looked individually dangerous on a few occasions but wasn't overly great and took a couple bad penalties. Karlsson got a couple chances and looks like a guy who will pot 25 goals in Abbotsford but I doubt he skates well enough for the NHL and at 23 he's probably never going to. Aman is like a younger, Swedish, worse Jason Dickinson - he's a big-ish body who skates well and forechecks around the ice pretty well but is a zero-event player with very limited puck skills.
- thought Wouters played a solid game - looked better actually playing his role than being asked to be a skill C in the prospects tourney. Like Hoglander, a couple bad penalties though. Nielsen had moments but again is a guy who plays in bursts.
- Klimovich ... ugh. Had a couple nice chances and could have scored but gave away a goal on a terrible play and this is what we saw endlessly last year in Abbotsford. Puck management and decision making is awful.
- Baines missed a breakaway but was largely ineffective. Gut feeling is that he'll struggle in the AHL this year.
- Gatcomb has zero upside but I see why they like him for Abbotsford's bottom 6. Hard-working guy with a pretty big frame who plays a simple, heavy game down low.
- top defensive pair was Dermott-Burroughs and they did a good job in 22 minutes of icetime against good Calgary players. Both looked substantially better than Dekeyser in the other game. Dermott had one outstanding PP shift where he showed more than Rathbone did in the same role all night.
- Keeper had a solid game in his first game back, and luckily wasn't hurt when he took a stupid boarding play from a Calgary plug early in the game that legit could have re-broken his leg. Struggled a bit moving the puck but overall was pretty decent and skated well. Wolanin skated very well as his partner but did have a couple positional blunders.
- 3rd pair of Juulsen-Brisebois were chasing the play mostly and I wouldn't want to see their possession stats.
- goalies were not as good as in the other game. Why does Delia still have a Blackhawks mask when we signed him 3 months ago?
Need to cut a lot of guys ASAP so we see some more representative rosters with players playing their actual roles in the upcoming games.
3 of Calgary's 4 goals were on the PP (one on a 5-on-3) and the 4th was off a brutal turnover by Klimovich. Generally the team worked hard and maintained structure at ES despite dressing a terrible roster where Jason Dickinson was the best forward and Dermott-Burroughs the top defensive pair. The blueline not surprisingly really struggled moving the puck.
- the 3-centre 4th line of Joshua-Dickinson-Lazar played a ton and were ... alright. No talent there and that line's job will just to play a low-event 8-10 minutes every night. No idea why Dickinson is the C on that line instead of Lazar. Dickinson - much as it would be great to get rid of him - stands out as a legitimately good skater when everyone else is an AHLer and was probably overall the most effective forward. Joshua did some nice things on the PP a couple times but would have liked to have seen him be more physical.
- Hoglander looked individually dangerous on a few occasions but wasn't overly great and took a couple bad penalties. Karlsson got a couple chances and looks like a guy who will pot 25 goals in Abbotsford but I doubt he skates well enough for the NHL and at 23 he's probably never going to. Aman is like a younger, Swedish, worse Jason Dickinson - he's a big-ish body who skates well and forechecks around the ice pretty well but is a zero-event player with very limited puck skills.
- thought Wouters played a solid game - looked better actually playing his role than being asked to be a skill C in the prospects tourney. Like Hoglander, a couple bad penalties though. Nielsen had moments but again is a guy who plays in bursts.
- Klimovich ... ugh. Had a couple nice chances and could have scored but gave away a goal on a terrible play and this is what we saw endlessly last year in Abbotsford. Puck management and decision making is awful.
- Baines missed a breakaway but was largely ineffective. Gut feeling is that he'll struggle in the AHL this year.
- Gatcomb has zero upside but I see why they like him for Abbotsford's bottom 6. Hard-working guy with a pretty big frame who plays a simple, heavy game down low.
- top defensive pair was Dermott-Burroughs and they did a good job in 22 minutes of icetime against good Calgary players. Both looked substantially better than Dekeyser in the other game. Dermott had one outstanding PP shift where he showed more than Rathbone did in the same role all night.
- Keeper had a solid game in his first game back, and luckily wasn't hurt when he took a stupid boarding play from a Calgary plug early in the game that legit could have re-broken his leg. Struggled a bit moving the puck but overall was pretty decent and skated well. Wolanin skated very well as his partner but did have a couple positional blunders.
- 3rd pair of Juulsen-Brisebois were chasing the play mostly and I wouldn't want to see their possession stats.
- goalies were not as good as in the other game. Why does Delia still have a Blackhawks mask when we signed him 3 months ago?
Need to cut a lot of guys ASAP so we see some more representative rosters with players playing their actual roles in the upcoming games.
me2
Go ahead foot
People are reading way too much into every player, good or bad. We have all seen enough to know coaches don't care about vets in the preseason and they coast. Some fringe guys look great while going 100% against rusty gets and other scrubs then melt once the season starts.
