Player Discussion Ethan Bear: It's a Bear Market

CycloneSweep

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I don't like Russell.

My point was and still is, Russell for 3 years straight has allowed goals at the LOWEST rate on the team, a decent amount below his xGA rate. It's a trend. So either he is outrageously lucky for 3 years straight (bullshit), his goalies just play better for him (bullshit) or it shoes that advanced stats still have a long way to come.

Hockey is way more nuanced than just shots, Corsi and scoring chances. If it wasn't, Montreal would be the best team in the league.

If you can waive away one players performance as luck, and another as "the stats don't account for that level of skill" then the stats are still heavily flawed.

On topic of Bear. He has the potential to be a very good player if he develops consistency. However he doesn't seem to have the actual offensive ability or the athleticism to do it long term.
 

Forgot About Drai

Dr Drai the Second
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I think the player has upside. Last season I was comparing him generously to a young Giordano. This season I can't make that comparison.

Fair but seems like you love Broberg, do you believe in him any less because of his regression this year or do you chalk it up to a non-linear development path?

The potential you saw is still there. I see it multiple times a game when he makes beautiful outlet passes, or denies the blue line. Sure he makes mistakes and he has good games and bad games but the potential didnt go anywhere.
 

Little Fury

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I don't like Russell.

My point was and still is, Russell for 3 years straight has allowed goals at the LOWEST rate on the team, a decent amount below his xGA rate. It's a trend. So either he is outrageously lucky for 3 years straight (bullshit), his goalies just play better for him (bullshit) or it shoes that advanced stats still have a long way to come.

It would be extremely easy to test the hypothesis that Kris Russell does something special to prevent goals while haemorrhaging shots by tracking all the shots against when he's on the ice and their locations, who is shooting (does the fact he plays against plugs make his life easier?) etc. Regardless pointing at a flaw in a stat that everyone agrees is imperfect does very little to advance the actual understanding of the game and improve our ability to evaluate players. If you want better stats, make better stats, don't say "this stat is flawed, here's a narrative instead!"
 
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McCombo

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Oh my god, man, you have just posted a quote from god knows where that 100% confirms what people have been trying to tell you for days.

You're using unit derived metrics to make wild assertions about individual players under the context of being factual. That is not "objective analysis", and nothing you say can ever make it so.

Spurgeon is a great player, but the fact that you STILL ignore multiple variables when making player assessment only hurts the credibility of the metrics.
The quote was from person whose model is one of my tools to make money from NHL games. If you can create better one, I am willing to pay for it.
 

Ol' Jase

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The quote was from person whose model is one of my tools to make money from NHL games. If you can create better one, I am willing to pay for it.

So, let me guess, the “model” that you use is based around team results. Unless you’re betting on individual performances, it’s the team based results that you are referring to.

Can you see how advanced stats are far more predictive of team results and analysis than individual results and analysis?

This is absolutely the biggest problem with advanced stats analysis. The idea that team performance can somehow be properly be extrapolated to individual results using exactly the same metrics is not a proper analysis method.
 
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McCombo

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So, let me guess, the “model” that you use is based around team results. Unless you’re betting on individual performances, it’s the team based results that you are referring to.

Can you see how advanced stats are far more predictive of team results and analysis than individual results and analysis?

This is absolutely the biggest problem with advanced stats analysis. The idea that team performance can somehow be properly be extrapolated to individual results using exactly the same metrics is not a proper analysis method.
No it is based on individual performances. Game Score numbers.

Edit. I guess sites like Moneypuck have team based models, but it is pretty useless when it doesn't take things like injuries into considerations, because it just based on how the team has played. But it is pretty clear that Oilers with McDavid have higher chance to win certain game than without him.
 

CycloneSweep

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It would be extremely easy to test the hypothesis that Kris Russell does something special to prevent goals while haemorrhaging shots by tracking all the shots against when he's on the ice and their locations, who is shooting (does the fact he plays against plugs make his life easier?) etc. Regardless pointing at a flaw in a stat that everyone agrees is imperfect does very little to advance the actual understanding of the game and improve our ability to evaluate players. If you want better stats, make better stats, don't say "this stat is flawed, here's a narrative instead!"
My point is when a player goes against the stats, it's absolutely ridiculous to just blame it on luck rather than acknowledge it as an outlier.

