GDT: [EX GM 1 and 2] Canucks @ / vs Calgary | 4:00PM / 5:00PM

[Petey O]

Casuals generally rate Horvat as really good defensively.

Spreadsheet jockeys using advanced stats without context think he's horrible defensively.

Both are equally wrong.

He's average or a bit above average defensively but prone to really bad gaffes that can cost teams games.

As is any player, I guess, but much of the time those gaffes are a result off him not moving his feet. They usually happen when he is not engaged in the game, and that not only happens in the preseason.

 

[Shareefruck]

How do people feel about Horvat vs. Pettersson defensively?

I don't know what the numbers show (or if they're able to determine such a thing given vastly different roles), and I think it's a bit skewed by that stretch of awful Pettersson, but at least in terms of optics, I've always viewed Pettersson as the far superior defensive player (at the very least, I see way more of that potential/capability), and assumed that we just don't use him that way because we don't want to waste his offensive potential. I'm pretty confident that he's a better penalty killer, at least (though I guess that isn't saying much). I keep hearing "Horvat isn't (that) good defensively, but he's the best we've got," even from posters I respect and think knows hockey better than me, however.

Maybe it's one of those things where people think that even though he looks better defensively, he would get eaten alive in Horvat's role simply due to his lack of muscle?

 

[kanucks25]

How do people feel about Horvat vs. Pettersson defensively? I don't know what the numbers show (or if they're able to determine such a thing given vastly different roles), and I think it's a bit skewed by that stretch of awful Pettersson, but at least in terms of optics, I've always viewed Pettersson as the far superior defensive player (at the very least, I see way more of that potential/capability), and assumed that we just don't use him that way because we don't want to waste his offensive potential. I'm pretty confident that he's a superior penalty killer, at least (though I guess that isn't saying much). I keep hearing "Horvat isn't good defensively, but he's the best we've got," however.

Maybe it's one of those things where he isn't actually there yet, but clearly will be when he builds some strength?

As far as I know Pettersson has good underlying numbers defensively, at least outside of that horrid stretch last season.

Eye test wise I kind of see them the same in terms of effectiveness: good defensively but not ideal in a shutdown role. Different strengths and weaknesses though; Pettersson obviously is lacking a bit physically but makes up for it with his skill and IQ. Perhaps when he grows into his man body he'll be more of an all around force.

 

[Shareefruck]

As far as I know Pettersson has good underlying numbers defensively, at least outside of that horrid stretch last season.

Eye test wise I kind of see them the same in terms of effectiveness: good defensively but not ideal in a shutdown role. Different strengths and weaknesses though; Pettersson obviously is lacking a bit physically but makes up for it with his skill and IQ. Perhaps when he grows into his man body he'll be more of an all around force.

I guess I can see that. Personally, in defensive/critical situations, I still find myself far more comfortable when a non-slumping Pettersson is out there defending, and nervous/fearing the worst/noticing poor defensive play when Horvat is.

I feel like I might be a bit hockey-sense/IQ biased in general, though.

 

[orcatown]

Agree with the comments that point out the poorness of Horvat's first step. I think Horvat would admit to that himself. Once he is up to speed he can bull rush ok and is solid enough on his skates to protect the puck and make plays.

Defensively, I think both the stats and your own eye balls point out some important deficiencies.

Defense really starts in the offensive zone and not just inside your blue line. Often it's just as important to break up plays at the other teams blue line and through the neutral zone as it is your end. Horvat is simply not quick enough in transition to provide much of this. You rarely see him tracking down players coming out of their zone or through mid-ice. In contrast, you see a player like Pettersson showing an increasing ability to get in passing lanes on the back check and knocking down passes or breaking up plays. Last year Motte was simply excellent at this and Lammikko wasn't bad. Back in the day, Kesler was an outstanding in defensive transition (Selke like in fact). You watch Horvat and I don't see how you can maintain he is.

