Proposal: EDM - WSH

[VTDAlane]

Just assuming that if the Caps do not win the cup (or maybe even don't make it past the Penguins) that they'd be interested in moving on from some core players.

To WSH:
Jesse Puljujärvi
EDM 2018 1st (10th overall)
Cam Talbot

To EDM:
Andre Burakovsky
Braden Holtby
FLA 2018 2nd (~45th overall)
One caps D prospect not named Johansen - (Siegenthaler, Hobbs, Williams)

I think the value can be shifted a little bit either way, but it in general would make sense for both squads. Burakovsky and McDavid have some chemistry from their one season together in Erie. Holtby makes the EDM squad a lot better over the next two years and WSH can run with Gruby and Talbot next year while Samsonov gets a year of play in the AHL.

Click to read more...

 

[hockeykicker]

Doesn't make any sense for capitals since you can argue that burakovsky is better then puljarjvi, holtby is better then talbot which just leaves the oilers first and either a defender who scored 31 goals in whl (hobbs) the likely orpik replacement in sigenthaler or the total wildcard in williams

Does the oilers first rounder make up for the two other differences as well as the caps giving up a young defender?

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Change Holtby to Grubauer and adjust the value for Edmonton accordingly.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I seriously question why on earth Edmonton would consider this.

McDavid is McDavid. Junior chemistry from four years ago doesn’t matter one iota.

Talbot is fine as a starter. He had a bad year - Holtby did too. I don’t see how Holtby coming off a miserable year ‘makes Edmonton better over the next two years’. By the way you’re hashing this deal out you’re assuming he’s some major upgrade on Talbot and I don’t agree with that at all.

The way I see this is Puljujarvi and Burakovsky are an approximate value wash, so we’re submarining a top ten pick to pick up a guy that had a worse season than Talbot did, pick up a middling D prospect, and drop 35 spots. Not interested.

I wouldn’t touch your deal with a ten foot pole to be honest. I don’t think it makes us better short term, it definitely doesn’t help us long term, and we pick up a cool five million in salary. Back to the drawing board.

 

[VTDAlane]

Change Holtby to Grubauer and adjust the value for Edmonton accordingly.

I keep going back and forth on whether BMac would want to trade Gruby or Holtby, but if the Caps flame out again I think selling Holtby while he would have two years on his contract left would be the best move.

 

[peterthegreat12]

Capitals say no thanks. This just doesn't make any sense, and I don't see this as fair value for the Capitals.

 

[VTDAlane]

Doesn't make any sense for capitals since you can argue that burakovsky is better then puljarjvi, holtby is better then talbot which just leaves the oilers first and either a defender who scored 31 goals in whl (hobbs) the likely orpik replacement in sigenthaler or the total wildcard in williams

Does the oilers first rounder make up for the two other differences as well as the caps giving up a young defender?

I think both teams could argue Bura > Poolparty or vice versa, but that in general both could benefit from a potential change of scenery. Talbot as a ufa is a good stopgap if Gruby somehow decides to regress and then we can move on to Samsonov after the transition year. Caps have stocked up on plenty of D prospects, so losing one isn't the end of the world b/c we'll have our top 4 set for a while once Carlson resigns.

 

[VTDAlane]

I seriously question why on earth Edmonton would consider this.

McDavid is McDavid. Junior chemistry from four years ago doesn’t matter one iota.

Talbot is fine as a starter. He had a bad year - Holtby did too. I don’t see how Holtby coming off a miserable year ‘makes Edmonton better over the next two years’. By the way you’re hashing this deal out you’re assuming he’s some major upgrade on Talbot and I don’t agree with that at all.

The way I see this is Puljujarvi and Burakovsky are an approximate value wash, so we’re submarining a top ten pick to pick up a guy that had a worse season than Talbot did, pick up a middling D prospect, and drop 35 spots. Not interested.

I wouldn’t touch your deal with a ten foot pole to be honest. I don’t think it makes us better short term, it definitely doesn’t help us long term, and we pick up a cool five million in salary. Back to the drawing board.

The NHL of today still requires chemistry between the players. McDavid is the best player (arguably) in the league today, but you still have to find players that mesh with each other and I think Burakovsky on the Oilers will greatly help the success of your first line. I disagree that you think Holtby and Talbot have similar values. I think most other posters would rate Holtby higher in value and he has an extra year over Talbot. Sure you gain 5m in salary, but Poolparty's cap hit is really ~3.5m, so there really isn't much of a cap space issue involved here.

