Management Eugene Melnyk - Lawsuits, rants and more... Part 5.6 (YOUS)

[SensHulk]

That poll reminds of Doug Judy and Ray Holt negotiating over what class of hotel, room service allowance and minibar privileges Judy would get to facilitate a sting operation.

The reality is, players are motivated by dollars and term. Everything else is a "nice to get but not a deal breaker" kind of thing and any agent who says otherwise is full of shit.

Like are we actually supposed to believe that a player and agent could get an offer from a team like Ottawa for $20 million/5 years and an offer from another team for $16 million/4 years and the agent would say to the player "it's a good offer but I've heard the Senators tend to stay in the cheaper 5* hotels so I think we should pass"???

That whole poll and quote was so f***ing cringe and detached from reality. I honestly don't even see it as a point of interest as a fan, I just think it's totally distasteful for them to be talking about the perks of a job that pays people millions per year. Even Methot isn't stupid enough to complain about the money he made on their podcast because he knows the average joe doesn't vibe with that.

Nah that shit does matter. Go listen to Mark Stone on the Methot and Wally podcast and how he raves about the scene in Vegas. He literally says Ottawa needs a downtown arena.

And of course ‘perks’ matter when the money being offered is more or less the same. Don’t think the article is saying players will leave money on table because of perks but nevertheless…

 

[DrEasy]

Nah that shit does matter. Go listen to Mark Stone on the Methot and Wally podcast and how he raves about the scene in Vegas. He literally says Ottawa needs a downtown arena.

And of course ‘perks’ matter when the money being offered is more or less the same. Don’t think the article is saying players will leave money on table because of perks but nevertheless…

Absolutely. Also on the Wally and Methot podcast, Zibby talked about the amenities they have in NY. Yes, these things matter. Same reason why high tech companies used to spend so much on catering, nice offices, etc. I dream of what Tobi Lutke would do if he owned the Sens.

Make the place more attractive to free agents and guess what, not only you might be able to get the good ones (instead of the desperate ones), you might even get them at a discount that more than pays for the investment you made.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Well, Ottawa doesn’t have any of that. But, it is a beautiful, safe, and lovely Canadian city and the truth is that does speak to a lot of players as well, especially as they get a bit older.

The Sens are never going to able to get tickets to chic restaurants and broadway shows that Zib likes, and they aren’t ever going to have a Vegas downtown atmosphere no matter where the arena is located.

But it’s a great town, with smart open minded people, that loves hockey, and for lots of players, being smaller town famous in a hockey crazed city, in a hockey crazed country, is exactly where they want to be hockey players.

You can catch a broadway show in the summer if that’s your fancy, but our young stars are singing here long term, it can’t be just the big city perks.

As an aside, Methot mentioned that most of the most important perks are part of the CBA, and all teams have them in pretty much the same way.

 

[SensHulk]

Well, Ottawa doesn’t have any of that. But, it is a beautiful, safe, and lovely Canadian city and the truth is that does speak to a lot of players as well, especially as they get a bit older.

The Sens are never going to able to get tickets to chic restaurants and broadway shows that Zib likes, and they aren’t ever going to have a Vegas downtown atmosphere no matter where the arena is located.

But it’s a great town, with smart open minded people, that loves hockey, and for lots of players, being smaller town famous in a hockey crazed city, in a hockey crazed country, is exactly where they want to be hockey players.

You can catch a broadway show in the summer if that’s your fancy, but our young stars are singing here long term, it can’t be just the big city perks.

As an aside, Methot mentioned that most of the most important perks are part of the CBA, and all teams have them in pretty much the same way.

The point is Ottawa *can* have a bit more flair when it comes to players wanting to be here and the first step is to move downtown.

no one is disputing ottawa being a great city and having its own charm that’s different form NYC, Vegas. But that’s not the point, we’re not doing the little things that could sway a player. And when the perks with how the CBA is setup are the same, these nuances matter even more.

And we’re not doing anything to change it. That’s why we’re losers in free agency and an afterthought for agents. It’s not rocket science why…

 

[JD1]

To @Ice-Tray point...yes, most of the important perks are in the cba, including hotels

And on a downtown arena...the math on a downtown arena doesn't add up if it is privately financed. It's not an issue of Melnyk not being able to afford it, it's an issue of math not working out. So to all you guys that say we need a downtown arena, I hope with your next breath you're saying you're good with public dollars subsidizing it. We're not getting an arena without that subsidy. You can sit on one side or the other. Where you can't sit is wanting the arena but being adamant that governments don't kick in public money.

