Eddie Lack vs Ryan Miller: Who to Choose Moving Forward - Part II

[Cupless44]

Exactly. Which is why Benning is posturing to position Lack as the next best option. Hey, you lost out on #1, don't let #2 also slide through your fingers!

No point trying to blow smoke up other GMs butts if he's already been speaking with them and everyone is saying "let's see what happens with Talbot first". Speaking about Lack being the second best option available IS pumping up his tires.

For sure. GMs deal with a little more reality in the real NHL market than Canuck fans who over estimate Lack's value and tier in the NHL because they love him and he is a nice guy.

 

[Cupless44]

Other sources such as Friedman have claimed he is the second option, its not smake when it is true...

Yet Edmonton has also been linked to Niemi. San Jose is linked to interest in Bernier

 

[banme*]

Other sources such as Friedman have claimed he is the second option, its not smake when it is true...

That's what he's saying man. He's saying that blowing smoke would be claiming that Lack is the best goalie on the market (whether that's true is up for debate, but GMs around the league may not feel that way).

 

[Samzilla]

That's what he's saying man. He's saying that blowing smoke would be claiming that Lack is the best goalie on the market (whether that's true is up for debate, but GMs around the league may not feel that way).

Yeah, Benning doesn't blow smoke. If he feels Sbisa's a top-4 dman, he's gonna tell you Sbisa's a top-4 dman. If he thinks Lack's the second best goalie option, he's gonna say that.

 

[Proto]

For sure. GMs deal with a little more reality in the real NHL market than Canuck fans who over estimate Lack's value and tier in the NHL because they love him and he is a nice guy.

Or, you know, NHL teams routinely mis-evaluate goaltending. This endless appeal to authority fallacy that you're committing makes it hard to have a serious discussion, to be honest. If that's your opinion, you should stop posting here, because by default your opinion is just fan nonsense that could never hold up to the authority of a real NHL man

Besides, for all the flippant remarks, you still haven't really put a value on a 2nd rounder/how you thing it matches up to Lack, nor have you given much of an argument for why you'd keep Miller over Lack. Have you even made any sort of assessment of the goaltending situation? Honest question. It seems like you're more interested in attacking a generalized view of anyone who wants to keep Lack than in making any real argument here.

 

[racerjoe]

Or, you know, NHL teams routinely mis-evaluate goaltending. This endless appeal to authority fallacy that you're committing makes it hard to have a serious discussion, to be honest. If that's your opinion, you should stop posting here, because by default your opinion is just fan nonsense that could never hold up to the authority of a real NHL man

Besides, for all the flippant remarks, you still haven't really put a value on a 2nd rounder/how you thing it matches up to Lack, nor have you given much of an argument for why you'd keep Miller over Lack. Have you even made any sort of assessment of the goaltending situation? Honest question. It seems like you're more interested in attacking a generalized view of anyone who wants to keep Lack than in making any real argument here.

I agree, and will voice my exact thoughts here and now to help.

I have disliked many of the moves, but always wanted to give JB at least a year. However the last few things really pushed it over the edge. Alone I don't think they are a huge deal, but together it paints a terrible picture.

I would have shipped a few UFA's out that I wasn't going to re-sign for some draft picks. There is absolutely no reason to not do it. Signing both Dorsett and Sbisa, this really was the breaking point. It means most likely we are trading Higgins or Hansen, who are both much better and much more effective. It hurts our team in we now can't get FA help, can't be buyers in trades from teams that must shed salary. Basically we are trading Dorsett a good 4th liner for Higgins an excellent 3rd liner.

Keeping Miller... More than anything its that cap hit again, doing what I just said, the fact he has been outplayed by our other option who is younger, and the payoff really isn't big enough. Its for a lottery ticket that won't help us for at least the tenure that JB is here.

I go back to when JB took over this team and the team really did have a bright future despite a terrible finish to the season. Lots of cap space, a huge piece to move, a high draft pick, and while not a great prospect cupboard, the chance to make it pretty good.

 

[VC]

Other sources such as Friedman have claimed he is the second option, its not smake when it is true...