And even in his zone, Horvat has significant problems. Tends to take a zonal defensive approach. Basically stays in the mid ice or slot area trying to prevent passes to that area. However, the better defensive players want to get pressure on the puck. You lay back in some kind of zone position, you give very talented players the chance to make plays. The best defensive players are those that are not only capable of getting pressure on the puck but also can get opponents off the puck and, either through their ability to pack the puck or move it quickly, to get the play going the other way. Horvat simply does not consistently apply the type of pressure needed to this. Players like Kesler were and are exceptional at this.

Nor is Horvat is not that effective at shot blocking. Does get in lanes but his timing isn't good enough for him to use his pads well. Ends up getting puck in places were you get injured and also end up deflecting puck towards your own net. One problem is that Horvat goes down and he lacks the agility to quickly get up and back in the play.

Like I said, the stats (particularly his plus/minus - about the worst in the League over his time in the NHL) are poor and, IMO, are a result of his poor back checking, mediocre defensive transition play and his inability to apply enough pressure on the puck in his end. And most of this is consequences of his clunky skating - especially when he tries to quick pivot.

 

[alternate]

Horvat?? What happened to Horvath?

 

[Shareefruck]

Casuals generally rate Horvat as really good defensively.

Spreadsheet jockeys using advanced stats without context think he's horrible defensively.

Both are equally wrong.

I think there's a third option here. Posters who correctly identified Horvat as horrible defensively in the past sometimes still think he's horrible because they haven't paid enough attention to his modest improvement in that area in recent years, or just continue to say it out of habit.

As someone who kind of stopped watching during a lot of the later Benning years, I've found myself occasionally falling into that trap as well. Especially since his holes in that area are still so.... visible, glaring, and costly, while his improvements are pretty subtle. That combined with his role making him look worse....... I think it's a somewhat understandable misconception.

 

[kanucks25]

I guess I can see that. Personally, in defensive/critical situations, I still find myself far more comfortable when a non-slumping Pettersson is out there defending, and nervous/fearing the worst/noticing poor defensive play when Horvat is.

I feel like I might be a bit hockey-sense/IQ biased in general, though.

I agree with that, definitely feel better with Pettersson on the ice but that's likely just because he's simply a better all around player. Really the only thing he doesn't have is Horvat's occasional power forward play and the faceoffs.

Whenever Pettersson is skating and using his stick and skill to defend he's very good. When he forgets to use his feet and stick he tries to defend with his arms/hands and it ends up looking like a timid boy trying to get his toy back from his older brother.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

How do people feel about Horvat vs. Pettersson defensively?

I don't know what the numbers show (or if they're able to determine such a thing given vastly different roles), and I think it's a bit skewed by that stretch of awful Pettersson, but at least in terms of optics, I've always viewed Pettersson as the far superior defensive player (at the very least, I see way more of that potential/capability), and assumed that we just don't use him that way because we don't want to waste his offensive potential. I'm pretty confident that he's a better penalty killer, at least (though I guess that isn't saying much). I keep hearing "Horvat isn't (that) good defensively, but he's the best we've got," even from posters I respect and think knows hockey better than me, however.

Maybe it's one of those things where people think that even though he looks better defensively, he would get eaten alive in Horvat's role simply due to his lack of muscle?

i don't think there's a huge difference in net defensive effectiveness between the two, but i do think it's funny that if you were to make the totally inappropriate comparison between horvat/petey and zetterberg/datsyuk (just defensively), the casual fan and/or eastern seaboard hockey analyst will say horvat is much closer to zetterberg than petey is to datsyuk. but in fact, petey is actually closer to datsyuk than horvat is to zetts.

 

[Nucker101]

I think Bo is above average defensively but not a true shutdown center. He’s also terrible on the PK, it’s actually a bit amazing how ineffective he is at it, he just puck watches, I think he could be better at it if he had better coaching in the past but he was stuck with WD and Green.

 

[logan5]

I think Bo is above average defensively but not a true shutdown center. He’s also terrible on the PK, it’s actually a bit amazing how ineffective he is at it, he just puck watches, I think he could be better at it if he had better coaching in the past but he was stuck with WD and Green.