A player with good advanced stats isn't necessarily a good player and a player with bad isn't necessarily bad.

You can't hand waive away things that break the advanced stat narrative as purely luck as it's kind of ridiculous
 

Forgot About Drai

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My point is when a player goes against the stats, it's absolutely ridiculous to just blame it on luck rather than acknowledge it as an outlier.

A player with good advanced stats isn't necessarily a good player and a player with bad isn't necessarily bad.

You can't hand waive away things that break the advanced stat narrative as purely luck as it's kind of ridiculous

Its true, but its another tool in the toolbox and should not be thrown away.

For example: A lot of people on this board dont like Jones, but his analytics are great. Does this mean hes a great player or is projecting to be a great player? Not necessarily, but because his analytics are really good, im willing to give him more looks and time to develop.
 

Ol' Jase

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No it is based on individual performances. Game Score numbers.

Edit. I guess sites like Moneypuck have team based models, but it is pretty useless when it doesn't take things like injuries into considerations, because it just based on how the team has played. But it is pretty clear that Oilers with McDavid have higher chance to win certain game than without him.

:facepalm:

The metrics measured are unit based metrics assigned to individuals with an equal weight. They are not "individual performance metrics".

This is just basic, basic stuff here.
 
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McCombo

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:facepalm:

The metrics measured are unit based metrics assigned to individuals with an equal weight. They are not "individual performance metrics".

This is just basic, basic stuff here.
Okay, then I misunderstood. We can have a conversation in Finnish too. Would be easier for me.
 

CycloneSweep

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Its true, but its another tool in the toolbox and should not be thrown away.

For example: A lot of people on this board dont like Jones, but his analytics are great. Does this mean hes a great player or is projecting to be a great player? Not necessarily, but because his analytics are really good, im willing to give him more looks and time to develop.
I agree, I don't think it should be thrown away. But I feel like if you use advanced stats you can't solely use them, and if a player has good numbers but is Infact not playing well, you need to be able to acknowledge that as something the numbers aren't account for and not just randomness, cause that just doesn't make sense.

Jones has much improved since the start of the year, same with Bear. Neither should be top 4 guys right now however.
 
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McCombo

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I agree, I don't think it should be thrown away. But I feel like if you use advanced stats you can't solely use them, and if a player has good numbers but is Infact not playing well, you need to be able to acknowledge that as something the numbers aren't account for and not just randomness, cause that just doesn't make sense.

Jones has much improved since the start of the year, same with Bear. Neither should be top 4 guys right now however.
1st post I pretty much agree with you. But neither should Russell or Larsson. And that is a big obstacle for this team to be actual contender, way too many 3rd pairing guys.
 

CycloneSweep

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Okay, then I misunderstood. We can have a conversation in Finnish too. Would be easier for me.
The point here, I'll try and out it simple.

Advanced stats are effected by 10 players on the ice at a time, and are then applied to a player equally.

A player could allow tons of of high danger chances, but as far as I've seen, if it's a right side d, and the guy is always breaking in on the left, it still dings that right side d.

There are some analytics groups that have some stats that focus on the individual player and their mistakes but they aren't the most reliable as the amount of time required to focus on individual players is astronomical.
 

CycloneSweep

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1st post I pretty much agree with you. But neither should Russell or Larsson. And that is a big obstacle for this team to be actual contender, way too many 3rd pairing guys.
I will heavily disagree on Larsson. Larsson has been very good this year.
Of course the offensive numbers aren't there but he is used in a shutdown role and is doing it very successfully..

One thing actual players have mention and a guy like Strudwick who has played has said is, you need guys like Larsson who are hard to play against. The hard hitting, hard to play against guys. Sure they may allow chances and stuff but when the chance comes the quality can often drop cause the guy is sore and tired from the work required to get that chance.
I think the thing with Larsson and always has been is, you need a solid guy on his left that can move the puck well.

