Eddie Lack vs Ryan Miller: Who to Choose Moving Forward - Part II

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Cupless44

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The HAwks did it mainly by haveing an accessive amount of picks, it gets said all the time, they passed on Saad what 3 times before they took him. They had the chances to gamble. We when trying to stock the pipeline have 1 pick in the top 100 something picks.

Teruvainen..drafted 18 overall...ready to step onto the 2nd line next year after the Hawks are forced to move Sharp for Cap reasons.

When have the Canucks ever had the system in place to do that? Gillis promised it when hired, couldn't deliver it.
 

Cupless44

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Opinion on Mike Milbury? :laugh:

I think when someone says "Benning is a moron" they don't mean he's actually a moron, but that on the scale of "compete GM to moron GM", he's a moron GM. My sense of him is that he's smart in an intuitive hockey sort of way, but he's ill equipped to handle the challenges of the modern NHL (cap system, advanced analytics, etc.). He also seems stubborn. But I'm not going to explain my nuanced stance on him every damn time he does something stupid. Why would I?

My point about Lack is that you keep saying it was a bad move to sign Miller. I assume, then, that you think it's a bad move to keep him over Lack, but you're resigned to accepting it is the status quo. I get not wanting to complain about it, but arguing that it makes sense/Benning is competent repeatedly means you come across as in favour of these moves. What's the point of arguing against them so vociferously?

I'm also not arguing that the value for Lack should be higher. I'm arguing that if the value for Lack is what it is (mid 2nd), there's not much value in trading him, particularly if Benning wants to make the playoffs next year. It seems that when people defend Benning they'll point to his mandate to win now and to his building for the future interchangeably to defend different moves, which makes him nearly infallible. It's an irksome practice.

To be perfectly honest, I'd be fine if the mandate was to build for 2017-2018 while trying to compete now if the "compete now" moves were good moves. But they're not -- and that leads me to believe that when he gets to 2017-2018, he'll be making the same mis-evaluations when it matters. That's process, and it's why I care about his contracts now, whether they'll effect the team during a rebuild in 2019 or whatever.

You got me there! Milbury is a moron:)

I don't even know why I got into defending Benning. I hate the same moves as your guys do when it comes down to it.

Maybe you nailed it for me. I am one who would like to see a long term approach instead of this make the playoff short sighted plan. Personally the sheer mediocrity this team has become, how stale it has become to watch the same old players has done me in. I could care less if we trade Lack or Miller and really need relief from Higgins, Burrows, Bieksa etc. You could trade them all except Horvat and I am good. I watch the young talent being stockpiled by Edmonton, Calgary, even Phoenix, LA who might get Reilly, will draft 13, have Doughty and even got Toffoli and Pearson late... and I see some dark days ahead if we don't get on the prospect program quick. That is why I applaud Benning for at least recognizing that and trying to do something about it. Where he will actually lose me is this draft and off season if he doesn't move out some stale veteran deadwood to get back in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of a draft class I love. If the same stale line-up that showed up against the Flames in the playoffs is trotted out next year then I am fully on the hate Benning wagon.

I think there are a few fans like me who will support a rebuild to watch some fresh younger, faster, bigger, players with some energy and grit
 

Proto

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You got me there! Milbury is a moron:)

I don't even know why I got into defending Benning. I hate the same moves as your guys do when it comes down to it.

Maybe you nailed it for me. I am one who would like to see a long term approach instead of this make the playoff short sighted plan. Personally the sheer mediocrity this team has become, how stale it has become to watch the same old players has done me in. I could care less if we trade Lack or Miller and really need relief from Higgins, Burrows, Bieksa etc. You could trade them all except Horvat and I am good. I watch the young talent being stockpiled by Edmonton, Calgary, even Phoenix, LA who might get Reilly, will draft 13, have Doughty and even got Toffoli and Pearson late... and I see some dark days ahead if we don't get on the prospect program quick. That is why I applaud Benning for at least recognizing that and trying to do something about it. Where he will actually lose me is this draft and off season if he doesn't move out some stale veteran deadwood to get back in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of a draft class I love. If the same stale line-up that showed up against the Flames in the playoffs is trotted out next year then I am fully on the hate Benning wagon.

I think there are a few fans like me who will support a rebuild to watch some fresh younger, faster, bigger, players with some energy and grit

I don't disagree with a single thing you said, which, incidentally, is part of my issue with Benning. If not a full rebuild, I wanted an aggressive, smart re-tool, but that requires a ruthless approach to cap space and veteran acquisitions (value UFA's/waiver acquisitions) so that actual asset capital (veterans, etc.) can be spent making the team younger. The "now" moves that Benning has made have been largely flops or at the expense of future assets.