4. A couple of GMs indicated Cam Talbot is probably the top choice among cap-friendly, potential No. 1 options. Another suggested Lack second and Robin Lehner third.

It depends on what teams consider the likes of Bernier, Anderson, Niemi, Lehtonen and the like rank. Not all teams are looking at the inexperienced starting goaltender, some will be looking for a veteran.

Friedman isn't saying that Lack is cut and dry the second best option out there, just among a certain class of goaltender.

 

[Cupless44]

Or, you know, NHL teams routinely mis-evaluate goaltending. This endless appeal to authority fallacy that you're committing makes it hard to have a serious discussion, to be honest. If that's your opinion, you should stop posting here, because by default your opinion is just fan nonsense that could never hold up to the authority of a real NHL man

Besides, for all the flippant remarks, you still haven't really put a value on a 2nd rounder/how you thing it matches up to Lack, nor have you given much of an argument for why you'd keep Miller over Lack. Have you even made any sort of assessment of the goaltending situation? Honest question. It seems like you're more interested in attacking a generalized view of anyone who wants to keep Lack than in making any real argument here.

When posters stoop to calling professionals idiots it suggests that they think they know more than guys that have done this for a living for years and have access to information you will never have access to in a million years. So in that sense I do give the benefit of the doubt to the guys meeting the challenges of actually running an NHL team over fans who see what they want to see, and make judgements with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I don't see any point in arguing about keeping Miller over Lack because there is nothing to discuss there. Miller is here next year, move on. I never liked the signing but it is what it is. Why incessantly complain about something that isn't going to change for 2 years? Given the reality that Lack or Markstrom are moving, I just want to see the Canucks get the best asset back possible. I prefer to look forward and see how this stale team can be improved.

A 2nd rounder has value that matches up to Lack because that is the goaltending market in the NHL. If you haven't noticed by now goalies do not bring home huge ransoms. I like Lack more than Miller as much as the next guy but I think his resume and value in the NHL is over rated on this board. He is clearly not the first option on the market. If Cam Talbot only fetches the 33rd pick, then you can be sure any 2nd round pick is a good return for Lack.

 

[arttk]

When posters stoop to calling professionals idiots it suggests that they think they know more than guys that have done this for a living for years and have access to information you will never have access to in a million years. So in that sense I do give the benefit of the doubt to the guys meeting the challenges of actually running an NHL team over fans who see what they want to see, and make judgements with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I don't see any point in arguing about keeping Miller over Lack because there is nothing to discuss there. Miller is here next year, move on. I never liked the signing but it is what it is. Why incessantly complain about something that isn't going to change for 2 years? Given the reality that Lack or Markstrom are moving, I just want to see the Canucks get the best asset back possible. I prefer to look forward and see how this stale team can be improved.

A 2nd rounder has value that matches up to Lack because that is the goaltending market in the NHL. If you haven't noticed by now goalies do not bring home huge ransoms. I like Lack more than Miller as much as the next guy but I think his resume and value in the NHL is over rated on this board. He is clearly not the first option on the market. If Cam Talbot only fetches the 33rd pick, then you can be sure any 2nd round pick is a good return for Lack.

Considering the Canucks have been terrible at drafting and scouting for the past couple decades, yeah I think fans can question the guys that are in charge.

With your logic, the professional scouts working for the Canucks would be infallible and their decisions are by default better than all of us who are not professionals. But in reality, take any draft list on this board and the success rate yearly is >>>>>>> than the actual list our scouts come up with.

 

[Cupless44]

Considering the Canucks have been terrible at drafting and scouting for the past couple decades, yeah I think fans can question the guys that are in charge.

With your logic, the professional scouts working for the Canucks would be infallible and their decisions are by default better than all of us who are not professionals. But in reality, take any draft list on this board and the success rate yearly is >>>>>>> than the actual list our scouts come up with.

You want to torch Ron Delorme, be my guest. Benning has been on the job for 12 months. He has aggressively pursued adding young prospects more in 1 year than Gillis did in 7 years. Given this is the 2nd oldest team in the league with a bunch of average players I am good with that vision. Like all GMs some prospects will hit some will miss.

