Proposal: EDM/NYR

[TGWL]

Lets just say the term "far better" is used pretty losely.

Would you prefer superior? More complete? More effective? More desirable?

 

[haveandare]

Your starting point is just not true, they score at the same rate, so you're argument isn't exactly convincing there pal. You're being a homer. If you think they their trade-value on the market isn't comparable you aren't being very objective. I also believe Kreider is slightly better but to say that he's "far better" is most definately a hyperbole. We're comparing a 7th in the draft to a 27th here. The difference in value between Tatar and Kreider isn't that. Especially as he'll come with 1.5 year less term.

Kreider has a higher ppg, so no pal, they don’t score at the same rate.

Players worth depends on their team and how important they are to it. Kreider is worth a lot more to nyr than what Tatar got imo.

 

[bernmeister]

Price for Zib?

Today w/pick estimated at 10OA-ish?
Or after lottery, when it could be higher/lower?
Assume 1OA is protected, otherwise not.

Prob something like...
Zib + Spooner + Namest. + DeAngelo + 2 TB picks [2018 1st + 2019 2nd which may morph into a 1st]
for
EDM 2018 + 2019 1sts + Pulj + Klefbom

Oil got former 6OA 1C who can play 1RW who is under contract decent $ for nice term
middle 6 forward help who will make the club
former first RD with talent who has to learn how to play defense
late 1st this year
late 1st or 2nd next year

Rangers get 2 1sts
Pul who is former 4OA with size and some offense but has not made the jump like Laine
former 1st LD in Klef who was injured/off yr.

numbers of 1sts are ballpark, value acknowledges Rangers are building and Oil want to get back to last season but better, so in that sense is complementary, esp taking into account that anybody other than Dahlin would need to develop on the farm.
Since Spooner + Namest. are RFAs, and Oil will move deadwood for them, deal is close enough cap compliant
DeA and Puul are offsetting elc $.
Zib + Klefbom $ is close enough to cancel
Klefbom is the better D, and right now INEC. However, Oilers can more easily draw from within or get LD alternate, while RD presently in short supply.

if Lindgren/Rykov/Hajek emerge, one of them or Skjei or Klefbom can be moved for RD help.

 

[thadd]

Makes no sense for either team to make this trade. Rangers should be looking for more quality instead of quantity and Edmonton has bad enough depth issues last thing they need to do is trade 2 guys that actually look like they fit on this team.

 

[bernmeister]

Makes no sense for either team to make this trade. Rangers should be looking for more quality instead of quantity and Edmonton has bad enough depth issues last thing they need to do is trade 2 guys that actually look like they fit on this team.

not sure I follow...
you first. EDM sacrifices 2 definite roster now guys, Puulj + Klefbom. Futures, etc aside, they get back 4 guys who are certain to make roster: Zib - the best player in the deal and 1st line F talent, plus 3 who will all have NHL jobs next year --- Namest., Spooner, and DeA. So you are adding 2.
Additionally, Larsson is the rock at 1RD. you are thin at RD after that. Say Bear, yes. Benning is a maybe. You need to move a LD for a RD. Obviously, you'd prefer it be Russell at 4, but him and his NMC are all yours, do not want. Moving Klefbom would be a wince, but you would still have Sekera, and tho he supposedly plays either side, it couldn't hurt to have him function as a natural L. And of course you have Nurse.
So removing a 4+m LD for a RD, elc expiring, works to help with the structural balance of your cap

Of course, the key here is how high do you value Zib? The other 2 are middle 6 depth, but Zib is a higher end piece, and you're paying me to break him up from Kreider. With the right pivot, I see LeoDrai at LW spelling Kreider and Zib at RW = a dominant line. Obviously, McD could be that pivot or you could try to extend that with others for top 2 lines.
Either way, you are adding 3 Fs to the top 3 lines, less 1 in Puulj, = net gain of 2. Puulj may grow to best of the bunch here, that remains to be seen, and results are not likely to be imminent.

Now me. Rangers. They are surrendering actual and potential upside in the HOPE that a couple of years from now, whoever we get with your picks, will = difference makers. That will take time but that is the price we have to pay for the continued arrogance of the win now crowd who kicked the can with minimal attention to rebuild on the fly and instead went EStaal, Clowe, etc.

If the value is close enough to balanced, I think it is a win win.