That part irks me. If Benning has a good draft and starts moving off assets to a more aggressive and smarter rebuild, I'm more than willing to change my opinion of him.
 

arsmaster*

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What if the deadwood is moved out and replaced with worse players?

Gone is Bieksa and Stanton replaced with Franson and Bartkowski.

You'd still applaud that? The change for change thing doesn't make sense to me. Improve. Not change. That's what I want.

I don't want to rush kids like virtanen. That reeks of marketing not a hockey decision.

The problem is we're handcuffed. The NTC's will be the blame for Benning's guys. The people who aren't impressed with Benning's moves and his explanations of his moves will wonder why we're adding new worse players to the stale core instead of players that are better.


-----

One comment has been bugging me with regards to Jason garrison.

Ok number 4, good number 5.

What would that make sbisa? Passable number6 elite #9?
 

Cupless44

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I don't disagree with a single thing you said, which, incidentally, is part of my issue with Benning. If not a full rebuild, I wanted an aggressive, smart re-tool, but that requires a ruthless approach to cap space and veteran acquisitions (value UFA's/waiver acquisitions) so that actual asset capital (veterans, etc.) can be spent making the team younger. The "now" moves that Benning has made have been largely flops or at the expense of future assets.

That part irks me. If Benning has a good draft and starts moving off assets to a more aggressive and smarter rebuild, I'm more than willing to change my opinion of him.

Agreed. No question the Sbisa and Dorsett contracts go against that grain.
 

Cupless44

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What if the deadwood is moved out and replaced with worse players?

Gone is Bieksa and Stanton replaced with Franson and Bartkowski.

You'd still applaud that? The change for change thing doesn't make sense to me. Improve. Not change. That's what I want.

I don't want to rush kids like virtanen. That reeks of marketing not a hockey decision.

The problem is we're handcuffed. The NTC's will be the blame for Benning's guys. The people who aren't impressed with Benning's moves and his explanations of his moves will wonder why we're adding new worse players to the stale core instead of players that are better.


-----

One comment has been bugging me with regards to Jason garrison.

Ok number 4, good number 5.

What would that make sbisa? Passable number6 elite #9?

The name Bartkowski has me worried. I wonder what number he will be lol
 

tantalum

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What if the deadwood is moved out and replaced with worse players?

Gone is Bieksa and Stanton replaced with Franson and Bartkowski.

You'd still applaud that? The change for change thing doesn't make sense to me. Improve. Not change. That's what I want.


You made me puke in my mouth some. Franson and Bartkowski. I wouldn't be shocked if that is exactly what we see. Sbisa, Franson, Bartkowski as the 2-5 guys should terrify everyone who actually want to see a team improve and not pull a intentional tank.

One comment has been bugging me with regards to Jason garrison.

Ok number 4, good number 5.

What would that make sbisa? Passable number6 elite #9?
Hey what the one thing the blueline was missing all year?

look at that...an "OK" #4. And well, an OK #5. And that sums it up for me. A second round pick was wanted soooo bad to be able to get someone as awesome as Vey it was worth making the blueline much worse.
 

arsmaster*

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Teruvainen..drafted 18 overall...ready to step onto the 2nd line next year after the Hawks are forced to move Sharp for Cap reasons.

When have the Canucks ever had the system in place to do that? Gillis promised it when hired, couldn't deliver it.

Toews is 27.

Henrik is 33/34.

I can't understand how people measure Gillis' veteran laden Canucks team pushing for a cup to Chicago's elite young roster with unbelievably valuable players that needed casting off just to field rosters every season.

It's like apples and ketchup for comparison.

Who's are Ladd, byfuglien, Versteeg, Leddy etc that we can trade for boat loads of picks?

Oh right we're trading the non valuable players for mediocre returns to make up for the picks we gave up for mediocre seasoned prospects.

TL/DR: a comparison to Chicago makes no sense.

Detroit seems like a better comp, and we're still not matching up. The last few drafts look good but this teams scouts have sucked hind tit for decades.
 

Proto

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And the justification/rationalization has people terrified.

I don't blame them.

For me, I'd be okay with minor on-ice downgrades if it went like this (in theory):

1. Move a defenseman who is 30+ and is an 8/10 quality player
2. Slightly overpay a veteran/UFA defenseman who is a 6.5 or 7/10 to a short-term deal
or
Make a few (2-3) smart waiver-wire acquisitions of guys who might be around that range
3. Make sure the assets coming back in those moves are future assets. Don't use the asset from #1 to get assets resembling #2.