Edit: Larsson is 88th in the league for GA/60, he doesn't move the puck but he is very high end at preventing goals.
 

McCombo

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The point here, I'll try and out it simple.

Advanced stats are effected by 10 players on the ice at a time, and are then applied to a player equally.

A player could allow tons of of high danger chances, but as far as I've seen, if it's a right side d, and the guy is always breaking in on the left, it still dings that right side d.

There are some analytics groups that have some stats that focus on the individual player and their mistakes but they aren't the most reliable as the amount of time required to focus on individual players is astronomical.
If we have lets say 5+ year sample size and if pretty much every year one specific player has bad at on ice numbers, compared to teammates. How probable it would be that he has very little affect on those results?
 

CycloneSweep

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If we have lets say 5+ year sample size and if pretty much every year one specific player has bad at on ice numbers, compared to teammates. How probable it would be that he has very little affect on those results?
I guess it would depend on usage. Is the guy always playing with the same players?

You can assume but it's hard to tell for sure. You would have to deep dive. Is it a bad team and he just happens to be the worst stat wise of the bunch? Is it a very good team and his numbers are bad?

And then you have to ask, how much does it really matter? If a guy has really bad on ice stats but is rarely on for a goal against, or is a guy with bad on ice numbers but happens to always be on for a goal for.

I'd say advanced stats are best used to determine usage. Look at a group of 5 players or even just a line/pairing and look at their numbers together, all of them. Are they succeeding together or failing. It can be good at that because you are using group stats and looking at the group.

Using them to determine individual player effects is still too all over the place.
 
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PerformanceMcOil

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If we have lets say 5+ year sample size and if pretty much every year one specific player has bad at on ice numbers, compared to teammates. How probable it would be that he has very little affect on those results?

I don't know - do you? Funny how the 'eye test' is subjective, but 'feels like it is a really low probability' is gospel.
 

McCombo

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I will heavily disagree on Larsson. Larsson has been very good this year.
Of course the offensive numbers aren't there but he is used in a shutdown role and is doing it very successfully..

One thing actual players have mention and a guy like Strudwick who has played has said is, you need guys like Larsson who are hard to play against. The hard hitting, hard to play against guys. Sure they may allow chances and stuff but when the chance comes the quality can often drop cause the guy is sore and tired from the work required to get that chance.
I think the thing with Larsson and always has been is, you need a solid guy on his left that can move the puck well.

Edit: Larsson is 88th in the league for GA/60, he doesn't move the puck but he is very high end at preventing goals.
I get that but if nothings happens in the other end when he is on the ice, that is not good. I don't care how well he has kept the puck out of your own net, if he ends up as a net negative. 17-18 he was +/-0, 16-17 was the last time he had positive goal share 5on5. You don't need to spend 4+ mil to get those results. Useful player in 3rd pairing and heavy usage in PK. At the price for 3rd pairing guys. That's my opinion.
 

McCombo

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I don't know - do you? Funny how the 'eye test' is subjective, but 'feels like it is a really low probability' is gospel.
I think that there must truth to it. Why would best players in the world end up as positive side in on ice metrics, a lot more often than not so good players. If it just random and all over the place you would see them constantly in negative side. Player like Eichel happens to be one of few every year above 50 In Buffalo when the team is well below 50.
 

Ol' Jase

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I get that but if nothings happens in the other end when he is on the ice, that is not good. I don't care how well he has kept the puck out of your own net, if he ends up as a net negative. 17-18 he was +/-0, 16-17 was the last time he had positive goal share 5on5. You don't need to spend 4+ mil to get those results. Useful player in 3rd pairing and heavy usage in PK. At the price for 3rd pairing guys. That's my opinion.

But that is not Larsson's role nor responsibility.

This is a perfect example of exactly what everyone is trying to tell you. HE isn't at a net negative, the unit based metric is. Unit based offensive production metrics are not indictive of Adam Larsson's ability to play defense.
 

Ol' Jase

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I think that there must truth to it. Why would best players in the world end up as positive side in on ice metrics, a lot more often than not so good players. If it just random and all over the place you would see them constantly in negative side. Player like Eichel happens to be one of few every year above 50 In Buffalo when the team is well below 50.