There seems to be some debate on these boards about the performance of Rathbone in the Flames-Canucks game in Vancouver.
In my viewing, he was one of the best d-men on the ice, although granted that's a pretty low bar. I thought he moved the puck effectively and jumped into the play....could easily have had a couple of goals.
Still early in training camp but I'd be surprised if Rathbone spends another game in Abbotsford. Time to challenge him to see what he can with an extended audition in the NHL.
In my viewing, he was one of the best d-men on the ice, although granted that's a pretty low bar. I thought he moved the puck effectively and jumped into the play....could easily have had a couple of goals.
Still early in training camp but I'd be surprised if Rathbone spends another game in Abbotsford. Time to challenge him to see what he can with an extended audition in the NHL.
me2
Go ahead foot
3rd pairing LD is his spot to lose after Hughes got moved to right side. Dermott will get the 2nd pairing by default.
krutovsdonut
eeyore
- Sep 25, 2016
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garland is a something out of nothing guy. a pp is not nothing and is also too structured for him to do his thing.
Hard to get much out of second game. Overall a disorganized effort as might have been anticipated
Hoglander -was feisty but didn't get much done.
Aman - continued to cover the ice well and had some chances. Might have been the pick of the forwards
Dickenson - another who got around the ice well but struggled maintaining possession.
Joshua - -good pace but play died on his stick too often
Dermott - started bad but improved as game went on. Looks like he will need will need a good defensive partner to provide much
Wolanin - better skater than I thought he was. He'll will get further looks
Neilson - inconsistent. Did make some nice plays and looked dangerous at times. But doesn't appear to have the overall strength or speed to stay prominent in the play
Delia - looked very poor on the last goal and net coverage, in general, was mediocre
Keeper - actually made a couple of good defensive plays on 2 on 1s but did zero offensively.
Karlsson - continues to show he is strong on his stick. Made some smart plays but still finding his way in terms of playing in traffic. (or could say adjusting to rink size)
Lazar- disappointing. Did not look that good on the PK and nothing on offense
Burroughs - played aggressively but too often pulling himself out of position
Klimovich - made some dreadful turnovers and reads. However and per usual, did some dynamic things. Guy is a coaches nightmare at the moment. If someone can get this player's head right they deserve some sort of award. So frustrating seeing a player with his talent so unable to direct in the right way.
Outside of the players we know will be here (like Lazar, Dermott, etc) I'd say the people who increased their chances of getting a fuller look were Wolanin, Aman, Karlsson and Burroughs
Hoglander -was feisty but didn't get much done.
Aman - continued to cover the ice well and had some chances. Might have been the pick of the forwards
Dickenson - another who got around the ice well but struggled maintaining possession.
Joshua - -good pace but play died on his stick too often
Dermott - started bad but improved as game went on. Looks like he will need will need a good defensive partner to provide much
Wolanin - better skater than I thought he was. He'll will get further looks
Neilson - inconsistent. Did make some nice plays and looked dangerous at times. But doesn't appear to have the overall strength or speed to stay prominent in the play
Delia - looked very poor on the last goal and net coverage, in general, was mediocre
Keeper - actually made a couple of good defensive plays on 2 on 1s but did zero offensively.
Karlsson - continues to show he is strong on his stick. Made some smart plays but still finding his way in terms of playing in traffic. (or could say adjusting to rink size)
Lazar- disappointing. Did not look that good on the PK and nothing on offense
Burroughs - played aggressively but too often pulling himself out of position
Klimovich - made some dreadful turnovers and reads. However and per usual, did some dynamic things. Guy is a coaches nightmare at the moment. If someone can get this player's head right they deserve some sort of award. So frustrating seeing a player with his talent so unable to direct in the right way.
Outside of the players we know will be here (like Lazar, Dermott, etc) I'd say the people who increased their chances of getting a fuller look were Wolanin, Aman, Karlsson and Burroughs
ChilliBilly
Registered User
Just re-watched the cgy first goal because I didn’t notice myers on the ice during the lead up to the goal besides somehow being the back checker on the scorer. Man a lot of posters agendas was exposed here watching this back. Majority of posts blamed myers for the goal, yet if you watch it back, he came off the bench to back check. He really had nothing to do with the play. Idk what they expected of him when he comes off the bench as the play crosses the blue line. If anything you blame whomever came off the ice for poor timing to go for a change. Kalynuk looks even worse in the replay then he did live when I called him out in my post about the goal though. Stick isn’t in the passing lane, isn’t even on the ice. Really just doing nothing in the play to defend besides slowly gliding towards the puck carrier to cut off a rush down the boards
Now normally I’d chalk it up to well it was a line change and you couldn’t easily distinguish who was on or off the ice. Myers is massive and very noticeable any time he’s on the ice though, so imo it wasn’t just a well he got mixed up with the player he came on for.