 

[t0nedeff]

No, why would the Oilers do this? Burakovski isn't even much of an upgrade on current Jesse and we're throwing in the 10th pick when both goalies are coming off subpar seasons? what in the world no one is throwing a top 10 pick to what address the net when the guy coming back isn't that much of an upgrade.

 

[VTDAlane]

No, why would the Oilers do this? Burakovski isn't even much of an upgrade on current Jesse and we're throwing in the 10th pick when both goalies are coming off subpar seasons? what in the world no one is throwing a top 10 pick to what address the net when the guy coming back isn't that much of an upgrade.

Your team does this because you want to definitely be back in the playoffs again. Bura slots in 1st line and Holtby is a decent upgrade in net that could steal you more games than Talbot ever could.

 

[rambo97]

WTF is this?

Caps fans are saying no? This Oiler fan is saying hell no.

I wouldn’t trade Pulj straight up for Burakovsky. Pulj has all the physical skills to break out. He’s in his 2nd yr and was 19 years old. So he struggled. So what. He has plenty of time to be in impact player. And even with his struggle his #’s were almost identical to Burakovsky.

And a top 10 pick for Holtby? No thanks. I have plenty of faith in Talbot. He got overplayed last year and struggled this year. He’ll bounce back. The workload increase messed up Bobrovksy and Varlamov too at one point but they both bounced back. I have confidence Talbot will also.

I wouldn’t touch this as an Oiler fan

 

[ChaoticOrange]

The NHL of today still requires chemistry between the players. McDavid is the best player (arguably) in the league today, but you still have to find players that mesh with each other and I think Burakovsky on the Oilers will greatly help the success of your first line. I disagree that you think Holtby and Talbot have similar values. I think most other posters would rate Holtby higher in value and he has an extra year over Talbot. Sure you gain 5m in salary, but Poolparty's cap hit is really ~3.5m, so there really isn't much of a cap space issue involved here.

McDavid turned Pat Maroon into a 27 goal scorer and RNH was scoring at a 40 goal pace on his wing. I’m not too concerned about chemistry, especially junior chemistry which legitimately means nothing. Not a thing.

Over the last three seasons Talbot and Holtby are a wash. They even sucked at the same time. Talbot’s family is here, his kids were born here, and he extended in Edmonton initially when he was allegedly not thrilled with the trade here. He got here with his wife and loved it. What I’m saying is an extra year of Holtby is not overly valuable to us, since I think he and Talbot are close in skill level and I doubt we’ll have a problem keeping Talbot if we want to.

Burakovsky? Nice young player with a career high of 38 points, on a team boasting talent like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Oshie, and Kuznetsov. It’s hardly like he has poor linemates now, so I’m not going to buy into the standard HF schtick of ‘hes worth tons! Our player would EASILY be a 60 goal scorer with McDavid!’. That’s not how it works. Burakovsky is mostly potential at this point and he’s closing on 24 which is why I’d say he and Puljujarvi are a value wash right now (you’re lumping in bonus cushion which is different than base salary with JP)

JP roughly = Burakovsky, but I’d be more inclined to tip that Puljujarvi’s way. He’s primed to break out.
Talbot < Holtby, but the gap isn’t as big as you seem to think
10th >>>>> 2nd and D prospect that we don’t really need. We’re loaded with D prospects to the point that I don’t really know where they’re all going to play after next year.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Your team does this because you want to definitely be back in the playoffs again. Bura slots in 1st line and Holtby is a decent upgrade in net that could steal you more games than Talbot ever could.

Burakovsky is not a first line player at this juncture of his career, selling him as such is dishonest. He’s never broken 40 points. If we’re really being honest he’s much closer to Ryan Strome value wise.

you haven’t once addressed the fact that Holtby was so bad this year at one point it looked like he’d been usurped.

 

[t0nedeff]

Your team does this because you want to definitely be back in the playoffs again. Bura slots in 1st line and Holtby is a decent upgrade in net that could steal you more games than Talbot ever could.

That doesn't help us get back there anymore than not doing trade would. We trade a 20ish point player this past year for like what a 28 pt player and thats gonna push us over the edge enough that we should pay a potential impact forward/defenseman that will be available at the 10 spot? I don't think so and Holtbys number are fairly similar to Talbots over the past 3 years and Holtby has been doing that with stacked teams.