Yes the Sbisa contract is hard to understand and there is better use of 6 million than Miller but I can live with that if he drafts well and develops young players. That is the only thing that will allow this team to ever climb back into the top level. I really don't care if we don't have 5 million to overpay some average UFA in a shallow market that isn't going to make a difference anyways.

Revamping the prospect pipeline is the most important thing to me because that is the place the best players come from and that is how cups are won. It is also why this team is old and stale. Too many years with no good young players pushing from within and adding talent to the roster.

 

[Barney Gumble]

He has aggressively pursued adding young prospects more in 1 year than Gillis did in 7 years.

Two different mandates.

One GM was expected to compete for the Cup - the other isn't (though who knows what Aquaman really wants).

And Benning should be so lucky to get guy that'll be as good as Tanev, Lack or Horvat (or even Kassian).

I really don't care if we don't have 5 million to overpay some average UFA in a shallow market that isn't going to make a difference anyways.

One can always deal such players at the trading deadline for more picks/prospects. That is, if said player is marketable (which guys like Miller certainly ain't at his current contract).

It's how the Leafs got a 1st round pick with a guy like Santo as part of the package.

 

[arttk]

You want to torch Ron Delorme, be my guest. Benning has been on the job for 12 months. He has aggressively pursued adding young prospects more in 1 year than Gillis did in 7 years. Given this is the 2nd oldest team in the league with a bunch of average players I am good with that vision. Like all GMs some prospects will hit some will miss.

Yes the Sbisa contract is hard to understand and there is better use of 6 million than Miller but I can live with that if he drafts well and develops young players. That is the only thing that will allow this team to ever climb back into the top level. I really don't care if we don't have 5 million to overpay some average UFA in a shallow market that isn't going to make a difference anyways.

Revamping the prospect pipeline is the most important thing to me because that is the place the best players come from and that is how cups are won. It is also why this team is old and stale. Too many years with no good young players pushing from within and adding talent to the roster.

When JB makes giant blunders like Sbisa and Miller, it makes us really question whether he knows wtf he is actually doing.
This is not engineering/science where things are pretty black and white. Being a "professional" manager doesn't make all his decisions infallible and not questionable.

 

[Cupless44]

Two different mandates.

One GM was expected to compete for the Cup - the other isn't (though who knows what Aquaman really wants).

And Benning should be so lucky to get guy that'll be as good as Tanev, Lack or Horvat (or even Kassian).


One can always deal such players at the trading deadline for more picks/prospects. That is, if said player is marketable (which guys like Miller certainly ain't at his current contract).

It's how the Leafs got a 1st round pick with a guy like Santo as part of the package.

Good points. Assets are assets.

Not excusing Gillis on the drafting though. The best contending teams are still drafting good prospects and getting push from below. No Better example than the Hawks. Cap has forced them to reboot but they keep on winning by drafting well to replace the pricy veterans they are forced to move for cap reasons. Hopefully we will start to see that now with an improving prospect pool.

 

[Cupless44]

When JB makes giant blunders like Sbisa and Miller, it makes us really question whether he knows wtf he is actually doing.
This is not engineering/science where things are pretty black and white. Being a "professional" manager doesn't make all his decisions infallible and not questionable.

I hear ya. I hate some of those decisions also. Never said otherwise.

 

[racerjoe]

It depends on what teams consider the likes of Bernier, Anderson, Niemi, Lehtonen and the like rank. Not all teams are looking at the inexperienced starting goaltender, some will be looking for a veteran.

Friedman isn't saying that Lack is cut and dry the second best option out there, just among a certain class of goaltender.

The more expeirenced goalies in this case are irrelevent. They are not in the same market as the goalies we are talking about. It would be like saying player X is the most coveted center college free agent. But lets also talk of Brad Richards a free agent.

Having said that, it brings up more of a case that we should be trying to sshop Miller.