Just your reminder to not trust the hive mind of this board and to actually watch for yourself. There was absolutely nothing myers did wrong on the play and nothing he could have done to prevent the goal. Clearly a lot of posters just see one of the whipping boys (myers/poolman/dickinson/pearson) on the ice and it’s immediately going to be their fault regardless of what actually transpired
Now normally I’d chalk it up to well it was a line change and you couldn’t easily distinguish who was on or off the ice. Myers is massive and very noticeable any time he’s on the ice though, so imo it wasn’t just a well he got mixed up with the player he came on for.
Just your reminder to not trust the hive mind of this board and to actually watch for yourself. There was absolutely nothing myers did wrong on the play and nothing he could have done to prevent the goal. Clearly a lot of posters just see one of the whipping boys (myers/poolman/dickinson/pearson) on the ice and it’s immediately going to be their fault regardless of what actually transpired
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biturbo19
Registered User
- Jul 13, 2010
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Yeah. It's not so much the "speed" with Horvat, as the acceleration that's never really come around. His ability to change direction and move quickly from a standstill is just really poor, and always will be. That induces some serious concern about how he's going to age as a player. In his prime, he's already at a point where he can't afford to "lose a step". A Horvat that loses some of that top-end "build up speed" and gets even more sluggish from a stop, is going to be a serious liability.
Yeah. Horvat has actually rounded into something resembling what he was "supposed to be". He's started to learn how to compensate for his lack of raw footspeed and still be effective. In tough minutes and matchups. Ryan Kesler, he is not...but he's moved his game in the right direction, and it's obviously a point of pride and emphasis for him to live up to that reputation defensively.
This is where the lack of explosive footspeed really shows up the most. It asks him to be relatively stationary and play positionally...but then telescope out suddenly to different points, and it just absolutely exposes his natural lack of acceleration. Once he gets rolling, his speed is fine. But the PK really just highlights how slow he is to actually get moving initially.
I'm not sure that's even really the case with Podkolzin. He's not really a "playmaker" or a "goal scorer". He's more like a ++Grinder. He's really good when it comes to obtaining and possessing the puck. In a lot of situations he's put in, that does seem to manifest as more of a "shooter", but i think that's something that was also pretty evident in Russia, whatever the stat line may have said. He's a very "direct" player. Just sort of does what the coach and system want...supports the play, forechecks, works the puck around the zone...and shoots when there's an opportunity. Pucks on net boys - or however you say that in Russian.
Hoglander was definitely disappointing in what i watched of the other game. Seemed like he picked up where he left off, in a bad way. You can see the flashes there though, where he's clearly an NHL level scoring winger...he just has a lot of holes in his game. Feels like he came in with no real expectations and pressure and played a lot better than he has since the expectations and pressure have ramped up. Trying to do too much, and beyond the scope of what he's actually capable of.
Wolanin was interesting in what i saw. He really stood out to me and covered a huge amount of ice. Skated miles. But at times, it felt like he was trying to play both Left and Right D at the same time. And occasionally forgot which.
I still really think there's something there. A guy with that sort of size who can move like that, and has generally decent positional wherewithal, could be a player for the NHL club. But much like Hoglander, kind of felt "desperate". Trying to do too much. Not just playing within his means. It's not the way to make a good impression. But given our defensive situation...definitely a guy who deserves a longer look. I'd like to see him playing with a solid vet, and see if that settles his game a bit.
Hit the post
I have your gold medal Zippy!
This is similiar to what I see critics of Myers here to some extent. He isn't overrated defensively imho. He's the *only* guy available we have on the roster to handle those minutes (anybody else would be significantly worse). Much like in the case of Myers; sure I'd like a better #4 there, but fact of the matter is, he's the best guy we currently have on the roster to take that spot (if anything, we have a shortage of top 4 guys).
Mr. Canucklehead
Kitimat Canuck
- Jan 23, 2010
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This is kind of what happens on bad teams. They put guys in positions to failure and then people think they're worse than they are. Obviously much of that comes with expectations tied to the salary. Probably happened with a dozen players here during the Benning era.
Different level of player, but you see the same thing here with Jason Dickinson. Lots of people think he's awful and he shouldn't be in the lineup. Sucks on the penalty-kill. Well no, he's a pretty good 4th line player.. he just will fail on the 3rd line. He is an okay PK guy... going against 2nd units. When you push him out on your first unit like he was last year at times, he will get caved in.
Exactly. Fans see a player struggling relative to their role and then go for the reactionary hot take that the player is just a terrible player full stop rather than the correct interpretation that this is a solid player that is being overleveraged. And then those godawful JFresh cards - which rate effectiveness in role, not overall player quality - just confirm these bad hot takes.