 

[TFHockey]

not sure I follow...
you first. EDM sacrifices 2 definite roster now guys, Puulj + Klefbom. Futures, etc aside, they get back 4 guys who are certain to make roster: Zib - the best player in the deal and 1st line F talent, plus 3 who will all have NHL jobs next year --- Namest., Spooner, and DeA. So you are adding 2.
Additionally, Larsson is the rock at 1RD. you are thin at RD after that. Say Bear, yes. Benning is a maybe. You need to move a LD for a RD. Obviously, you'd prefer it be Russell at 4, but him and his NMC are all yours, do not want. Moving Klefbom would be a wince, but you would still have Sekera, and tho he supposedly plays either side, it couldn't hurt to have him function as a natural L. And of course you have Nurse.
So removing a 4+m LD for a RD, elc expiring, works to help with the structural balance of your cap

Of course, the key here is how high do you value Zib? The other 2 are middle 6 depth, but Zib is a higher end piece, and you're paying me to break him up from Kreider. With the right pivot, I see LeoDrai at LW spelling Kreider and Zib at RW = a dominant line. Obviously, McD could be that pivot or you could try to extend that with others for top 2 lines.
Either way, you are adding 3 Fs to the top 3 lines, less 1 in Puulj, = net gain of 2. Puulj may grow to best of the bunch here, that remains to be seen, and results are not likely to be imminent.

Now me. Rangers. They are surrendering actual and potential upside in the HOPE that a couple of years from now, whoever we get with your picks, will = difference makers. That will take time but that is the price we have to pay for the continued arrogance of the win now crowd who kicked the can with minimal attention to rebuild on the fly and instead went EStaal, Clowe, etc.

If the value is close enough to balanced, I think it is a win win.

Two 1st round picks? Plus Kelf? Plus Puljujarvi? I can't see the Rangers landing that kind of haul. We can get better players than Zibanejad (a 40-50 point center), and 2 RFAs in Spooner and Namestnikov. and much lower picks. Jebus man, would NYR make that trade if the players were reversed?

 

[north49er]

The only deal I could see would be for Draisaitl, which would involve Zibanejad and then some, which Edmonton probably shouldn't and wouldn't do.

Then again, Chiarelli.

Never underestimate Chia about making a trade like that. Just look at his history. Has there ever been a GM that has traded more great players away? The whole Western Conference is thanking him for trading Taylor Hall. They shudder just thinking of him and McD in the same line up.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Kreider will forever be underrated on HF because his traditional stats aren't as good as they should be. But the guy may be our most important skater. It's not a correlation of 1 but the team fell apart when he got injured. Before that despite being not as deep as years past we've managed. This year he got injured the team fell apart. He came back and despite us selling off half the team the team was as competitive as it could be given the circumstances mostly due to him and his line with Zibanejad. The guy is extremely valuable to us but you'd have to know the nuances of his game. If I hear of a player discussed on HF I go to NHL.com and look at his goals and assists. So I'm not blaming anyone else for not looking into Krieder's game any more than that.

 

[bernmeister]

Two 1st round picks? Plus Kelf? Plus Puljujarvi? I can't see the Rangers landing that kind of haul. We can get better players than Zibanejad (a 40-50 point center), and 2 RFAs in Spooner and Namestnikov. and much lower picks. Jebus man, would NYR make that trade if the players were reversed?

Isolated players reversed in a vacuum does not address the balance of the roster. Sometimes that is immaterial, others it is not.

2 RFAs in Spoons and Namest. have value to Oil because their depth is non-existent. At what price is another story, and that appear to be set by the market. Each commands a 2nd and a small to moderate +. Together that is equivalent of middle or so 1st round value.

You big time underestimate Zib's value who lost some games w/injury this year. He works extremely well with Kreider, who lost significant time. What he achieved was with less than ideal. He figures to dominate w/Draisatil/McDavid. That is a function of supply and demand, but guys like that, add that he is a preferred righty shot, and see how many 1Cs-RWs can be had. Why should I sell Zib to Oil for less if Habs, obviously uber desperate for C, might pay more?

Poolparty is big and WE THINK he has a scoring touch, although this is not certain at NHL level. It is an investment gamble. He could be John LeClair II, or he may not turn into Kreider, but he could skate well enough to be more effective than just outside the crease. We do not know, and there is no way to be sure. In terms of prospects, neither team has much to brag about at the moment, tho NYR made some strides this year. It's Puulj or bust.

Klefbom is not a cap dump, but as I explained he does provide cap balance. Kelf was taken 19th. So was DeAngelo. Big dif in results to date, but raw talent, it is the same ballpark. DeA had bad rap, but proved this year he could be mature, deal w/AV bullspit, and contribute. Playing under Larsson and in competition with Bear would be productive and if you get the right tutor for him, you could be getting a very nice buy low candidate.

Some deals are for = value, made for $ reason or other.
Some are big $ issues so a $ trade, less a hockey trade.

The rest are done for profit.

We are with the cards we have been dealt.
You can hope Oil mgmt will build well, but who knows? And then you are waiting like everyone else 3-5 years for the build to coalesce. You might get lucky like the Bruins and get a McAvoy who develops ahead of schedule, or find a Pasta later. That pushes up the timetable. But that is luck.

