GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
I'd probably disagree at this point in time but ignoring this specific comparison and just looking at the poster you already know he is going to down play Eichel.
This can be seen here:
Eichel, Aho, Hischier, Dahlin /vs/ Marner, Pettersson, M.Tkachuk, Q.Hughes
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I'd probably disagree at this point in time but ignoring this specific comparison and just looking at the poster you already know he is going to down play Eichel.
This can be seen here:
No, once again, I did not downplay Eichel. I have nothing against Eichel. I'm just ranking him properly, instead of massively overrating him.
I'm not sure why you're "ignoring the specific comparison" when that is the specific comparison that is being made by me and at the very heart of this thread. Pettersson is a very good player; there's no reason to think it means people hate Eichel.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
Lmfao there are far more reasons than the Pettersson comparison to think you guys down play him every time he's mentioned, that's why I ignored the comparison.
Just look at the part where you said he was somewhere in the middle of this group of forwards.
Just look at the part where you said he was somewhere in the middle of this group of forwards.
Ok, I'm looking at it, and it's a true statement.
He's behind Marner and Pettersson. He has a good case for being ahead of Tkachuk, Aho, and Hischier.
mattihp
Registered User
Aho and Tkachuk have quite similar offensive stats. One is a better goal scorer and the other notches more assists.
Player A:
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]Player B
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]The offensive output is not that different, except that player A scores more goals than player B makes up for it with assists.
If their defensive game was equal I would go with player A.
If their physical game was equal the defensive game would be the tie breaker for me.
Player B is the agitator with the physical skillset, but I would say Player A is the better defensive player.
I would go with Aho, but I did not expect them to be so close in points!
I am still going with group B though, as this battle is so close and Hischier is on group A. He is still to blossom!
Player A:
| Games | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 82 | 24 | 25 | 49 |
| 78 | 29 | 36 | 65 |
| 82 | 30 | 53 | 83 |
| 68 | 38 | 28 | 66 |
| 310 | 121 | 142 | 263 |
| Average per game | 0,39 | 0,46 | 0,85 |
| Games | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 76 | 13 | 35 | 48 |
| 68 | 24 | 25 | 49 |
| 80 | 34 | 43 | 77 |
| 69 | 23 | 38 | 61 |
| 293 | 94 | 141 | 235 |
| Average per game | 0,32 | 0,48 | 0,80 |
If their defensive game was equal I would go with player A.
If their physical game was equal the defensive game would be the tie breaker for me.
Player B is the agitator with the physical skillset, but I would say Player A is the better defensive player.
I would go with Aho, but I did not expect them to be so close in points!
I am still going with group B though, as this battle is so close and Hischier is on group A. He is still to blossom!
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
Sometimes you have to step out of your delusion and realize what you're saying. If this were true, you'd think with having two players better than Eichel on the same line it would show up somewhere right? Like the standings, stats, something.
Could you imagine if Eichel was playing with not just another Eichel, but someone supposedly better? They'd only be behind the Oilers duo in points and not far behind.
Put Eichel on a line with Matthews and they're much more dangerous than the Matthews/Marner combo.
Edit: I think you guys are just attempting to justify those contracts lol
Since 2018-2019:
ES P/60
Marner: 2.99
Eichel: 2.53
ES P1/60
Marner: 2.51
Eichel: 1.85
PP P/60
Marner: 6.70
Eichel: 5.95
PP P1/60
Marner: 4.17
Eichel: 3.93
Marner is also younger and PKs.
Halla
Registered User
- Jan 28, 2016
- 14,727
- 3,779
leaf fans are happy enough to pay the star players and make the playoffs every year, as opposed to being such a terrible team the star players lose their love of the game and get run out of town for scraps. Does Eichel get a playoff game by year 9 or 10?
50/50
ps. remember when the sabres were 2 years ahead of the leafs rebuild in 2016? that karma is still paying dividends. cheers!
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
I've told you this before but the game isn't played on a piece of paper, the only thing you can use.