When posters stoop to calling professionals idiots it suggests that they think they know more than guys that have done this for a living for years and have access to information you will never have access to in a million years. So in that sense I do give the benefit of the doubt to the guys meeting the challenges of actually running an NHL team over fans who see what they want to see, and make judgements with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I don't see any point in arguing about keeping Miller over Lack because there is nothing to discuss there. Miller is here next year, move on. I never liked the signing but it is what it is. Why incessantly complain about something that isn't going to change for 2 years? Given the reality that Lack or Markstrom are moving, I just want to see the Canucks get the best asset back possible. I prefer to look forward and see how this stale team can be improved.

A 2nd rounder has value that matches up to Lack because that is the goaltending market in the NHL. If you haven't noticed by now goalies do not bring home huge ransoms. I like Lack more than Miller as much as the next guy but I think his resume and value in the NHL is over rated on this board. He is clearly not the first option on the market. If Cam Talbot only fetches the 33rd pick, then you can be sure any 2nd round pick is a good return for Lack.

This is the problem. It is not good asset management. You are losing any trade you are making simply because of a soft market. Why trade the better asset when you can trade a lesser asset? 2>6 or 3>5, and we are chosing to to 2>6. all it does is hurt the team.

You want to torch Ron Delorme, be my guest. Benning has been on the job for 12 months. He has aggressively pursued adding young prospects more in 1 year than Gillis did in 7 years. Given this is the 2nd oldest team in the league with a bunch of average players I am good with that vision. Like all GMs some prospects will hit some will miss.

Yes the Sbisa contract is hard to understand and there is better use of 6 million than Miller but I can live with that if he drafts well and develops young players. That is the only thing that will allow this team to ever climb back into the top level. I really don't care if we don't have 5 million to overpay some average UFA in a shallow market that isn't going to make a difference anyways.

Revamping the prospect pipeline is the most important thing to me because that is the place the best players come from and that is how cups are won. It is also why this team is old and stale. Too many years with no good young players pushing from within and adding talent to the roster.

Yes the man who JB put back in charge of our scouting after a great 13 draft. Also lets bring in Weisbrod. another drafting "guru". Now why are people upset again about JB?

 

[arttk]

I hear ya. I hate some of those decisions also. Never said otherwise.

Then why would you choose to believe in the guy who has made those decision.
I am not into blind faith.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Not excusing Gillis on the drafting though.

Yeah Gillis inherited a pretty crappy drafting organization but had plenty of time to address it (which he didn't really do until near the end).

Don't have alot of negative things to say about Benning in this area (it's his handling of contracts that I take issue with).

 

[racerjoe]

Good points. Assets are assets.

Not excusing Gillis on the drafting though. The best contending teams are still drafting good prospects and getting push from below. No Better example than the Hawks. Cap has forced them to reboot but they keep on winning by drafting well to replace the pricy veterans they are forced to move for cap reasons. Hopefully we will start to see that now with an improving prospect pool.

The HAwks did it mainly by haveing an accessive amount of picks, it gets said all the time, they passed on Saad what 3 times before they took him. They had the chances to gamble. We when trying to stock the pipeline have 1 pick in the top 100 something picks.

 

[VC]

The more expeirenced goalies in this case are irrelevent. They are not in the same market as the goalies we are talking about. It would be like saying player X is the most coveted center college free agent. But lets also talk of Brad Richards a free agent.

Not really as there has been mentioned with both classes of goaltenders. going off the top of my head, the Sharks have been linked with both as have others. Your college free agent to Brad Richards is off as the age range from younger than Lack and Talbot to a couple of years older. Just different experiences. There is a cross market.

 

[racerjoe]

Not really as there has been mentioned with both classes of goaltenders. going off the top of my head, the Sharks have been linked with both as have others. Your college free agent to Brad Richards is off as the age range from younger than Lack and Talbot to a couple of years older. Just different experiences. There is a cross market.

Just as a team that needs a center would explore both options, the college guy and the free agent. Yes I without a doubt made it extreme, but more to illustrate a point. There was just a tweet in another thread, SJ want a goalie 25 or younger, this would take lack out of their range, but put Markstrom on it. Sure theymay kick the tires, on Lack, but they would want what they want.