 

[GCK]

To @Ice-Tray point...yes, most of the important perks are in the cba, including hotels

And on a downtown arena...the math on a downtown arena doesn't add up if it is privately financed. It's not an issue of Melnyk not being able to afford it, it's an issue of math not working out. So to all you guys that say we need a downtown arena, I hope with your next breath you're saying you're good with public dollars subsidizing it. We're not getting an arena without that subsidy. You can sit on one side or the other. Where you can't sit is wanting the arena but being adamant that governments don't kick in public money.

This is 100% correct, and it’s why refurbishment of CTC needs to be on the table.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I think the main selling point is the facilities. The Sens have better facilities than many other teams do. I remember Bobby Ryan being so happy that the team had cold tubes let alone hot tubes because in Anaheim they had buckets with ice water to sit in.

Enjoyed the Tubes, back in the day, they can be easily found on YouTube

 

[BankStreetParade]

Absolutely. Also on the Wally and Methot podcast, Zibby talked about the amenities they have in NY. Yes, these things matter. Same reason why high tech companies used to spend so much on catering, nice offices, etc. I dream of what Tobi Lutke would do if he owned the Sens.

Make the place more attractive to free agents and guess what, not only you might be able to get the good ones (instead of the desperate ones), you might even get them at a discount that more than pays for the investment you made.

Well I'm glad Mika ended up playing for one of the most valuable sports franchises in the world, in one of the largest sports markets in the world, in the busiest arena in the world so he could get those posh amenities. That reality doesn't exist for 25+ of the 32 teams in the league.

"Make the place more attractive to free agents" is such a pile of bullshit. With what money? With what facilities? With what size of market? Some of you guys live in a fantasy world where you envision all the problems are related to one person and if only we could get rid of him then all of our problems would be magically solved!

 

[SensHulk]

Well I'm glad Mika ended up playing for one of the most valuable sports franchises in the world, in one of the largest sports markets in the world, in the busiest arena in the world so he could get those posh amenities. That reality doesn't exist for 25+ of the 32 teams in the league.

"Make the place more attractive to free agents" is such a pile of bullshit. With what money? With what facilities? With what size of market? Some of you guys live in a fantasy world where you envision all the problems are related to one person and if only we could get rid of him then all of our problems would be magically solved!

ottawa is literally being beaten by one other place as the top place for free agents to avoid, and that’s because they don’t know where the coyotes will end up. And there is literally one person who came in and screwed things when we had a path to Downtown and he’s getting countersued for however many billions of dollars lol

 

[SensHulk]

To @Ice-Tray point...yes, most of the important perks are in the cba, including hotels

And on a downtown arena...the math on a downtown arena doesn't add up if it is privately financed. It's not an issue of Melnyk not being able to afford it, it's an issue of math not working out. So to all you guys that say we need a downtown arena, I hope with your next breath you're saying you're good with public dollars subsidizing it. We're not getting an arena without that subsidy. You can sit on one side or the other. Where you can't sit is wanting the arena but being adamant that governments don't kick in public money.

what does have to do with the other? Originally there was a path to downtown and it supposedly did not involve public funds. No one is talking about how to get there, it’s just about not being there at all and being stuck in Kanata as a huge problem.

 

[SensHulk]

ottawa is literally being beaten by one other place as the top place for free agents to avoid, and that’s because they don’t know where the coyotes will end up. And there is literally one person who came in and screwed things when we had a path to Downtown and he’s getting countersued for however many billions of dollars

you asked a bunch of questions there at the end which could easily be solved with a new ownership lol

 

[GCK]

what does have to do with the other? Originally there was a path to downtown and it supposedly did not involve public funds. No one is talking about how to get there, it’s just about not being there at all and being stuck in Kanata as a huge problem.

Melnyk was not the sole reason that Rendezvous-vous Lebreton failed. If Ruddy had just waited 2 years before butt f***ing Melnyk the building would have started.

 

[DaveMatthew]

To @Ice-Tray point...yes, most of the important perks are in the cba, including hotels

And on a downtown arena...the math on a downtown arena doesn't add up if it is privately financed. It's not an issue of Melnyk not being able to afford it, it's an issue of math not working out. So to all you guys that say we need a downtown arena, I hope with your next breath you're saying you're good with public dollars subsidizing it. We're not getting an arena without that subsidy. You can sit on one side or the other. Where you can't sit is wanting the arena but being adamant that governments don't kick in public money.