There were different coaches running the PK weren't there?

 

[Nucker101]

There were different coaches running the PK weren't there?

Baumer under Green since day one I believe. I forgot who did under WD

 

[rypper]

Baumer under Green since day one I believe. I forgot who did under WD

It was either Lidster, Pearn, Guluzten, or Jarvis. They were with Desjardins but I can't recall who did what.

 

[Tact]

I mean you learn how to PK even when you’re young playing hockey. These guys are NHL’ers - kind of hard to blame NHL coaches if someone isn’t good at the PK.

 

[biturbo19]

How do people feel about Horvat vs. Pettersson defensively?

I don't know what the numbers show (or if they're able to determine such a thing given vastly different roles), and I think it's a bit skewed by that stretch of awful Pettersson, but at least in terms of optics, I've always viewed Pettersson as the far superior defensive player (at the very least, I see way more of that potential/capability), and assumed that we just don't use him that way because we don't want to waste his offensive potential. I'm pretty confident that he's a better penalty killer, at least (though I guess that isn't saying much). I keep hearing "Horvat isn't (that) good defensively, but he's the best we've got," even from posters I respect and think knows hockey better than me, however.

Maybe it's one of those things where people think that even though he looks better defensively, he would get eaten alive in Horvat's role simply due to his lack of muscle?

I'd say they're somewhat equivalent defensively, but in very different ways. Horvat definitely works a lot harder at it, but Pettersson when he's playing well, makes up a lot of the difference with his anticipation and reach. He can control a bigger area with his stick, and seems to have a better natural sense of positioning to maximize that.

I think an overlooked component of why Horvat is preferred in that role over Pettersson though, is the faceoff aspect. With Pettersson, more often than not, he's starting that defensive zone shift without the puck off a lost faceoff, where he's going to spend more time defending and chasing the play. Whereas with Horvat, more often than not, his line is going to be starting that defensive zone deployment with the puck off a won faceoff. When neither of them is a particularly Selke caliber center defensively, i think that kind of thing makes a difference.

I think Bo is above average defensively but not a true shutdown center. He’s also terrible on the PK, it’s actually a bit amazing how ineffective he is at it, he just puck watches, I think he could be better at it if he had better coaching in the past but he was stuck with WD and Green.

I'm sure it hasn't helped, having inept coaching for most of his NHL career (and being thrown into that sort of role anyway, due to his reputation in Jrs), but i really don't think "coaching" is the biggest problem with Horvat defensively (particularly on the PK). It's pretty apparent that his lack of initial burst when it comes to footspeed, is the biggest limiting factor for him. It makes it look like he's just "puck watching", but it really seems to be more that he's learned to "pick his spots" to pressure, because most of the time he simply doesn't have the acceleration to get there in time to make a play. So it's a sort of self-preservation coping method, trying not to draw himself out of position where he doesn't have the acceleration to get there, or to recover if he doesn't take the puck away.

 

[Breakers]

Miller played tougher minutes than Horvat last season

True story

 

[andora]

Casuals generally rate Horvat as really good defensively.

Spreadsheet jockeys using advanced stats without context think he's horrible defensively.

Both are equally wrong.

Pretty much.. he slots in right in the middle

 

[pitseleh]

Casuals generally rate Horvat as really good defensively.

Spreadsheet jockeys using advanced stats without context think he's horrible defensively.

Both are equally wrong.

I posted a link to deeper dive in the analytics thread a while ago, but the interesting thing about Horvat is that he generates solid defensive metrics when playing against elite competition, but the team’s offence falls off of a cliff.

Supports the idea that his in-zone coverage is fine but he doesn’t have the two-way chops to drive play when saddled with tough minutes.

On the flipside, Garland and Podkolzin were the team’s two best players at driving play when playing tough minutes, so I am guessing that the team is expecting those two to complement Horvat and give him the help he needs.