You need talent and chemistry to win.

My offer gives you 3 Fs in mid 20s who are known commodities
gives you RD with upside potential
offers something for immediate competition while you have Talbot; also McD is not going anywhere but you don't want to waste these years

In light of what my assets command on the open market, your need to expedite a build, cap reality and other factors, I think it was a fair offer.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Never underestimate Chia about making a trade like that. Just look at his history. Has there ever been a GM that has traded more great players away? The whole Western Conference is thanking him for trading Taylor Hall. They shudder just thinking of him and McD in the same line up.

Although Chiarelli isn't the sharpest tool in the box, I think there might have been more factors with them dealing Hall.

Why else would have Kassian went after him like that last season? To me, I think that says Hall was a locker room problem.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Kelf was taken 19th. So was DeAngelo. Big dif in results to date, but raw talent, it is the same ballpark.

DeAngelo cant carry Klefbom's jock. Also both have played enough that draft position is irrelevant.

 

[bernmeister]

DeAngelo cant carry Klefbom's jock. Also both have played enough that draft position is irrelevant.

Klef is better player right now but does not change what I said about this as part of a bigger package

 

[TFHockey]

We don't need Zibanejad to play on McDavid's wing. We have RNH to do that, and he can flip to Center when we need him to. RNH looked very, very good there. Why would we trade so much for a guy who "might be" as good on Mcdavid's wing as RNH? It seems to me you're not really taking the Oiler's needs into consideration here.
Yes, Edmonton does need depth, no question, but a couple of pending RFAs isn't what they should be looking at.
Puljujarvi is still on his ELC and is playing with the big club. No need to deal him. We require cheap players, like Poolparty, to play on the wing. There really aren't enough needs filled for Edmonton in this deal to trade away so much.
I'd rather the Oilers deal away 1st round picks for players like OEL, not Zibanejad.
All in all a swing and a miss.

 

[General Disarray]

Price for Zib?

I'd rather keep Zib than have an overpriced goalie

 

[bernmeister]

We don't need Zibanejad to play on McDavid's wing. We have RNH to do that, and he can flip to Center when we need him to. RNH looked very, very good there. Why would we trade so much for a guy who "might be" as good on Mcdavid's wing as RNH? It seems to me you're not really taking the Oiler's needs into consideration here.
Yes, Edmonton does need depth, no question, but a couple of pending RFAs isn't what they should be looking at.
Puljujarvi is still on his ELC and is playing with the big club. No need to deal him. We require cheap players, like Poolparty, to play on the wing. There really aren't enough needs filled for Edmonton in this deal to trade away so much.
I'd rather the Oilers deal away 1st round picks for players like OEL, not Zibanejad.
All in all a swing and a miss.

Swing and a miss is fair enough to extent that it is a subjective opinion and you are entitled to it. That said I disagree w/your conclusion.

Zib > RNH and him playing bookend w/Kreider shows how good he would be as your 1RW. He is an actual righty shot, and I prefer him to RNH in every facet of the game. He is also cheaper than RNH.
I envisioned RNH as part of your solution whether than is contributing or by trade to a team like Montreal desperate for pivots. I saw the add but the option to deal is yours.

You need the RFAs since you do not have alternates.
You can buy them or alternates, but you need to step up or stay where you are.

OEL is a risky indulgence: high cost, short term, lots of $ on new deal.
Zib is good value and term

 

[thadd]

not sure I follow...
you first. EDM sacrifices 2 definite roster now guys, Puulj + Klefbom. Futures, etc aside, they get back 4 guys who are certain to make roster: Zib - the best player in the deal and 1st line F talent, plus 3 who will all have NHL jobs next year --- Namest., Spooner, and DeA. So you are adding 2.
Additionally, Larsson is the rock at 1RD. you are thin at RD after that. Say Bear, yes. Benning is a maybe. You need to move a LD for a RD. Obviously, you'd prefer it be Russell at 4, but him and his NMC are all yours, do not want. Moving Klefbom would be a wince, but you would still have Sekera, and tho he supposedly plays either side, it couldn't hurt to have him function as a natural L. And of course you have Nurse.
So removing a 4+m LD for a RD, elc expiring, works to help with the structural balance of your cap

Of course, the key here is how high do you value Zib? The other 2 are middle 6 depth, but Zib is a higher end piece, and you're paying me to break him up from Kreider. With the right pivot, I see LeoDrai at LW spelling Kreider and Zib at RW = a dominant line. Obviously, McD could be that pivot or you could try to extend that with others for top 2 lines.
Either way, you are adding 3 Fs to the top 3 lines, less 1 in Puulj, = net gain of 2. Puulj may grow to best of the bunch here, that remains to be seen, and results are not likely to be imminent.