/60 isn't a perfect representation of anything either and it's not like he doesn't have more to work with at the moment.
Wow he is 6 months older, as a forward and they're 22/23, is this supposed to mean something?
I think you meant 100% he does.
Was this before or after you won the lotto and signed Tavares?
(Ps. our cup window is still going to be better and longer, and speaking of karma it'll be splendid when your little contingent of Eichel/Sabres detractors are forced to either eat crow or make yourselves look like even bigger fools, and it's gonna happen sooner than you think )
I'm actually not using a piece of paper at all. I am using personal knowledge and valuable information/data that is available to us. I question what you are using, beyond just adamantly declaring that your guy is better because "you'll see why some day".
...said a dwindling number every year for the last half decade.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
Yes, you are just using a piece of paper.
Stats can be helpful but you first have to use them in a correct way, and that involves taking in other relevant information.
You're honestly going to act like the situation hasn't changed?
We've only had Dahlin for 2 years and he is 19. We have Cozens coming up and another high pick. Olofsson was a steal and only just played his first season.
That "some day" is much closer than you're gonna like
I am using it correctly, and I am taking in relevant information. I have supported my position that Marner is better than Eichel and group B is better than group A (which isn't actually reliant on Marner>Eichel). You have not provided any counter of any kind; just complaints about people "hating" your player/team and unsupported future predictions.
It is very likely that Buffalo does not have the pieces to get them out of mediocrity in the Atlantic division in the near future, even with the development of Dahlin, but I have no desire to turn this into a Buffalo discussion thread.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
Taking the offensive talent Marner has to currently work with compared to Eichel's is one of the easiest and most obvious pieces of information you could use but you can't even do that.
You're just making it worse for yourself
Eichel's conditions for production in general aren't great relative to the average star, but it's really gotten blown up more than it is; and at the same time you exaggerate help received by others. It's not even close to closing that massive gap in production between them. Eichel certainly did not struggle getting help from linemates this year, as their luck in OISH% more than made up for any lack of skill.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
There you go with the OISH% again somehow thinking it's going to plummet, or even better actually thinking it would make up the gap between their offensive support.
A gap that yielded no actual gap in production this year. Honestly, where did you come up with this massive gap in production you're claiming? Doesn't even exist despite having more to work with on the leafs.
You also say Eichel's lack of support is overblown as is playing with better line mates, yet it's the opposite of this that is the truth. None of you watch the Sabres enough to understand Eichels position while ignoring who your players play with.
It did plummet. Still high for him, but at least we're in extremely unlikely to sustain range instead of impossible to sustain range.
I recommend you take some time and learn how OISH% significantly affects production.
There is a gap in production this year.
I showed you above.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
It plummeted for reasons you are choosing to ignore.
I'd recommend you look more into the stat youself. Then you should look into why two people with the shots of Eichel/Olofsson would have a high S% and how it will come down far less than you think.
There is no gap and you didn't show squat.
I didn't ignore anything. It plummeted because that's what was obviously going to happen, because he and his line were at crazy unsustainable SH%s. As I already addressed, it might have been further impacted by him potentially being mildly injured for 3 games at the end of the season, but that was minimal impact on the overall picture.
I know plenty about it.
Eichel actually does not average very high SH%s. There is no reason to think Olofsson will.
There is a significant gap. See post #32, and try getting back to the thread topic.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
Buddy, ignoring the part about Eichel which only further proves your lack of knowledge about said player, you lost the small credibility you didn't have with this one.
VO has a beast of a shot which probably disproves your claim just based on this alone, never mind he also has an elite playmaker in Eichel to play with and Dahlin too.
I'm still laughing honestly.
As for "Post #32" I've already said /60 stats don't really mean much and there isn't a direct correlation between playing more minutes and keeping the same /60 stats.
They weren't even good enough to claim this massive gap, and still ignore the team he plays for.
What are you even talking about? I didn't ignore anything about Eichel. Eichel's previous high for SH% was 10.2% overall. He is not a high percentage shooter. He is at 15.9% this year, even after it has dropped.