 

[Cupless44]

The more expeirenced goalies in this case are irrelevent. They are not in the same market as the goalies we are talking about. It would be like saying player X is the most coveted center college free agent. But lets also talk of Brad Richards a free agent.

Having said that, it brings up more of a case that we should be trying to sshop Miller.



This is the problem. It is not good asset management. You are losing any trade you are making simply because of a soft market. Why trade the better asset when you can trade a lesser asset? 2>6 or 3>5, and we are chosing to to 2>6. all it does is hurt the team.



Yes the man who JB put back in charge of our scouting after a great 13 draft. Also lets bring in Weisbrod. another drafting "guru". Now why are people upset again about JB?

It is not a soft market. It is the goaltender market. It has been that way for a while.

 

[Cupless44]

Then why would you choose to believe in the guy who has made those decision.
I am not into blind faith.

I have my concerns but I am going to show some patience and not label the guy a bozo after 12 months.

Or maybe I have been around for the Jack Gordons, Jake Milfords, Harry Neales and seen worse lol

 

[Cupless44]

Yeah Gillis inherited a pretty crappy drafting organization but had plenty of time to address it (which he didn't really do until near the end).

Don't have alot of negative things to say about Benning in this area (it's his handling of contracts that I take issue with).

Agreed on both points.

At Gillis's very first press conference after being hired he pontificated quite arrogantly about how poor the drafting and player development was on this team and how it would all change.

 

[racerjoe]

It is not a soft market. It is the goaltender market. It has been that way for a while.

Even if this is the case we are still trading a 2 for a 6 instead of a 3 for a 5.

 

[Proto]

When posters stoop to calling professionals idiots it suggests that they think they know more than guys that have done this for a living for years and have access to information you will never have access to in a million years. So in that sense I do give the benefit of the doubt to the guys meeting the challenges of actually running an NHL team over fans who see what they want to see, and make judgements with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I don't see any point in arguing about keeping Miller over Lack because there is nothing to discuss there. Miller is here next year, move on. I never liked the signing but it is what it is. Why incessantly complain about something that isn't going to change for 2 years? Given the reality that Lack or Markstrom are moving, I just want to see the Canucks get the best asset back possible. I prefer to look forward and see how this stale team can be improved.

A 2nd rounder has value that matches up to Lack because that is the goaltending market in the NHL. If you haven't noticed by now goalies do not bring home huge ransoms. I like Lack more than Miller as much as the next guy but I think his resume and value in the NHL is over rated on this board. He is clearly not the first option on the market. If Cam Talbot only fetches the 33rd pick, then you can be sure any 2nd round pick is a good return for Lack.

Opinion on Mike Milbury?

I think when someone says "Benning is a moron" they don't mean he's actually a moron, but that on the scale of "compete GM to moron GM", he's a moron GM. My sense of him is that he's smart in an intuitive hockey sort of way, but he's ill equipped to handle the challenges of the modern NHL (cap system, advanced analytics, etc.). He also seems stubborn. But I'm not going to explain my nuanced stance on him every damn time he does something stupid. Why would I?

My point about Lack is that you keep saying it was a bad move to sign Miller. I assume, then, that you think it's a bad move to keep him over Lack, but you're resigned to accepting it is the status quo. I get not wanting to complain about it, but arguing that it makes sense/Benning is competent repeatedly means you come across as in favour of these moves. What's the point of arguing against them so vociferously?

I'm also not arguing that the value for Lack should be higher. I'm arguing that if the value for Lack is what it is (mid 2nd), there's not much value in trading him, particularly if Benning wants to make the playoffs next year. It seems that when people defend Benning they'll point to his mandate to win now and to his building for the future interchangeably to defend different moves, which makes him nearly infallible. It's an irksome practice.

To be perfectly honest, I'd be fine if the mandate was to build for 2017-2018 while trying to compete now if the "compete now" moves were good moves. But they're not -- and that leads me to believe that when he gets to 2017-2018, he'll be making the same mis-evaluations when it matters. That's process, and it's why I care about his contracts now, whether they'll effect the team during a rebuild in 2019 or whatever.