Rinse and repeat. It's sort of like the one move I like from Benning: Vrbata. It allowed the team to move Kesler, but Benning gummed up the future element of that trade in my estimation (no need to rehash that now).

I'm okay with the team getting slightly worse or hoping that they'll only get better if youth arrive and over-perform, provided that this is happening while the team is acquiring a plethora of young talent. Right now it's a half-measure from Benning and that puts us squarely in the worst of both worlds.

If he adjusts and starts to approach this differently, I'll be more than happy to change my mind...
 

arsmaster*

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For me, I'd be okay with minor on-ice downgrades if it went like this (in theory):

1. Move a defenseman who is 30+ and is an 8/10 quality player
2. Slightly overpay a veteran/UFA defenseman who is a 6.5 or 7/10 to a short-term deal
or
Make a few (2-3) smart waiver-wire acquisitions of guys who might be around that range
3. Make sure the assets coming back in those moves are future assets. Don't use the asset from #1 to get assets resembling #2.

Rinse and repeat. It's sort of like the one move I like from Benning: Vrbata. It allowed the team to move Kesler, but Benning gummed up the future element of that trade in my estimation (no need to rehash that now).

I'm okay with the team getting slightly worse or hoping that they'll only get better if youth arrive and over-perform, provided that this is happening while the team is acquiring a plethora of young talent. Right now it's a half-measure from Benning and that puts us squarely in the worst of both worlds.

If he adjusts and starts to approach this differently, I'll be more than happy to change my mind...

Well said.
 

arttk

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I have my concerns but I am going to show some patience and not label the guy a bozo after 12 months.

Or maybe I have been around for the Jack Gordons, Jake Milfords, Harry Neales and seen worse lol

I felt the same way until the Sbisa extension and the WD 1-2-3-4 crap.
 

racerjoe

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Teruvainen..drafted 18 overall...ready to step onto the 2nd line next year after the Hawks are forced to move Sharp for Cap reasons.

When have the Canucks ever had the system in place to do that? Gillis promised it when hired, couldn't deliver it.

You missed the point, and took one guy, who was drafted three drafts ago, maybe Shink or McCaan.

I felt the same way until the Sbisa extension and the WD 1-2-3-4 crap.

Almost exactly what I said in one of these threads today.
 

arttk

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You missed the point, and took one guy, who was drafted three drafts ago, maybe Shink or McCaan.



Almost exactly what I said in one of these threads today.

Yeah, I was like ok, let's wait till the offseason and see where this is going to go. Then Sbisa happened and now I am thinking, I don't trust these guys one bit.
 

Cupless44

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Toews is 27.

Henrik is 33/34.

I can't understand how people measure Gillis' veteran laden Canucks team pushing for a cup to Chicago's elite young roster with unbelievably valuable players that needed casting off just to field rosters every season.

It's like apples and ketchup for comparison.

Who's are Ladd, byfuglien, Versteeg, Leddy etc that we can trade for boat loads of picks?

Oh right we're trading the non valuable players for mediocre returns to make up for the picks we gave up for mediocre seasoned prospects.

TL/DR: a comparison to Chicago makes no sense.

Detroit seems like a better comp, and we're still not matching up. The last few drafts look good but this teams scouts have sucked hind tit for decades.

I think you missed my point. Chicago haven't had high draft picks while contending just like Gillis didn't. The difference is they nailed a few.
 

Cupless44

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You missed the point, and took one guy, who was drafted three drafts ago, maybe Shink or McCaan.



Almost exactly what I said in one of these threads today.

More than one guy.

Saad? Another example how they added talent without high draft picks.

Andrew Shaw is pretty effective out there too.

They have guys PLAYING for them and helping them win. Not sure why you bring up Shink who is a pretty big question mark at best right now.

if guys don't want excuses made for Benning then you certainly cant make excuses for Gillis's overall drafting record. He had a 7 year crack at this
 

Drop the Sopel

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What if the deadwood is moved out and replaced with worse players?

Gone is Bieksa and Stanton replaced with Franson and Bartkowski.

You'd still applaud that? The change for change thing doesn't make sense to me. Improve. Not change. That's what I want.

Yes, that is still a good swap for where this organization is, though it won't be Franson, it would probably be Ehrhoff. The goal should be to move roster players, then turn around and use the cap space opened up to replace them in free agency where possible. If you can stay competitive while going this route, you've killed 2 birds with one stone. But obviously it's a tough thing to do, as free agency isn't where you typically find good value.

