ESPN Article: Top 10 Centers in the NHL, as Ranked by Players and Team Officials

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Cousin Eddie, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. Dusty Gootch Jones is new OEL

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    Barkov is an awesome player but Matthews is slightly better. Matthews defensive game is getting better by the game. Keep in mind it took Barkov a few seasons to become as good defensively as he is now. Matthews is right on track to be as good defensively but with 50 goals.
     
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  2. FLpanthers16 #CatsAreComing

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    Barkov is going to win a Selke this year, will see if Matthews has one in him not sure.
     
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  3. Zybalto Registered User

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    Kinda weird to take the ranking route but OK.

    Top points/60 among Centers 2017-2019

    1. McDavid
    2. Stamkos
    3. Malkin
    4. MacKinnon
    5. Bergeron
    6. Matthews - 3.42

    Doesnt look like 2nd to me.

    Top points/60 among Centers 2019-current:

    1. McDavid
    2. Draisaitl
    3. MacKinnon
    4. Matthews - 3.34


    Hmm, Care to check again?

    Maybe I'm making the mistake though.....not sure.
     
  4. bucks_oil Registered User

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    We might be arguing the same point from a different perspective.

    My point is that all of these guys are (or should be) elite two-way centers. They are used in all situations. Your point about Matthews vs Ovechkin... he's a winger, different utilization, so you need to use rate data to compare, I agree.

    But these guys are all apples. They will likely have quite similar utilization. If they don't then they aren't really apples and they shouldn't be in the conversation.

    Fictional Example:
    • Let's say Drai was so poor defensively and so poor on the draw that he couldn't be trusted for own zone draws or played when defending the lead.
    • In contrast, Matthews was the go-to guy in such situations.
    • If their offense was actually equivalent, Matthews would have a lower P/60 than Drai, simply because he has more utilization in situations where pressing for offense is not the coaches mandate.
    Now if you want to talk about specific rate data to determine who is better in a specific situation... for example PPGF/60, then I agree... it can tell you who a better PP scorer is. Same for PKGA/60. Either would give you a mark of a players' efficiency in a given situation.

    but that's not what the poster was advocating.... and I was objecting to P/60 (where perhaps I should have been more specific about that).

    And, this might be nit-picking, but it isn't relevant to raw production... its a rate of production. At the end of the day, if you want to talk about offense, it comes down to actual production. Points produced in all situations (which may penalize/reflect accurately oft-injured players, depending on one's perspective). Or Points/game if you want to balance for production based on guys who were injured, or to compare across shortened seasons, etc.
     
  5. Yackiberg8 Registered User

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    So you don’t think Connor McDavid, Nathan MacKinnon, Auston Matthews is a top 5 centre?
     
  6. bucks_oil Registered User

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    @ PB1300

    Where are you getting your numbers from?

    From Natural Stat Trick

    2021 All Situations:
    Draisaitl w/ McD = 392:40
    Draisaitl w/o McD = 485:07
    So that's 55% of the time without McDavid

    2021 Even Strength:
    Draisaitl w/ McD = 215:22
    Draisaitl w/o McD = 442:55
    So that's 67% of the time without McDavid

    That's pretty close to the inverse of what you are saying/re-quoting.
     
  7. Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    One could argue the guy you get a full 82 games out of is more effective/important than the one that's constantly missing 32 games.

    I mean, this site uses that argument often against Malkin whenever he's being compared to someone who produces less PPG than he does, but who has more raw points because Malkin misses so much time every season. Hell, it was used constantly for Matthews over Malkin last year by a lot of Leaf fans.
     
  8. Arthur Morgan Registered User

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    Should a Oilers fan be throwing stones when every other day there's a new McDavid vs thread....lol
     
  9. Pierce Hawthorne Formerly Avsare1

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    Yikes that's a big swing and a miss...
     
  10. Arthur Morgan Registered User

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    Obvious some dumb leafs fans. everyone obviously knows Bergeron is better than Marner. for how long is another question. he's not getting any younger.
     
  11. Yackiberg8 Registered User

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    If someone is injured for a large chunk of the season consistently then I could see the argument but as an example:

    if you’re evaluating players and it’s just after the 2011-12 season and you’re ranking Loui Eriksson ahead of Crosby because you see Eriksson has 144 points in 161 GP and Crosby only has 103 points in 63 GP and your conclusion is that Eriksson has overtaken Crosby as a better hockey player then there is something wrong with you.

    It seems silly but there are some people here arguing that Eriksson would be better at playing hockey based on that information.

    Another conclusion could be that Crosby was getting 1.63 P/GP over that time compared to 0.89 P/GP for Eriksson and is quite clearly the better hockey player.
     
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  12. Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    But that's why neither (raw nor per 60 nor points per game) are perfect. And why all sorts of context is needed for all of those, not just raw totals.

    My issue is people seem to suggest points per game or points per 60 is more "accurate" or need less context than raw totals. That's simply not true.
     
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  13. Contenderorpretender Registered User

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    Maybe but again that's on a voting system. Similarly to this poll. Except this is amongst peers and executives and the selky is voted on by the professional hockey writers association. So you'll accept the votes from talking heads that you probably complain about but have a hard time accepting these results?
     
