ESPN'S Top 15 NBA Players of All-Time
- Thread starter Elvis P
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Larry was a pretty good defensive player himself, and LeBron's was never a lock-down defender. Bird over LBJ has little to do with rings.
And there's nothing reasonable with putting 10 guys ahead of Bird.
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Larry was a very good team defender, but I'd give Lebron the edge overall. I'd also give Lebron the edge in peak and longevity. Better simple and advanced stats. Not sure what Bird has on Lebron honestly. Better shooter and slightly better passer, yes, but Lebron was still more effective offensively.
I think there 10 or more guys have a case for being ahead of Bird depending on what you value.
Far better shooter, far better at the stripe, better passer, better rebounder (he averaged almost 10 boards per game playing with McHale and Parrish), comparable defensively, etc. He has plenty on James.
Unless you can tell the future I'm not sure how you can say LBJ has better longevity. He has know played in the 13 seasons just as Bird, he will most likely last longer, but you never know.
As for the peak, it's close, in Larry's MVP years he shot over 50% from the field, over 40% from downtown, around 90% from the stripe, pulled down about 10 rbs per game, 6.5 assists, close to 2 steals, 1 block and 26+ points.
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Lebron still has had higher true shooting percentages throughout his career than Bird since he was far better at finishing the most efficient shots - those at or around the rim - for obvious reasons. He also drew fouls at far higher rates, for the same obvious reasons. I'm talking in tangible, measurable terms, not in terms of how well-rounded his skill set was compared to Bird's. His advanced stats are clearly a tier above Bird's. Adjusted Plus/Minus, win shares, PER, VORP - pretty much everything. Clear advantage in the playoffs too. He also played his career in an era with significantly lower league average pace (possessions/48 minutes) and scoring than Bird did, so it's even more impressive that he still has higher assist and scoring numbers than Bird.
And yeah, you absolutely can say Lebron has had better longevity, since he was barely injured in those 13 seasons, whereas in one of Bird's 13 seasons he only played 6 games, and he really dropped off in his last two seasons. By comparison, Lebron was already an elite player by his second year, and he has been continuously ever since then.
Wouldn't you also say it's far easier to get a foul called nowadays and that getting to the rim is easier than back when Bird was playing? I mean taking stats at face value has little value if they are not put in context.
Power Man
Grrrr
On longevity : Bird also threw his back out in 85, yet he was able to play through it at a high level
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It's possible that marginally more fouls are called today than in the 80s, but not nearly enough to account for the difference in how many more free throws per field goal attempt Lebron drew than Bird. Bird averaged .258 FT per FG attempt over his career; Lebron is at .425 for his career. That more than makes up for the fact that Lebron was a worse free throw shooter. Jordan for comparison was at .358 for his career, but the number went down as his career went on and his game became less about getting to the rim. His numbers from his first five seasons aren't that far behind Lebron's in this stat. If you look at total free throw attempts, early Jordan is actually ahead of Lebron, again in part thanks to the higher pace at which the game was played in the 80s. The difference between Bird and Lebron has a lot more to do with the kinds of shots Lebron was taking thanks to his far superior athleticism.
No, it isn't easier to get to the rim than it was in the 80s. Team defense has improved a lot thanks to the elimination of the illegal defense rule in 2001. Certainly not every team employs their defense in a way to shut down penetration, especially in the regular season, but in Lebron's era a player attempting to penetrate is far more likely to have to beat multiple defenders and be forced to pass the ball to another teammate before getting to the rim. People who say that it was so much harder to score in the 80s and 90s are purely peddling nostalgia.
Gobo
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1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Lebron
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Oscar
10. Hakeem
11. Shaq
12. Moses
13. Kobe
14. West
15. Baylor
Another source for stuff like this, Jack Mcallum of SI just wrote something similar for top-50 players. Liked his list a lot.
http://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Lebron
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Oscar
10. Hakeem
11. Shaq
12. Moses
13. Kobe
14. West
15. Baylor
Another source for stuff like this, Jack Mcallum of SI just wrote something similar for top-50 players. Liked his list a lot.
http://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest
Power Man
Grrrr
Jordan was the best 1 on 1 player, but he never had an impact on his team like Bird or Magic did.
Vamos Rafa
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You don't really need to tell that, ya know? What's it for, to make your point valid?
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I agree with ESPN putting Hakeem in the top 10. Except for Bird, Magic, and Jordan, he was better than all the Dream Teamers and he proved it in the 94 & 95 playoffs winning back to back titles. Nuff said.
Mine would be
Nos. 1-5: 1. Russell, 2. Jordan, 3. Kareem, 4. Magic 5. Wilt,
Nos. 6-10: 6. Duncan, 7. Kobe 8. Shaq, 9. Bird 10. Hakeem
11. Oscar Robertson 12. LeBron 13. Jerry West 14. Julius Erving 15. Moses Malone
Mine would be
Nos. 1-5: 1. Russell, 2. Jordan, 3. Kareem, 4. Magic 5. Wilt,
Nos. 6-10: 6. Duncan, 7. Kobe 8. Shaq, 9. Bird 10. Hakeem
11. Oscar Robertson 12. LeBron 13. Jerry West 14. Julius Erving 15. Moses Malone
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Anyone here old enough to remember what the outlook going forward was after those back-to-back titles? Did people think they were a power that was going to last a while?
EpochLink
Canucks and Jets fan
Voight
#winning
Voight
#winning
Thing is LeBron joined forces with two other top players yet only won two titles. Heck, in 2014 he was a complete no-show.
Huh? They won 6 titles, and as soon as he returned from retirement they went on to have the best season of all time and have another 3 peat.
Wade was only still a top player in LeBron's first season with the Heat. And LeBron was a no show in 2014? Please back this up. You have no clue what you are talking about
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He has a far better case for top 10 than Kobable. Huge impact on both ends. The rare player who actually played better in the playoffs than in the regular season.
Virtanen18
SAMCRO
What a world we live in where "only two titles" in just 4 years is looked down upon.
Power Man
Grrrr
BGDDYKWL
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Pretty much. If I say that without mentioning that I'm not even a LeBron fan then you might think it's coming from someone who just thinks very highly of him and thus might be biased.
darko
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