Jason Dickinson is a solid low-event bottom-6 winger who would be no issue if he was making $1.2 million but is being judged against his terrible contract and the horrible assessment of the previous regime that he was a #3 shutdown C.
Tyler Myers is a solid 2nd pairing defender who is being asked to play top-pairing high-leverage minutes on this blueline with zero RD depth.
Bo Horvat is a solid two-way #2C who would be best served playing on a team that had a high-leverage #3C to soak up tough matchups, but instead is being asked to be Vancouver's Patrice Bergeron and struggles with that level of defensive responsibility.
biturbo19
Registered User
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The whole Myers thing really goes back to the Benning era, and you can't get away from it. We're stuck with that player and contract. But given the state of RHD around the league at this point...maybe it's not even as terrible as it seems. I'd rather Myers @ $6M than RealGud @ $4M for longer term.
It's one of those things that was stupid from the very start. With Winnipeg where he looked decent, if you glanced even briefly at the context, he was "thriving" as the 3rd RHD on that team. Behind Byfuglien at his peak, and Trouba who is seriously underrated as a tough minutes defender. That's the kind of sheltering Myers really needs to succeed. Unfortunately we're not in a position to put him in that situation. Certainly not while paying him $6M per year. So it is what it is. The fact OEL seemed to make a Top-4D out of him, is testament to how good OEL still is, and it's basically "value added" to that OEL contract. Even if it's weird to be "value added" by making up for a guy who is overpaid by $2M per year on the cap.
Breakers
Make Mirrored Visors Legal Again
Is anybody rating Horvat as good defensively?
Tough to overrate when he’s been bad at it since he entered the league
His defensive efficiency has been bad pretty much every year of his career.
Tough to overrate when he’s been bad at it since he entered the league
His defensive efficiency has been bad pretty much every year of his career.
Casuals generally rate Horvat as really good defensively.
Spreadsheet jockeys using advanced stats without context think he's horrible defensively.
Both are equally wrong.
kanucks25
Chris Tanev #1 Fan
I don't think he's bad, the below is more accurate:
He'll come up short both when it comes to underlying numbers and eye test because he's not good enough to excel in a shutdown role (or doesn't try to - see below for more on that). But compared to the average player he's fine.
However, as some others have suggested, I don't think his lack of skating ability is what stops him for excelling in that area. Obviously being faster would help (particularly on the PK), but a lot of it has to do with mindset and tendencies; I don't see him as a player that really digs in around his defensive slot area and it's often obvious he's itching to turn around and get on the offense ASAP.
I thought we were past Benning apologist justifications
- Jan 23, 2010
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I look at Gudbranson as a PR stunt to help get Gaudreau in the door. Comparing Myers or anyone else in the NHL vs him is basically pointless as pretty much any contract in the league is good by comparison.
horvat isn't an anchor defensively but he's overmatched against skilled offensive players and should be played as a more traditional second line center to try to get exploitable matchups for the top line and to take advantage of teams 3rd and 4th lines. putting him out as a shutdown center against other teams top lines just means you don't get the best out of him offensively and you don't really accomplish anything you couldn't accomplish by putting out your third or 4th line against top opposition
biturbo19
Registered User
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I thought we were past Benning apologist justifications
I mean, it's still a terrible contract. And despite being branded as a "Benning Apologist" at times, the Myers signing was one of the things i was strongly opposed to from the very start. It was just a really bad, stupid contract to hand out. Handcuffed this team even to this day. Hated it from Day 1.
But realistically, looking around the league today...if he'd been a UFA this summer, he probably would've got exactly the same sort of contract, but longer. The market done gone stupid over large size RHD who can play minutes.
It's one of those cases where...i really didn't like the move at the time and thought it would just continue to get worse. But somehow, it's actually become "less worse" of late, based on the insane climate of the current NHL defenceman market.
People keep saying this because of the one weird video that vaguely implies something to that effect. But i don't buy it. The Blue Jackets didn't sign Gudbranson to an insane contract just to they could bid on Gaudreau. Johnny Hockey has pretty clearly put all that to bed directly, by elaborating on his reasons for signing there. Proximity to "home" and family, a weird all star game travel scenario enlightening him, and unspoken but...a place to make huge dollars with minimal spotlight and pressure (unlike Calgary).
I think that contract is entirely a barometer of what insane lengths teams will go to, when they badly need a decent "shutdown" RHD.
If that’s the case, would you still sign Horvat long term? Considering we have Miller and Pettersson as the other top two centres?
If he’s going to struggle and we have to play him in a role he’s not suited for - I think it begs the question whether or not it’s a good idea
For the record - I do think Horvat is a solid 2C in the NHL right now in his career.
Shareefruck
Registered User
When did "high leverage" become a thing? I've been hearing it everywhere these days, and I don't remember ever hearing it before.