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  14. BKarchitect Registered User

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    These Barkov takes are hilarious. They would have been applicable last season when IMO he wasn’t very good (for him) and was relying on past reputation for his god-like defensive reputation. It was annoying and I was one of those shouting “ummm, have you watched Barkov play this year? He has definitely not been a Selke-worthy defensive presence...stop living off reputation please.”

    But this year? Completely different story. He’s absolutely been a better defensive center than Matthews and is arguably a more influential presence on the ice with insane expected goals for and possession metrics that really only McDavid and MacKinnon can compete with.

    Matthews is a more dangerous scoring center for sure and was definitely better last year so I am not definitively saying everyone has to think Barkov>Matthews. But it’s certainly an argument and the absolute best statistic that back up just how good Barkov has been this year (especially compared to last year): 0.565 and 0.700. That’s the Panthers win% last year compared to this year and if you don’t think Barkov is the absolute, unquestionable, gigantic factor in why this is (and why guys like Carter Verhaeghe look like all-stars most nights), then I don’t know what to tell you or what exactly you expect a top 5 center in the NHL to do.
     
  15. FLpanthers16 #CatsAreComing

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    Ohh i agree said it before, its a popularity contest and based on reputation, if you play for Boston or Florida the Boston guy will win it more times then not and its a shame.
     
  16. daver Registered User

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    The numbers are for 2017/18 to 2018/19 vs. 2019/20 to 2020/21. Matthews TOI increased 2 1/2 minutes between the 18/19 season and the 19/20 season.

    Matthews was 2nd in P/60 and 40th in TOI

    With the increase in TOI, he dropped to 11th in P/60 and 5th in TOI.
     
  17. Yackiberg8 Registered User

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    I agree, context is key. I am not a fan of P/60 but P/GP is a great offensive indicator over a large sample size.
     
  18. Zybalto Registered User

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    Oh, I see the issue.

    You are going strictly 5v5, leaving out all other strengths including PP minutes.

    You get a much clearer view of the changes if you sort by Nov.20th, 2019 (start of coaching change and his increase in icetime) as well as looking at all situations data.

    His .38 5v5 points/60 drop off between the two periods is entirely due to a drop in assists which may be caused by not having a sniper like Nylander on his wing and his Goals/60 actually slightly increased. (Some Leafs fans have called at points to split Marner off to reunite with Tavares and they may have a point there looking at the numbers)

    Overall though, pretty steady production at /60 paces and his increased icetime certainly makes his numbers look better, thats for sure.
     
  19. CatchyTune JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF

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    He very well could. But just because Barkov is a top defensive center doesnt mean Matthews isnt good in that regard either. Compare most centers' defence to Barkov and it wont look as good.

    Also you say Barkov will win the Selke, but Matthews has a very good chance at the Rocket. So i could flip around what you said about Matthews' Selke chances about Barkov's Rocket chances
     
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  20. Zybalto Registered User

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    One more quick note,
    because you went with 5v5 here, it also clusters things together a fair amount.

    Lieterally .13 points/60 between 11th and 5th on the list. Matthews being injured on two separate occasions and going through a points drought during them as good a reason as any.

    Really do need larger sample sizes for these types of things I guess. Lets see how it plays out.

    As it stands, for total points/60 from 2017-coaching change: 3.42
    How do the numbers look?

    GP: 91
    Goals 49 (1.78/60)
    Points 100 (3.42/60)

    Coaching change-Current: 3.29

    GP: 83
    Goals: 60 (1.99/60)
    Points: 99 (3.29/60)

    Oh, and if you are wondering where the extra goals are coming from, averaging a minute more a game on the PP under Keefe might do that.

    Hey, a coach playing Matthews the most TOI on the PP instead of 4th most equals more goals on the PP. WTH was Babcock thinking?
     
  21. FLpanthers16 #CatsAreComing

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    now you making it sound like i said Matthews is a bad player, was a response to the defensive side of things.
     
  22. Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    Your numbers show that Matthews is producing less points per 60 under Keefe getting more ice time than he did previously under Babcock, no? From 3.42 per 60 down to 3.29 per 60?

    So which stat is a more accurate reflection of Matthews? The per60 one that suggests he's gotten less productive, or the raw totals which shows he's gone from outside the top 10 to inside the top 5?

    If anything, the stats are an argument in favor of raw totals over per60 totals telling the "real" story of Matthews.
     
  23. CatchyTune JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF

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    maybe i missed some of the convo my bad. i just thought that could go both ways. both guys could easily have a mentioned trophy at years end
     
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  24. pb1300 #CatsAreComing

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    Barkov came into the league known for his defensive game. He didn’t become good, he was always good, and now he’s arguably the best. He always drives his lines production. Whoever plays with him, produces. His stats and advanced metrics are better, he plays with lesser linemates, and point production is on par, while taking more defensive zone starts, and playing on the PK. Matthews is a hell of a goal scorer, arguably the best in the game, but that is where the advantage ends. If the roles were reversed, this wouldn’t even be discussed.
     
  25. romanstar Registered User

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    you know somebodys got an ego problem when theyre judging their opinion of the top 10 centers better than nhl players opinion , lmfao . this kingdom has a HUGE problem with low iq'ed egomaniac know it alls
     
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