No, your qualitative personal assessment that "he has a beast of a shot" does not disprove anything, or prove that Olofsson is likely to maintain an inflated SH%. Him playing with Eichel/Dahlin also does not make this remotely likely.
Contrary to your unsupported claim, per 60 stats are incredibly valuable and provide more insight than production without the context of TOI.
There is no evidence of negative impact on per 60 stats with increased average TOI. It is the most accurate measure of production.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
What am I talking about? I'm talking about how you continue to cling to your little spread sheets. Eichel has always had a high end shot, just happened to work on it and utilize it better. Oh ya and team improvements and what not. Something you won't see when all you do is read stats.
You're really gonna sit there and try and down play VO's shot? It alone gives reason to think he'll maintain a high Sh%, never mind playing on a line with Eichel at EV and on the PP with Dahlin too. It makes it the most plausible assumption actually, the opposite of unlikely to happen.
You really don't have a clue about the Sabres at all.
As for your golden stats, they may be better than production without context but far less valuable than production with context, something you still can't do.
No evidence doesn't mean it isn't true, /60 aren't much better than raw point totals. Again you need context.
Using factual information and data is not "clinging to spreadsheets". It's called supporting your claims.
So on one hand, you say Eichel is better than those who massively outproduce him because he's a one-man show who has never gotten any help, but now he's suddenly increased his SH% by an insanely unsustainable percentage because of "team improvements"...
Nobody is downplaying his shot. He's very unlikely to maintain the SH% he put up this year. It is not just about having a "good shot".
The evidence actually supports the opposite; that per 60 stats tend to increase slightly with increased TOI, though that's probably due to external factors. Per 60 stats are better than raw totals. Per 60 stats are literally production with increased context.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
Reading stats and using it as the sole basis for your arguments is literally clinging to a spreadsheet, and ignoring the context isn't going to support your claims.
No, he is better than those who put up identical (Note: not massively more in the slightest) production with more help. He increased his SH% by utilizing his shot more, which was already pretty good. There were also team improvements in a rookie Olofsson and Dahlin gaining experience, but these probably had less to do with the SH% increase and both will continue to further improve along with other additions to the team, which gives reason to believe in sustained or increased production.
Just because Jack is finally getting a little help doesn't mean he won't get more or that the situation is even comparable yet to the leafs players. Not sure where you tried to go with this one.
You are downplaying VO's shot, if his SH% drops it won't be by much and could see seasons with it being higher (you'll love that one). It isn't about having a good shot, it's about having a really, really good shot. Oh and playing with Eichel and Dahlin. Ya that doesn't hurt.
/60 may have a slight amount of extra context but far from the whole truth. Still lacks a decent amount of context like every other stat.
Arguing based solely on personal qualitative assessments obtained through the biased eye test doesn't solve or prove anything. Using facts and data and information is called supporting your claims.
I have not ignored any context. I used additional context in my evidence, and have addressed everything you put forward.
The comparison was to Marner. He does not produce the identical amount as Marner. He produces considerably less.
That would have the opposite effect on SH%.
You're simultaneously claiming that Eichel gets no help, and that Olofsson is some scoring phenom with a Matthews-level shot.
GOALOFSSON
Game Changer
There isn't anything biased about the leafs having more offensive firepower overall at this moment in time.
Yes, this the context you are still ignoring. No, claiming an impossible oiSH% doesn't make up for it.
He does not produce considerably less than Marner at all, while again having less to work with.
The Marner > either of the two C train died before it began.
Utilizing his shot more doesn't automatically mean more shot attempts and even if it did you wouldn't always be right. More shots in better areas/better shot choice and not trying to pass to a teammate when he could/should shoot could see a slight increase in SH% in certain instances.
You still are underrating VO's shot, and even though he is 24 he was a rookie with noticable improvements after the first chunk of the season. The shot is deadly.
There is also a difference between no help and getting to play with Matthews/Tavares.
Speaking to further improvements, Dahlin's continued growth alone would help increase production.