Refurbished or not, the Senators will have no long-term future here if they stay in Kanata.

I won't get into the blame game, but at the end of the day, Gary Bettman, Eugene Melnyk, Jim Watson, the NCC, and whoever else, will need to figure out how to make it happen.

Otherwise, the team moving is inevitable.

And hey, those parties may be fine with moving the team. But I can almost guarantee you that in 10-15 years, the Senators won't be playing in Kanata. We'll just wait to see if they're playing downtown or in Houston.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Refurbished or not, the Senators will have no long-term future here if they stay in Kanata.

I won't get into the blame game, but at the end of the day, Gary Bettman, Eugene Melnyk, Jim Watson, the NCC, and whoever else, will need to figure out how to make it happen.

Otherwise, the team moving is inevitable.

And hey, those parties may be fine with moving the team. But I can almost guarantee you that in 10-15 years, the Senators won't be playing in Kanata. We'll just wait to see if they're playing downtown or in Houston.

I agree. Planning to stay there for the long haul and putting significant funds in to it would be a mistake.

 

[BankStreetParade]

ottawa is literally being beaten by one other place as the top place for free agents to avoid, and that’s because they don’t know where the coyotes will end up. And there is literally one person who came in and screwed things when we had a path to Downtown and he’s getting countersued for however many billions of dollars lol

There's always going to be teams at the bottom of a ranking of anything. Ottawa has two major checks against it, taxes and weather, which have nothing to do with ownership and are arguably two of three most important things to players deciding where they'll sign - along with a team's competitiveness.

This idea that amenities make such a huge difference is a pile of shit. Money and term speak to players the loudest and this whole poll is grossly tone-deaf and insulting on many levels to the average fan.

Ottawa never has been and never will be a beacon for top free agents and anyone who thinks upgrading our amenities will suddenly attract more quality free agents is f***ing kidding themselves.

Ask yourself this: if an employee went to their employer and said "hey I got an offer from company x and they're offering me the same money as here but with perks like free lunch, access to a games room and beer hall fridays" and the employer said "we can't offer the same amenities but we'll offer you a 20%+ salary increase" those employees would say no thanks and move on?

 

[bert]

There's always going to be teams at the bottom of a ranking of anything. Ottawa has two major checks against it, taxes and weather, which have nothing to do with ownership and are arguably two of three most important things to players deciding where they'll sign - along with a team's competitiveness.

This idea that amenities make such a huge difference is a pile of shit. Money and term speak to players the loudest and this whole poll is grossly tone-deaf and insulting on many levels to the average fan.

Ottawa never has been and never will be a beacon for top free agents and anyone who thinks upgrading our amenities will suddenly attract more quality free agents is f***ing kidding themselves.

Ask yourself this: if an employee went to their employer and said "hey I got an offer from company x and they're offering me the same money as here but with perks like free lunch, access to a games room and beer hall fridays" and the employer said "we can't offer the same amenities but we'll offer you a 20%+ salary increase" those employees would say no thanks and move on?

You arent wrong, however with the salary cap there is only so much money to go around. Plus these guys have egos and want to be the best and there is only 32 destinations. Hockey players are also more loyal than most athletes (not much competition there) if a team drafts them developes them and treats them right they are more inclined to stick around than athletes in the 3 other major sports in north america. It would be very interesting to see this market with stable ownership and a downtown arena. I think the building would be full. The second generation of sens fans who grew up with this team are in prime earning capabilities now. I know if the team was DT id have seasons, even with Melnyk around despite how much I dislike him. To an extent he is spending now, he has 4 more contracts to go to convince me he is fully commited. (Norris, Stuetzle, Formenton and Zub). Then the sens core would all be signed long term, there would be no real excuse from the fan base to not go to the games because of Melnyks financial commitments.

 

[SensHulk]

Melnyk was not the sole reason that Rendezvous-vous Lebreton failed. If Ruddy had just waited 2 years before butt f***ing Melnyk the building would have started.

yeah that’s fair. I don’t get the sense that Melnyk is even trying to move downtown (I really hope he is…but I can only go by what he publicly says and none of it gives me confidence we’re relocating outside of Kanata)

 

[SensHulk]

Status Quo won’t work. For all the questions about how we can offer more salary over perks, how has that working out for us? We get to overpay MDZ and Dadanov.

edit: we actually have the taxes working against us too. With salary cap implementation, I actually think it’s imperative for the sens to focus on the ‘perks’ of being in Ottawa more so than just offering more terms and $$