Because they score more often?!?!

You don't think it's apparent to the casual fan that the best players in the world are better than average players simply by watching them?
 
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McCombo

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Do tell, how is game score measured.
I couldn't find a site. But I will quote few pieces. It would be too long if I quoted the whole thing.

"How the model works

It’s mostly outlined here in this FAQ posted before our 2017-18 projections, but basically it’s built at the player level using Game Score – a stat I adapted from basketball a few years ago. Working at the player level rather than the team level is one way that my model differs from others that are scaled via team performance only. It offers some challenges in terms of allocating proper credit, but has the advantage of being able to instantly factor for injuries and trades in ways a team-level model cannot.
Game Score is a linear weight model with the weights for each stat within it being derived according to the frequency of goals occurring from them and are as such:
Goals: 0.75
Primary Assists: 0.7
Secondary Assists: 0.55
Shots: 0.075
Blocks: 0.05
Penalty Differential: 0.15
Faceoff Differential: 0.01
5-on-5 Corsi Differential: 0.05
5-on-5 Goal Differential: 0.15
It uses data from each player’s last three seasons, with each component weighted by recency and regressed to the mean individually. That means that the weight for each prior season is different for goals than it is for shots or blocks (and different for forwards and defencemen), as is the regression factor. On top of that, there’s an age adjustment (using methods outlined here) performed at the start of each year that slowly lessens until the end of the season, as well as a small usage adjustment that factors in a player’s teammates and competition based on 5-on-5 Game Score.
From there, each player has a projection for each component going forward and that’s plugged into the Game Score formula to get a projected Game Score going forward. That’s then transformed into a wins above replacement rate (with replacement level being the 372nd forward and 186th defenceman) to create Game Score Value Added, or GSVA. That value is added up for each team based on the players in their starting lineup, and voila: team strength projections.
So what’s different now then? Glad you asked.


Better accounting for defence (and more emphasis on play-driving)
One of the largest downfalls of my model has always been a bias toward offence. Defence matters and needs to be accounted for better.
The reason for that is simply that there are a lot of offensive box score stats to include in Game Score and just not many defensive ones. It’s worked out fine until now (largely because a lot of the credit just went to the goalie and offence being much easier to predict), but there’s a bit of egg on my face with two of the league’s best defensive teams squaring off in the final. Again, strong offensive teams (Toronto, Chicago) were disproportionately favoured relative to the market over strong defensive teams (St. Louis, Islanders).
To properly account for skater defence all we really have is a player’s shot suppression numbers, so it’s time to ramp those up a bit. I looked at the average player’s Game Score for each team over the last decade per position, separated his individual contributions from his on-ice contributions at both offence and defence and then compared that to the team’s goal differential to see just how much of an increase needed to be made. For forwards, it was by a factor of 2.92, and for defencemen it was 3.83 – so … significantly more important than previously measured. Oops.
There’s one more added wrinkle: increasing the effect of offensive play-driving too. For forwards, things increase slightly by a factor of 1.67, but for defenders it’s much larger at 2.83. That leaves the following weights for expected goals and goals (measured as a combination of relative to average and relative to team):
F xGF: 0.625
F GF: 0.625
F xGA: 1.75
F GA: 0.4375
D xGF: 1.7

D GF: 0.425
D xGA: 2.3
D GA: 0.575
The difference between offensive and defensive play-driving should partially counterbalance the amount of credit players get for individual contributions which skew toward the fun part of the ice. This is especially helpful for defenders who now receive much more credit for where the puck is when they’re on the ice, rather than simply on points scored – a much-needed improvement."

Should give some sort of picture about GS. Now to bed.
 

CantHaveTkachev

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I think that there must truth to it. Why would best players in the world end up as positive side in on ice metrics, a lot more often than not so good players. If it just random and all over the place you would see them constantly in negative side. Player like Eichel happens to be one of few every year above 50 In Buffalo when the team is well below 50.
because he is a damn good player cause I watch him

I don't need analytics to tell me that lol
 

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