Now me. Rangers. They are surrendering actual and potential upside in the HOPE that a couple of years from now, whoever we get with your picks, will = difference makers. That will take time but that is the price we have to pay for the continued arrogance of the win now crowd who kicked the can with minimal attention to rebuild on the fly and instead went EStaal, Clowe, etc.

If the value is close enough to balanced, I think it is a win win.

Since Edmonton has more left handed d-men I might be open to the idea of Edmonton trading Klefbom, but not after a down year. Can't afford to trade away top 4 d-men when their value is low. With Edmonton's luck Klefbom would go out and score 20 goals and flirt with 50 points the season after being traded.

 

[north49er]

Although Chiarelli isn't the sharpest tool in the box, I think there might have been more factors with them dealing Hall.

Why else would have Kassian went after him like that last season? To me, I think that says Hall was a locker room problem.

I'm not sure anything Kassian did or does is good. But hey, Hall has made the Devils' locker room very happy.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Today w/pick estimated at 10OA-ish?
Or after lottery, when it could be higher/lower?
Assume 1OA is protected, otherwise not.

Prob something like...
Zib + Spooner + Namest. + DeAngelo + 2 TB picks [2018 1st + 2019 2nd which may morph into a 1st]
for
EDM 2018 + 2019 1sts + Pulj + Klefbom

Oil got former 6OA 1C who can play 1RW who is under contract decent $ for nice term
middle 6 forward help who will make the club
former first RD with talent who has to learn how to play defense
late 1st this year
late 1st or 2nd next year

Rangers get 2 1sts
Pul who is former 4OA with size and some offense but has not made the jump like Laine
former 1st LD in Klef who was injured/off yr.

numbers of 1sts are ballpark, value acknowledges Rangers are building and Oil want to get back to last season but better, so in that sense is complementary, esp taking into account that anybody other than Dahlin would need to develop on the farm.
Since Spooner + Namest. are RFAs, and Oil will move deadwood for them, deal is close enough cap compliant
DeA and Puul are offsetting elc $.
Zib + Klefbom $ is close enough to cancel
Klefbom is the better D, and right now INEC. However, Oilers can more easily draw from within or get LD alternate, while RD presently in short supply.

if Lindgren/Rykov/Hajek emerge, one of them or Skjei or Klefbom can be moved for RD help.

That deal makes Edmonton so incredibly worse off.

Not trading a top ten pick + another first + Klefbom and Puljujarvi for Zibanejad and Namestnikov and replacement level junk.

 

[XXIV97]

Not trading a top 10 pick for Kreider. He's a hell of player but now worth a top 10 pick in a deep draft like this one.

I would be okay in moving Benson+ or Yam for him but not Pool Party.

 

[Beacon]

Oilers: 2018 2nd 2019 1st and 3rd, Kassian, Strome
For
Rangers: Namestnikov, Kreider,

Rangers gets more pieces for their rebuild, Oilers get pieces to win now.
Thoughts?

The Rangers would be nuts to trade Kreider.

Counter: MZA at 50% and Namestnikov for the Ed 2018 first. MZA is already underpaid and at 50%, he's the best deal per dollar in the league outside a couple ELCs. MZA is a legit first liner. The #9/10 pick that Ed is likely to get has an 80% chance of not being a significant NHLer. Go to hockeydb and look at past 9/10 or 8-11 picks. The Rangers give up an underpaid first liner and a middle-6 guy in return for a lottery ticket with which they are hoping to hit the top-3 lottery, which Ed has a 16% of plus about a 20% chance that the 9-10 pick will become a top-6 forward.

 

[EDMOILERS9729]

The Rangers would be nuts to trade Kreider.

Counter: MZA at 50% and Namestnikov for the Ed 2018 first. MZA is already underpaid and at 50%, he's the best deal per dollar in the league outside a couple ELCs. MZA is a legit first liner. The #9/10 pick that Ed is likely to get has an 80% chance of not being a significant NHLer. Go to hockeydb and look at past 9/10 or 8-11 picks. The Rangers give up an underpaid first liner and a middle-6 guy in return for a lottery ticket with which they are hoping to hit the top-3 lottery, which Ed has a 16% of plus about a 20% chance that the 9-10 pick will become a top-6 forward.

Who is MZA lol

 

[Beacon]

Who is MZA lol

Zuccarello

 

[EDMOILERS9729]

Zuccarello

Yeah ok. Hell no.

 

[tradenashnow]

Oilers: 2018 2nd 2019 1st and 3rd, Kassian, Strome
For
Rangers: Namestnikov, Kreider,

Rangers gets more pieces for their rebuild, Oilers get pieces to win now.
Thoughts?

No on every level from NY. Strome stinks. So does Kassian.