 

[VTDAlane]

McDavid turned Pat Maroon into a 27 goal scorer and RNH was scoring at a 40 goal pace on his wing. I’m not too concerned about chemistry, especially junior chemistry which legitimately means nothing. Not a thing.

Over the last three seasons Talbot and Holtby are a wash. They even sucked at the same time. Talbot’s family is here, his kids were born here, and he extended in Edmonton initially when he was allegedly not thrilled with the trade here. He got here with his wife and loved it. What I’m saying is an extra year of Holtby is not overly valuable to us, since I think he and Talbot are close in skill level and I doubt we’ll have a problem keeping Talbot if we want to.

Burakovsky? Nice young player with a career high of 38 points, on a team boasting talent like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Oshie, and Kuznetsov. It’s hardly like he has poor linemates now, so I’m not going to buy into the standard HF schtick of ‘hes worth tons! Our player would EASILY be a 60 goal scorer with McDavid!’. That’s not how it works. Burakovsky is mostly potential at this point and he’s closing on 24 which is why I’d say he and Puljujarvi are a value wash right now (you’re lumping in bonus cushion which is different than base salary with JP)

JP roughly = Burakovsky
Talbot < Holtby, but the gap isn’t as big as you seem to think
10th >>>>> 2nd and D prospect that we don’t really need. We’re loaded with D prospects to the point that I don’t really know where they’re all going to play after next year.

Holtby and Talbot over the last 3 seasons are not a wash. One actually won the Vezina and then came in 2nd in voting again the next year (Yeah Talbot came in 4th for voting one of those years). I think we agree that JP and Burakovsky have similar values. I didn't realize your D prospect issue. Would it be more enticing to add the Caps 1st in replacement of the FL 2nd rounder and some other prospect?

 

[VTDAlane]

Burakovsky is not a first line player at this juncture of his career, selling him as such is dishonest. He’s never broken 40 points. If we’re really being honest he’s much closer to Ryan Strome value wise.

you haven’t once addressed the fact that Holtby was so bad this year at one point it looked like he’d been usurped.

Bura has the speed and physical power now to be a huge threat, but just does not mesh well with Backstrom and Oshie for whatever reason. I know he doesn't come off as a 1st line player, but the 38 career high points is disingenuous as he's missed a few games here and there over the past two seasons. Last year he had a ppg of .54 and mostly played third line bc we had Mojo and Williams on our 2nd line.

Holtby was never usurped. We just have a really capable backup that we're confident in going to when our starter isn't playing as well as we know they can be. Holtby and Talbot have very similar numbers this year, so I don't really get how you can just hate on him and be confident in Talbot in the same breath.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Holtby and Talbot over the last 3 seasons are not a wash. One actually won the Vezina and then came in 2nd in voting again the next year (Yeah Talbot came in 4th for voting one of those years). I think we agree that JP and Burakovsky have similar values. I didn't realize your D prospect issue. Would it be more enticing to add the Caps 1st in replacement of the FL 2nd rounder and some other prospect?

Not overly, because I don’t see Talbot as needing upgrading. If we look at 16-17 as a high point outlier and this year as a low point outlier, then the truth is he’s still a solid NHL starting goalie. If JP and Burakovsky are a wash value wise - which we mostly agree then you’re wanting a top ten pick to swap goalies (and they struggled equally this season so I don’t see the reason to do that) just to get a very low first and what will not be an impact prospect no matter who it is.

I don’t think it’s a ‘D prospect and 2nd or low 1st and different prospect’ issue. It’s that you see Holtby as a huge upgrade on Talbot... I don’t. With Talbot or with Holtby it wouldn’t have mattered this year and I think Talbot is just as capable of bouncing back next season as Holtby is.

 

[voxel]

To EDM:
One caps D prospect not named Johansen - (Siegenthaler, Hobbs, Williams)

Why?????

Oilers last season had to play a few AHL D in the forward positions (i.e Leggia) because the lack of offensive skill at forward. Jones, Bear, etc. are decent D prospects and there's not much room in the NHL for a D prospect either. Oilers NEED junior/AHL forward prospects not D. Their AHL team had bottom-3 goals for... just zero offensive skill.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Bura has the speed and physical power now to be a huge threat, but just does not mesh well with Backstrom and Oshie for whatever reason. I know he doesn't come off as a 1st line player, but the 38 career high points is disingenuous as he's missed a few games here and there over the past two seasons. Last year he had a ppg of .54 and mostly played third line bc we had Mojo and Williams on our 2nd line.