 

[GCK]

yeah that’s fair. I don’t get the sense that Melnyk is even trying to move downtown (I really hope he is…but I can only go by what he publicly says and none of it gives me confidence we’re relocating outside of Kanata)

I doubt Melnyk moves downtown but then I don’t think he will be the owner much longer. In my opinion he will sell within 5 years

 

[BankStreetParade]

You arent wrong, however with the salary cap there is only so much money to go around. Plus these guys have egos and want to be the best and there is only 32 destinations. Hockey players are also more loyal than most athletes (not much competition there) if a team drafts them developes them and treats them right they are more inclined to stick around than athletes in the 3 other major sports in north america. It would be very interesting to see this market with stable ownership and a downtown arena. I think the building would be full. The second generation of sens fans who grew up with this team are in prime earning capabilities now. I know if the team was DT id have seasons, even with Melnyk around despite how much I dislike him. To an extent he is spending now, he has 4 more contracts to go to convince me he is fully commited. (Norris, Stuetzle, Formenton and Zub). Then the sens core would all be signed long term, there would be no real excuse from the fan base to not go to the games because of Melnyks financial commitments.

Well, I mean are hockey players more loyal or do trades (and roster cuts) happen far more frequently in the other sports? It's hard to do a 1-to-1 comparison like that when players in the NFL can be cut, when players in the NBA can be included in trades simply to make the dollars work and when players in the MLB have relatively short careers except for the big stars.

Also, the building being full doesn't really mean much. We've had full buildings before and convincing UFAs to sign in Ottawa - during their absolute best years - was like pulling teeth. Would a downtown arena make a big difference? I don't know. Are potential free agent signees looking to live downtown? Especially downtown Ottawa? I'd honestly be really surprised if that played any part in the consideration of signing here.

The reality is, again, UFAs are looking for maximum dollars and terms. Once you get similar offers, I'm sure they look at things like taxes, weather, competitiveness of the team and potential role. If it's still a tie for some reason between multiple competing offers, then they probably look at how many buds they have playing in those markets. After all that, maybe they consider amenities. Maybe.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The point is Ottawa *can* have a bit more flair when it comes to players wanting to be here and the first step is to move downtown.

no one is disputing ottawa being a great city and having its own charm that’s different form NYC, Vegas. But that’s not the point, we’re not doing the little things that could sway a player. And when the perks with how the CBA is setup are the same, these nuances matter even more.

And we’re not doing anything to change it. That’s why we’re losers in free agency and an afterthought for agents. It’s not rocket science why…

We are in some respects. As per Methot again, we have a world class training and support staff. Our staff was used for team Canada during the last WC.

These are the kinds of things that also matter.

We are losers in FA mostly because we have been in tear down mode, and then the start of a rebuild. That is not exciting for star UFAs wanting to win now.

As we get better we’ll become more attractive.

 

[Sweatred]

We are losers in FA mostly because we have been in tear down mode, and then the start of a rebuild. That is not exciting for star UFAs wanting to win now.

As we get better we’ll become more attractive.

There has never been a time in our history where the strength of our roster greatly increased our chances of attracting UFA’s

Our needle moves between 0-2 out of 10 based on the strength of our roster. We were at 0-1 and it’s moving toward 1-2.

What are our top signings over 20+ years including some SC rosters ? 1 year to Hasek ? Todd White ? Clarke M ? 33? year old Gonchar ? Joe Corvo ?

That’s as good as it got in the best of times.

 

[Ice-Tray]

There has never been a time in our history where the strength of our roster greatly increased our chances of getting UFA’s

Our needle moves between 0-2 out of ten based on the strength of our roster.

What are our top signings over 20+ years including some SC rosters ? 1 year to Hasek ? Todd White ? Clarke M ? 35 year old Gonchar ? Joe Corvo ?

That’s as good as it got in the best of times.

Haha, yes there has been a time. The problem was the inability of our GMs at the time to pay for the top talent.

Money talks, and there were several years where we were one of the best teams in the league, and arguably the best place to go to contend for a cup.

The problem was everyone knew that we were never going to compete contract wise with other teams, and we never did.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Double trouble!

 

[JD1]

yeah that’s fair. I don’t get the sense that Melnyk is even trying to move downtown (I really hope he is…but I can only go by what he publicly says and none of it gives me confidence we’re relocating outside of Kanata)

I think as long as Jimmy is in the game there's little point in Melnyk positioning for it.