Bonino is a valuable player, with a tremendous contract - but if Benning could sign Soderberg in free agency to replace him, then flip Bonino for futures, it's a move you have to look to make. Same goes for Lack, Bieksa, Higgins, Burrows and other vets on the team...

If Benning looks to free agency for a dman, it's going to be Ehrhoff IMO. He already tried to sign him last summer, and has repeatedly said he wants to improve the puckmoving and skating ability from the backend.

So Bieksa out for a 2nd, Ehrhoff in to replace him. Sounds good to me.
 

arttk

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I think you missed my point. Chicago haven't had high draft picks while contending just like Gillis didn't. The difference is they nailed a few.

They had a stacked team where they had 1st line/1st paring players like Buff and Ladd playing on the 3rd line. Tallon ****ed up on their contracts by forgetting to fax in the qualifying offers and he had to trade them away and even then they got a boat load of picks that allowed them to draft guys like Saad.

We were never as deep because our drafting sucked dating back to the Burke years and even if we were to trade our guys, we would've never gotten the picks that Chicago got for Ladd, Buff and etc.

Chicago didn't get to draft high but they got a boat load of picks.
 

racerjoe

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More than one guy.

Saad? Another example how they added talent without high draft picks.

Andrew Shaw is pretty effective out there too.

They have guys PLAYING for them and helping them win. Not sure why you bring up Shink who is a pretty big question mark at best right now.

if guys don't want excuses made for Benning then you certainly cant make excuses for Gillis's overall drafting record. He had a 7 year crack at this

Which plays into exactly what I said, they got those guys by having multiple picks they passed on Saad 3 times before the drafted him. They gambled on him because they had so many picks.
 

Cupless44

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They had a stacked team where they had 1st line/1st paring players like Buff and Ladd playing on the 3rd line. Tallon ****ed up on their contracts by forgetting to fax in the qualifying offers and he had to trade them away and even then they got a boat load of picks that allowed them to draft guys like Saad.

We were never as deep because our drafting sucked dating back to the Burke years and even if we were to trade our guys, we would've never gotten the picks that Chicago got for Ladd, Buff and etc.

Chicago didn't get to draft high but they got a boat load of picks.

You have to hit some draft picks. They did we didn't.

Saad in the 2nd, Shaw in the 5th, Kruger in the 5th, Halmersson in the 4th, Teruvainen late first.

Getzlaf 19...Perry 28...Gillis ever do that?
 

Cupless44

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Which plays into exactly what I said, they got those guys by having multiple picks they passed on Saad 3 times before the drafted him. They gambled on him because they had so many picks.

Make all the excuses and rationalizations you want...the good teams draft well...the Canucks under Gillis didn't

Don't even know why that is a discussion. The results are there for all Canuck fans to painfully see
 

a Fool

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I think there are some creative solutions to the goaltending situation.

a) Retain 50% on Miller in exchange for a 7th round pick. I'm sure the Sharks would consider that. 3M veteran back up for the young guy they plan to bring in.

b) Buy out Miller. 2.6M cap hit the next two years, and 1.6M the two years after that.

c) If Miller ***** the bed try to work some LTIR magic e.g. "the knee will never be the same again." He can go home and spend time with his family and still make money. Lack can take over. Markstrom would be traded in this situation.
 

racerjoe

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Make all the excuses and rationalizations you want...the good teams draft well...the Canucks under Gillis didn't

Don't even know why that is a discussion. The results are there for all Canuck fans to painfully see

I have never claimed the Canucks drafting to be good, I have however said you can't compare it to a team like Chicago, who has had a ton more picks than we had.
 

arttk

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You have to hit some draft picks. They did we didn't.

Saad in the 2nd, Shaw in the 5th, Kruger in the 5th, Halmersson in the 4th, Teruvainen late first.

Getzlaf 19...Perry 28...Gillis ever do that?

Well you are also ignoring the first round misses the Hawks have. They had a ton of draft picks in those years, certainly increased their chances of getting a player.
We didn't have a lot if draft picks because MG had to flip them to get players to help fuel the cup run, something Chicago didn't have to do because of good drafting years prior to Bowman's takeover.

Seems like we have some late round gems like Corrado, Cassels, Hutton, Grenier and undrafted gems like Lack and Tanev. I mean you might as well treat undrafted players like free draft picks.

I agree MG didn't draft well in 08,09,10 and 11 but then you can't ignore that he didnt have a lot of picks because he needed to use them to get players.
 
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