Holtby was never usurped. We just have a really capable backup that we're confident in going to when our starter isn't playing as well as we know they can be. Holtby and Talbot have very similar numbers this year, so I don't really get how you can just hate on him and be confident in Talbot in the same breath.

That’s fair I guess, but if he needs to play with McDavid to be a first liner, then he isn’t a first liner. He just isn’t. I’m kind of disregarding him for the moment as we’re close to the same page with him and JP.

It’s not hating on Holtby, I just don’t agree he’s the massive upgrade on Talbot that you do, and pieces like 2nds and B prospects or low firsts won’t really sway me. Talbot’s shown he can be elite. I’m confident he can get back there. Trading a top ten pick for a goalie also coming off a brutal year, that’s also looking to rebound, is not necessary.

You’re using the same logic Habs fans do when they try to sell us on Price + junk for Talbot + Draisaitl. It’s not a good look. All anyone needs out of a starting goalie is ~60 starts a year and .915+ SV%. I don’t believe in overpaying for goalies, either in acquisition cost or in salary.

 

[VTDAlane]

Why?????

Oilers last season had to play a few AHL D in the forward positions (i.e Leggia) because the lack of offensive skill at forward. Jones, Bear, etc. are decent D prospects and there's not much room in the NHL for a D prospect either. Oilers NEED junior/AHL forward prospects not D. Their AHL team had bottom-3 goals for... just zero offensive skill.

Didn't realize the Oilers had a load of d prospects. We could offer someone like Gersich/Fjallby/Barber/Boyd instead if that would float your boat.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Why?????

Oilers last season had to play a few AHL D in the forward positions (i.e Leggia) because the lack of offensive skill at forward. Jones, Bear, etc. are decent D prospects and there's not much room in the NHL for a D prospect either. Oilers NEED junior/AHL forward prospects not D. Their AHL team had bottom-3 goals for... just zero offensive skill.

It’s getting better tho. Yamamoto/Benson/Marody graduating this year, Safin/Maksimov the year after, and Rasanen/McPhee showing well in college. McPhee especially. He just had a hell of a year for an 19 year old - one goal back of Boston College’s leading scorer as a sophomore.

 

[VTDAlane]

That’s fair I guess, but if he needs to play with McDavid to be a first liner, then he isn’t a first liner. He just isn’t. I’m kind of disregarding him for the moment as we’re close to the same page with him and JP.

It’s not hating on Holtby, I just don’t agree he’s the massive upgrade on Talbot that you do, and pieces like 2nds and B prospects or low firsts won’t really sway me. Talbot’s shown he can be elite. I’m confident he can get back there. Trading a top ten pick for a goalie also coming off a brutal year, that’s also looking to rebound, is not necessary.

You’re using the same logic Habs fans do when they try to sell us on Price + junk for Talbot + Draisaitl. It’s not a good look. All anyone needs out of a starting goalie is ~60 starts a year and .915+ SV%. I don’t believe in overpaying for goalies, either in acquisition cost or in salary.

To be fair I think the value is closer here than a lot of the Price threads haha. I guess I put more value in 2 years of Holtby's contract left to 1 year for Talbot as well. The value may not be perfect, but I think this is a good basis if Chia thinks a decent move needs to be made to push EDM back into the playoffs and obviously the Caps need to do some massive retooling if they flame out again. Sometimes a team just needs to be shaken up a bit to wake em up again.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Didn't realize the Oilers had a load of d prospects. We could offer someone like Gersich/Fjallby/Barber/Boyd instead if that would float your boat.

I’m sure you know those guys have almost no value, right?

 

[VTDAlane]

I’m sure you know those guys have almost no value, right?

They definitely have as much value as Mcphee and other forward prospects (besides Yamamoto) you listed.

 

[voxel]

Didn't realize the Oilers had a load of d prospects. We could offer someone like Gersich/Fjallby/Barber/Boyd instead if that would float your boat.

Anybody who can score 20-30 goals in the AHL would be nice but next season we'll get Benson, Hebig, and bunch of college FAs/forwards so it might not be a huge need this offseason.